Christians, War, and Violence

[Adonia]

How do you balance living in a violent world with the teachings of Christ? For starters, I believe God is the same God of war as always. But the role of believers is different in the New Covenant. That is, we love our enemies, turn the other cheek when attacked. We do not resist violence but abandon it to the Lord who says vengeance belongs to him.

God uses good people to defeat the evil that exists on this earth. Without all those good men who fought and defeated the Nazi's and Japanese in WW2, people would still be being sent to gas chambers and in Asia the rapes and killings would still be going on.

So I do not serve in the military or become a police officer whose life depends on doing the opposite of these. If an intruder tries to kill me or my family, I would rather we die upholding Jesus’ words than disobey only to suffer death from old age. Any alternative views on this?

Police officers save lives and the military protects the nation. In the event of an intruder, I don't think much of a man who would stand by and see his womenfolk tortured, raped, and then murdered by some sick individual who invaded his household to do such things. How you could stand by and do nothing while your 10 year old little girl is violently sexually assaulted and then murdered is beyond my comprehension. I would rather die in the act of protecting my family from such things than to stand by and do nothing.

You have twisted the scriptures in an attempt to justify up your own cowardice. You and the disgraced Sheriff's Deputy from Florida who refused to enter the Parkland school and try to save lives are obviously cut from the same cloth.

 

[InTheLight]

ARBCA • 1689 Confession

Confession 24:1-2

"God, the supreme Lord and King of all the world, hath ordained civil magistrates to be under him, over the people, for his own glory and the public good; and to this end hath armed them with the power of the sword, for defence and encouragement of them that do good, and for the punishment of evil doers. It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of a magistrate when called there unto; in the management whereof, as they ought especially to maintain justice and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each kingdom and commonwealth, so for that end they may lawfully now, under the New Testament wage war upon just and necessary occasions."

"1689" Dave picks and chooses what he wants to follow in 1689 Declaration of Faith.

 

[Hollow Man]

"1689" Dave picks and chooses what he wants to follow in 1689 Declaration of Faith.

Apparently, his family isn't worth defending.

 

[robycop3]

Shortly after I was saved, I resigned as a cop, not because of sonetimes having to use violence, but because of some common practices in the Dept. of using dishonesty to get around rules of evidence to obtain convictions.

I won't hesitate to defend family or myself, if necessary, against violence with whatever it takes. An intruder would be greeted with either a 12 G. shotgun blast of 000 shot, or a fusillade of .45 ACP "Home Defense" rounds.

Jesus told the disciples to buy some swprds, and as they already had two, He said that was enough. He intended that they should defend themselves against bandits. And Jesus Himself VIOLENTLY expelled the merchants from the temple grounds.

EVERY man (or single mom) should defend his/her family with whatever it takes! I believe to not do so is a sin.

 

[1689Dave]

God uses good people to defeat the evil that exists on this earth. Without all those good men who fought and defeated the Nazi's and Japanese in WW2, people would still be being sent to gas chambers and in Asia the rapes and killings would still be going on.



Police officers save lives and the military protects the nation. In the event of an intruder, I don't think much of a man who would stand by and see his womenfolk tortured, raped, and then murdered by some sick individual who invaded his household to do such things. How you could stand by and do nothing while your 10 year old little girl is violently sexually assaulted and then murdered is beyond my comprehension. I would rather die in the act of protecting my family from such things than to stand by and do nothing.

You have twisted the scriptures in an attempt to justify up your own cowardice. You and the disgraced Sheriff's Deputy from Florida who refused to enter the Parkland school and try to save lives are obviously cut from the same cloth.

We can sentimentalize all we want. But we must support violence in any form for Christians as being acceptable from the NT.

 

[1689Dave]

This is your thread. You haven't provided even one verse to suggest that Christ teaches we should stand by and let somebody kill our family.

The burden of proof is on you, troll.

We need for you to prove your point from the NT.

 

[1689Dave]

Shortly after I was saved, I resigned as a cop, not because of sonetimes having to use violence, but because of some common practices in the Dept. of using dishonesty to get around rules of evidence to obtain convictions.

I won't hesitate to defend family or myself, if necessary, against violence with whatever it takes. An intruder would be greeted with either a 12 G. shotgun blast of 000 shot, or a fusillade of .45 ACP "Home Defense" rounds.

