Christians resisting God?

[steaver]

Rom. 13 tells us to obey the government... .

But does it not give a reason why? That because it is a "good" to do what is "just"? Isn't Romans 13 speaking of obeying righteous government??

If what the colonies did was right, why didn't the early Christians try to overthrow Rome? They certainly were being persecuted, even taken to be killed by lions. But they did not rebel.

Perhaps God did not lay it on their hearts to rise up! God displays His power in many forms, sometimes he asks us to die and sometimes He asks us to stand up and defend or conquer an evil.

Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. Does this mean that Christians who become soldiers and fight are sinning against God?

 

[Alcott]

If what the colonies did was right, why didn't the early Christians try to overthrow Rome? They certainly were being persecuted, even taken to be killed by lions. But they did not rebel.

While I'm not checking this out just right away, I remember World History from school in which the texts said the Christians-- meaning later generations, in the 2nd and 3rd centuries-- continued to be despised and persecuted by Rome because they refused to pay taxes, refused to serve in the army, et al. That's rebelling, at least in a form. But even if this scenario is not true (or less true than those history texts said), Rome was a much stronger power before the Christians came along than after. In fact, the dividing line between rise and decline of Rome is just about when Christians first became a growing minority, in the latter 1st century. By the time Christians came to be prevalent, Rome was much weaker and headed toward downfall. It seems Christians took down a major world power, even without an organized military rebellion, in large part by rebelling non-violently, at least some methods of which were against their own teachings. But should we still bow to Rome ?

 

[Marcia]

But does it not give a reason why? That because it is a "good" to do what is "just"? Isn't Romans 13 speaking of obeying ighteous government??

No, of course not. That's not what it says! You are the first person that I know who ever suggested that.

Perhaps God did not lay it on their hearts to rise up! God displays His power in many forms, sometimes he asks us to die and sometimes He asks us to stand up and defend or conquer an evil.

How do you know He led the colonists to rebel? There is no objective evidence for that. And God would not lead people to go against His word.

Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. Does this mean that Christians who become soldiers and fight are sinning against God?

Turn the other cheek related to insults, not attacks. It meant to not return insult for insult.

Anyway, this is not about war as such but rebelling against a leader.

 

[Marcia]

While I'm not checking this out just right away, I remember World History from school in which the texts said the Christians-- meaning later generations, in the 2nd and 3rd centuries-- continued to be despised and persecuted by Rome because they refused to pay taxes, refused to serve in the army, et al. That's rebelling, at least in a form.

If they did not pay taxes, they were going against the Bible. Jesus told the Jews to pay the tax to the Romans, who were over them. Jesus even paid it.

But even if this scenario is not true (or less true than those history texts said), Rome was a much stronger power before the Christians came along than after. In fact, the dividing line between rise and decline of Rome is just about when Christians first became a growing minority, in the latter 1st century. By the time Christians came to be prevalent, Rome was much weaker and headed toward downfall. It seems Christians took down a major world power, even without an organized military rebellion, in large part by rebelling non-violently, at least some methods of which were against their own teachings. But should we still bow to Rome ?

So they did not disobey Rom. 13, which is my point.

I don't know what you mean by "bow to Rome."

 

[steaver]

How do you know He led the colonists to rebel? There is no objective evidence for that.
.

The powers that be are created by God. How do you see God forming the USA?

And God would not lead people to go against His word.

You said God lead Israel to rebel against kingdoms to establish them as the power that be. God told them at times to kill even the children. Did God lead them against His word 'thou shall not kill'?

:jesus:

 

[Alcott]

I don't know what you mean by "bow to Rome."

I mean, since Christians did some things against scripture that helped bring down the empire, should we recognize the empire as still in power, according to those who think no rebellion of any kind is godly? Or, as part of Catholic theology, that the empire has continued in the body of the Roman church, is being noncatholic ungodly by those same scriptures? [as well as that the reformation was an unscriptural rebellion?]

 

[Marcia]

The powers that be are created by God. How do you see God forming the USA?

I don't think we can see how God "formed" the USA. Some of the founders claimed God but were Deists. I don't believe in a Deist God. I don't know that there is any evidence that the USA was "formed" by God more than any other country/government.

You said God lead Israel to rebel against kingdoms to establish them as the power that be. God told them at times to kill even the children. Did God lead them against His word 'thou shall not kill'?

We know God led Israel against these kingdoms because it's recorded in the Bible.

No, God never leads people to go against His word. "Thou shalt not kill" means to not murder. God used Israel to execute judgment on pagan nations that had turned away from God. This is all over the OT.

23"For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them.
24"You shall not worship their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their deeds; but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their sacred pillars in pieces." Ex 23:23-24

 

[Marcia]

I mean, since Christians did some things against scripture that helped bring down the empire, should we recognize the empire as still in power, according to those who think no rebellion of any kind is godly? Or, as part of Catholic theology, that the empire has continued in the body of the Roman church, is being noncatholic ungodly by those same scriptures? [as well as that the reformation was an unscriptural rebellion?]

Should we recognize what empire in power?

The reformation, in its aspects that were not violent (I think there was fighting on both sides), was not an overthrow of a government. In fact, Luther set out to reform the Catholic Church, not depart from it.

 

[steaver]

I don't think we can see how God "formed" the USA. Some of the founders claimed God but were Deists. I don't believe in a Deist God. I don't know that there is any evidence that the USA was "formed" by God more than any other country/government.

.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


The biblical "evidence" is strikingly clear. God forms the "powers that be". Thus far you have rejected all the theories I have put forth. I put them forth to seek an answer. I am not promoting them as a matter of fact. I would like to understand how God works in men to bring forth His "powers that be" so I can explain it to others who ask. Do you have any suggestions to present? Just nay saying all the attempts to reconcile the two does not help sharpen the iron.

God formed all the powers that be, this I can be certain of. This includes the evil ones as well. This country was formed through a "declaration of independence" which must have come from God. Now was the declaration a sin? This is the question I seek an answer for?

If God does the forming, as the srcipture declares, then it is God who put it in the heart of men to conquer other men or fight to break free of other men. There is plenty of "evidence" of this found in the scriptures.

I have to accept the scripture that states it is God who forms all of these powers that be, both good and evil. Does this excuse men like Hitler? No, God used an evil man to carry out His agenda, just like He did Pharaoh. God even hardened Pharaoh's heart so he could not obey Him and let the people go. Does this mean that God caused Pharaoh's disobedience and thus God caused Pharaoh to sin?

Now here is the question, do you think God seen the founding fathers as an evil or as a good for His plan to form the USA?

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


The biblical "evidence" is strikingly clear. God forms the "powers that be". Thus far you have rejected all the theories I have put forth. I put them forth to seek an answer. I am not promoting them as a matter of fact. I would like to understand how God works in men to bring forth His "powers that be" so I can explain it to others who ask. Do you have any suggestions to present? Just nay saying all the attempts to reconcile the two does not help sharpen the iron.

Why would I or anyone have more information than what is in the Bible about how God brings forth His "powers that be?" God does not let us in on it.

God formed all the powers that be, this I can be certain of. This includes the evil ones as well. This country was formed through a "declaration of independence" which must have come from God. Now was the declaration a sin? This is the question I seek an answer for?

I think I gave my thoughts on that.

If God does the forming, as the srcipture declares, then it is God who put it in the heart of men to conquer other men or fight to break free of other men. There is plenty of "evidence" of this found in the scriptures.

You are getting into other waters here - free will, determinism, etc. Does God allow people to form governments or does He lead them into it? I do not think God leads people into sin.

Now here is the question, do you think God seen the founding fathers as an evil or as a good for His plan to form the USA?

I think you need to rephrase the question - the grammar makes it confusing for me.

 

[steaver]

I do not think God leads people into sin.

.

2Ch 18:18¶Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and [on] his left.
2Ch 18:19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
2Ch 18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And [the LORD] said, Thou shalt entice [him], and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do [even] so.
2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.