Jesus told the disciples to buy some swprds, and as they already had two, He said that was enough. He intended that they should defend themselves against bandits. And Jesus Himself VIOLENTLY expelled the merchants from the temple grounds.

EVERY man (or single mom) should defend his/her family with whatever it takes! I believe to not do so is a sin.

This is common thought but Christians never defended themselves other than verbally in the NT.

“And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” Revelation 6:10–11 (KJV 1900)
What if these had the common attitude as many today?

 

[Hollow Man]

We need for you to prove your point from the NT.

No, troll. This is your thread and your assertion. The burden of proof is on you.

This is common thought but Christians never defended themselves other than verbally in the NT.

Yeah, and...? Do you know the difference between descriptive and prescriptive verses? We don't get our theology from what people in scripture do, but what the scriptures tell us to do.

“And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” Revelation 6:10–11 (KJV 1900)
What if these had the common attitude as many today?

So, you don't know the difference between descriptive and prescriptive verses, and you don't know the difference between martyrs and victims of violent crime, and you can't cite any scripture to back up your assertions, but you expect us to take you seriously when you tell us what you think Christ would have us do? I think we're getting close to Proverbs 26:4 time.

Tell us how you can use violence while following Jesus.

Simple. If I'm following Jesus and somebody breaks into my home and threatens my family, I can shoot them. Two rounds, center mass ought to do it.

It's martyrdom if for following Christ.

So, if it's martyrdom if it's for following Christ, then why did you equate them to victims of a violent crime? ​

​

 

[1689Dave]

Yeah, and...? Do you know the difference between descriptive and prescriptive verses? We don't get our theology from what people in scripture do, but what the scriptures tell us to do.



Are you really that dumb that you don't know the difference between martyrs and victims of violent crime?

Tell us how you can use violence while following Jesus.

 

[1689Dave]

Yeah, and...? Do you know the difference between descriptive and prescriptive verses? We don't get our theology from what people in scripture do, but what the scriptures tell us to do.



Are you really that dumb that you don't know the difference between martyrs and victims of violent crime?

It's martyrdom if for following Christ.

 

[robycop3]

Tell us how you can use violence while following Jesus.

Same way JESUS HIMSELF used it !

 

[Hollow Man]

As bad as Dave is doing in this thread, he's getting destroyed on ChristianForums for posting the same topic and the same Unbiblical, illogical arguments.

 

[GoodTidings]

How do you balance living in a violent world with the teachings of Christ? For starters, I believe God is the same God of war as always. But the role of believers is different in the New Covenant. That is, we love our enemies, turn the other cheek when attacked. We do not resist violence but abandon it to the Lord who says vengeance belongs to him.

So I do not serve in the military or become a police officer whose life depends on doing the opposite of these. If an intruder tries to kill me or my family, I would rather we die upholding Jesus’ words than disobey only to suffer death from old age. Any alternative views on this?

But you enjoy the freedom and liberty that is bought and paid for by the blood and lives of those who protect your freedoms. If you believe that being in the military or the police is to violate the teachings of Jesus, then you violate those teachings just the same if you are going to enjoy the freedoms and liberties and civil rights that those people have sworn to protect.

It is really no different than enjoying stolen property. If you own a TV that was stolen from someone else, you are morally obligated to cease your enjoyment of it and return it to the proper owner. It is immoral for you to enjoy freedoms provided to you by those who claim violate the teachings of Jesus.

In fact, if we take your sloppy exegesis even further, it is immoral and unchristian for you to live in a nation that was birthed by war and violence.

You should lead by example and denounce your citizenship and refuse to enjoy the liberty that was won in the US Revolution. If not, then you do not live by the strength of your convictions.

 

[Rob_BW]

It's martyrdom if for following Christ.

It's martyrdom to die professing your faith, extremely common in the early church, and certainly continued throughout the ages.

But having some lunatic barge into your house at night isn't the same as being put on trial for being a Christian.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Same way JESUS HIMSELF used it !

What violence did Jesus use??? ,concerning the NC.?I know Jesus is God. What was commanded to do under the OC, it was the Word who spoke it. For whoever hears God is Hearing His Word. As Ecclesiastes says though;
Ecclesiastes 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

A new season came with the Birth in flesh of our God as our Christ.

Isaiah 9:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
those who are born of Christ are born in and of His season which is peace.

Why? Isaiah 9:5 is clear:…5For every trampling boot of battle and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire.