Do you see that it was the LORD who commanded the evil spirit to entice Ahab to war by placing a lying spirit in the mouths of 400 prophets?

Ahab was wicked and God wanted Ahab destroyed.

God does not use sin just on the wicked. What about Job? Job was a righteous man yet God enticed satan to bring sin upon him.

You say God does not lead people into sin. All things were created by Him and for Him, for the glory of Christ, even satan and sin brings God glory. It was satan and sin that murdered our Lord Jesus Christ. If this ultimate sin had never happened were would we be? God foreordained the sacrifice of His Son before He ever created anything.

If God is sovereign, and He is, then God is in control of everything. For His purposes and for His glory. This includes the evil, God is in control.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

2Ch 18:18¶Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and [on] his left.
2Ch 18:19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
2Ch 18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And [the LORD] said, Thou shalt entice [him], and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do [even] so.
2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.



Do you see that it was the LORD who commanded the evil spirit to entice Ahab to war by placing a lying spirit in the mouths of 400 prophets?

Ahab was wicked and God wanted Ahab destroyed.

God does not use sin just on the wicked.

You say God does not lead people into sin. All things were created by Him and for Him, for the glory of Christ, even satan and sin brings God glory. It was satan and sin that murdered our Lord Jesus Christ. If this ultimate sin had never happened were would we be? God foreordained the sacrifice of His Son before He ever created anything.

If God is sovereign, and He is, then God is in control of everything. For His purposes and for His glory. This includes the evil, God is in control.

What about James 1:13?

Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

None of the examples above are God leading people to sin; they are judgments (punishments). God sent a lying spirit because God controls angels. But this is not making someone sin; these are judgments.

And even if you think God makes people sin, that does not make sin okay. Otherwise, God is acting against His word. He tells us not to rebel against our rulers; therefore, He will not lead us to do so. He may allow it; but that is not the same thing.

What about Job? Job was a righteous man yet God enticed satan to bring sin upon him.

God did not entice Satan - Satan challenged God about Job. Of course, God knew this would happen - he was trapping Satan in his own scheme.

 

[steaver]

None of the examples above are God leading people to sin; they are judgments (punishments). God sent a lying spirit because God controls angels. But this is not making someone sin; these are judgments.

.

Are you reading the text Marcia?

God asked for a spirit to entice Ahab.

The word of the LORD states that it is God who placed the lying spirit into the prophets so they would lie.

You can't just ignore the word of God that does not sound all warm and fuzzy. It is what it is. Stating that it is a judgment does not change the truths stated in the word of God about God causing people to sin to fulfill His purposes.

God did not entice Satan - Satan challenged God about Job. Of course, God knew this would happen - he was trapping Satan in his own scheme.

I believe if you go back and re-read it you will find that it was God who enticed satan concerning Job.

Job 1:8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

:thumbsup:

 

[Marcia]

Are you reading the text Marcia?

God asked for a spirit to entice Ahab.

The word of the LORD states that it is God who placed the lying spirit into the prophets so they would lie.

You can't just ignore the word of God that does not sound all warm and fuzzy. It is what it is. Stating that it is a judgment does not change the truths stated in the word of God about God causing people to sin to fulfill His purposes.



I believe if you go back and re-read it you will find that it was God who enticed satan concerning Job.

Job 1:8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

:thumbsup:

God sent the spirit who enticed Ahab.

God did not entice Ahab to lie. An evil spirit did. In fact, God said, "Who will entice Ahab...?" And the fallen angel said he would. Ahab was evil anyway, wasn't he? Was he a good man that God somehow made into a liar?

30 Ahab son of Omri did more evil in the eyes of the LORD than any of those before him. 31 He not only considered it trivial to commit the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, but he also married Jezebel daughter of Ethbaal king of the Sidonians, and began to serve Baal and worship him. 32 He set up an altar for Baal in the temple of Baal that he built in Samaria. 33 Ahab also made an Asherah pole and did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than did all the kings of Israel before him. 1 Kings 16

I see this as a judgment on an evil king.

You are ignoring James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

Either God's word is contradicting itself or what you say is not true.

I maintain that you are not interpreting the texts you have posted correctly. God cannot abide sin; and God tells us that He does not tempt anyone. The fact he used a demon to entice Ahab shows this. God is righteous and hates sin. He uses evil men for his purposes, but that does not mean He condones evil.

Nothing you've posted is evidence that God caused men to disobey His word in Rom. 13.

If you want to keep believing that a holy and righteous God causes men to sin and that He goes against his word in James 1:13, no one can stop you, I guess.

 

[steaver]

God sent the spirit who enticed Ahab.

God did not entice Ahab to lie. An evil spirit did. In fact, God said, "Who will entice Ahab...?" And the fallen angel said he would. Ahab was evil anyway, wasn't he? Was he a good man that God somehow made into a liar?


I see this as a judgment on an evil king.

.

The spirit, which God sent, caused the four hundred prophets to lie to Ahab. Ahab did not lie.

You are ignoring James 1:13

I am well aware of James 1:13, but it does not cause me to reject the clear word of the Lord concerning His sovereinty over sin expressed for us in the OT. We need to find harmony between the two, not dismiss one over the other. Just calling it "judgment", which some of it is, does not change the means God used for that judgment.

Either God's word is contradicting itself or what you say is not true.

I maintain that you are not interpreting the texts you have posted correctly. God cannot abide sin; and God tells us that He does not tempt anyone. The fact he used a demon to entice Ahab shows this. God is righteous and hates sin. He uses evil men for his purposes, but that does not mean He condones evil.

God is righteous, God hates sin, God uses evil for His purposes, God does not condone evil, God cannot abide in sin. AMEN!

The word of the LORD still stands. You dismiss the OT accounts of God using sin, even causing sin, by saying they are judgments. Yes, many are judgments, but this does not change the fact that God used sin to bring them and to bring Him glory.

Nothing you've posted is evidence that God caused men to disobey His word in Rom. 13.

True. But I have posted evidence that God is sovereign even in causing sin to bring about His judgments and to fulfill His purposes.

If you want to keep believing that a holy and righteous God causes men to sin and that He goes against his word in James 1:13, no one can stop you, I guess.

You need not go there my dear sister. I believe God is perfectly holy and righteous, never goes against His word and cannot sin.

So I am left with the task of making sense of the OT accounts of God causing sin and harmonizing that with James 1:13.

I cannot dismiss one for the other, Both are truth and there must be a solution. Maybe God will never reveal it to me, but I will ask and pray. I will not dismiss any of God's word that declares His full sovereinty over all things, even sin.

Do you notice how very few are willing to post on this matter? That is because it is a difficult topic and it is easier just to dismiss those OT accounts rather than truly deal with them. I know you say "judgments", however true, it does not deal with the declarations made concerning God's hand in bringing about those judgments through the use of sin.

You did not address Job. God enticed satan to engage concerning Job. What judgment would this be for? Job was a righteous man who eshewed evil.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

The spirit, which God sent, caused the four hundred prophets to lie to Ahab. Ahab did not lie.

Yes, I mispoke on that. But it was the demon who enticed. This is not God tempting man. I never said God doesn't use the evil deeds of man.

I am well aware of James 1:13, but it does not cause me to reject the clear word of the Lord concerning His sovereinty over sin expressed for us in the OT. We need to find harmony between the two, not dismiss one over the other. Just calling it "judgment", which some of it is, does not change the means God used for that judgment.

I have found the harmony - God does not go against His word. The examples you posted do not show God leading men into sin - he used evil men and let them sin. This is like hardening Pharaoh's heart; Pharoah was already rebellious before the text says God hardened his heart. God used what was there already for his purposes.

The word of the LORD still stands. You dismiss the OT accounts of God using sin, even causing sin, by saying they are judgments. Yes, many are judgments, but this does not change the fact that God used sin to bring them and to bring Him glory.