Of the increase of His kingdom which is of peace , there shall be no end. That means as people are born of Him they are His peace . That is the kingdom which shall never end!

7Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness( from that time -HIS BIRTH ) and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.…

The battle is not ours , it is the Lord's.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4).

Why the statement of plowshares and pruninghooks?
1Corinthians 3:8-9
God's Fellow Workers
…8He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
Matthew 9:36-38
The Lord of the Harvest
…36When He saw the crowds, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37Then He said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.( If not for the few heaven would have none) 38Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into His harvest.”…

That is the reason for the Isaiah 2:4 statements and imagery.
2 Corinthians 10:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Ephesians 6:11-18 King James Version (KJV)
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Peace in Yeshua Hameshiach!

 

[1689Dave]

It's martyrdom to die professing your faith, extremely common in the early church, and certainly continued throughout the ages.

But having some lunatic barge into your house at night isn't the same as being put on trial for being a Christian.

It remains martyrdom if you die for the right reason. In this case upholding Jesus' commands for practicing non violence.

 

[1689Dave]

But you enjoy the freedom and liberty that is bought and paid for by the blood and lives of those who protect your freedoms. If you believe that being in the military or the police is to violate the teachings of Jesus, then you violate those teachings just the same if you are going to enjoy the freedoms and liberties and civil rights that those people have sworn to protect.

It is really no different than enjoying stolen property. If you own a TV that was stolen from someone else, you are morally obligated to cease your enjoyment of it and return it to the proper owner. It is immoral for you to enjoy freedoms provided to you by those who claim violate the teachings of Jesus.

In fact, if we take your sloppy exegesis even further, it is immoral and unchristian for you to live in a nation that was birthed by war and violence.

You should lead by example and denounce your citizenship and refuse to enjoy the liberty that was won in the US Revolution. If not, then you do not live by the strength of your convictions.

If you do not lay up treasure, just move on when war breaks out. This is what the early New Covenant believers did.

 

[1689Dave]

Same way JESUS HIMSELF used it !

War from driving money changers out of the temple in fulling prophecy?

 

[OfLivingWaters]

War from driving money changers out of the temple in fulling prophecy?

And did not entail killing anyone but more of a spanking that one gives a disobedient child.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

But you enjoy the freedom and liberty that is bought and paid for by the blood and lives of those who protect your freedoms. If you believe that being in the military or the police is to violate the teachings of Jesus, then you violate those teachings just the same if you are going to enjoy the freedoms and liberties and civil rights that those people have sworn to protect.

It is really no different than enjoying stolen property. If you own a TV that was stolen from someone else, you are morally obligated to cease your enjoyment of it and return it to the proper owner. It is immoral for you to enjoy freedoms provided to you by those who claim violate the teachings of Jesus.

In fact, if we take your sloppy exegesis even further, it is immoral and unchristian for you to live in a nation that was birthed by war and violence.

You should lead by example and denounce your citizenship and refuse to enjoy the liberty that was won in the US Revolution. If not, then you do not live by the strength of your convictions.

God is sovereign over the affairs of men. Liberty is His to give or take away. Just as Christ said : "You would have no power over me if not given from above". No it is not immoral to be in the world but not of it. "As long as this world stands there will always be scandal but WOE to him through whom scandal comes!". "If someone would take your purse give to him your cloak as well".
Laws are for the worldly Christians are to be subject to those powers and obey the Laws of the Land that do not force us to reject our God. That we are to not obey. But we are to be peaceable and good citizens. Police can be called when the worldly break the laws. But trivial disputes among brethren are to brought to the saints.
1 Corinthians 6:1-3
Lawsuits among Believers
1If any of you has a grievance against another, how dare he go to law before the unrighteous instead of before the saints! 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!…

This has to with the house of God concerning TRIVIAL matters not mortal sin ones.

And if a person suffer for being evil that is a just sentence. Those are rightly charged according to the world system.
1 Peter 2:19-21
Submission to Authorities
…19For if anyone endures the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God, this is to be commended. 20How is it to your credit if you are beaten for doing wrong and you endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps:…

Capital punishment is not supported by Christ and no Christian should be for it. The containment of criminals is sufficient enough. God will be the one to cast the stone if need be= sentence of death. So if you are for Capital Punishment and think you are doing that in Christ that is a lie.
Capital Punishment:

the legally authorized killing of someone as punishment for a crime.

The worldly kill its own and sometimes kill the innocent.