I never said God did not use sinful men. I said God does not lead people to sin. I believe he allows Satan to entice and tempt people, and that could be a test and/or it could be God allowing evil to run its course in someone for His purposes.

True. But I have posted evidence that God is sovereign even in causing sin to bring about His judgments and to fulfill His purposes.

It depends on what you mean by "cause." We could get philosophical and talk about "first causes" and all that, but I am not good at it and have no time for it at all. God does not lead people into sin; he allows it or he allows sin to run its course in people.

So I am left with the task of making sense of the OT accounts of God causing sin and harmonizing that with James 1:13.

I cannot dismiss one for the other, Both are truth and there must be a solution. Maybe God will never reveal it to me, but I will ask and pray. I will not dismiss any of God's word that declares His full sovereinty over all things, even sin.

Maybe your concept of sovereignty includes the belief that man cannot sin without God causing it? If so, I do not share that view.

Do you notice how very few are willing to post on this matter? That is because it is a difficult topic and it is easier just to dismiss those OT accounts rather than truly deal with them. I know you say "judgments", however true, it does not deal with the declarations made concerning God's hand in bringing about those judgments through the use of sin.

I think people are not posting because the last 3 pages or so it's just been us. When I see that over 2 pages in a thread are just between 2 people, I usually don't read it. And if I'm one of the people, I end it soon, as I will here. We are getting nowhere, imo.

You did not address Job. God enticed satan to engage concerning Job. What judgment would this be for? Job was a righteous man who eshewed evil.

I disagree that God enticed Satan. God does not need to entice Satan. He knew Satan wanted to challenge Job's faith and God allowed him to do it. It was a set-up from God. I never said this was a judgment -- or if I did, I did not mean it about Job.

 

[steaver]

He knew Satan wanted to challenge Job's faith and God allowed him to do it. It was a set-up from God.

Where did you read this in the scriptures?

THe beggining of the account goes like this....

Job 1:8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God began the conversation. Where does it say what you say?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

But it was the demon who enticed. This is not God tempting man. I never said God doesn't use the evil deeds of man.

God commands the evil angels. In fact, they cannot do any evil without God's consent. God called upon the host of heaven asking for an evil spirit to entice Ahab. The spirit that stepped up to the task told God it would entice Ahab to sin by placing a lying spirit in the mouths of 400 prophets. God then commanded the spirit to do that very thing.

I am searching for harmony between this fact about God enticing Ahab to sin and James 1:13 which states that God does not tempt any man. I'm sorry Marcia, but I don't see your pov as accomplishing this task. You seem to just dismiss the very words spoken about Ahab. I do not dismiss James and I equally cannot dismiss Chronicles.

Somehow, God can cause a person to sin, yet He Himself is totally righteous in doing so and without sin.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


But then James says that God tempts no man. I need to explore and pray more about this tempting James is speaking of. It appears to be a direct contradiction to Chronicles, but since that cannot be, there must be a solution God has not yet revealed to me.

Has He revealed it to anyone else who has been reading this thread?

 

[Marcia]

Back to the issue......God commands believers not to rebel against their rulers.

Therefore, we are to obey that. We are told to obey God throughout the Bible.

Therefore, for whatever reason people rebel against a ruler or government, it goes against Romans 13.

 

[steaver]

Back to the issue......God commands believers not to rebel against their rulers.

Therefore, we are to obey that. We are told to obey God throughout the Bible.

Therefore, for whatever reason people rebel against a ruler or government, it goes against Romans 13.

We have been on issue.....here is the issue;

a) Rebellion forms new governments. Without rebellion against an existing government there would never be any new governments.

b) Col 1:16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Did the founding fathers create the USA or did God?

Scripture states it was God. God used these men and we know that the founding fathers rebelled against the King.

Why did they rebel? Because God wanted them to so that a new power would be established. Yet God is without blame and without sin!

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

God's ways are always righteous, even when He commanded men to kill even the children because their parents had sinned.

:jesus: