Christology and Preterism

[John of Japan]

I just have an extra minute here, but I thought I'd mention the Greek genea (supposedly only "generation") in Matt. 24:34. It should be translated "race" here. Note the definition from Friberg's lexicon:

"genea,, a/j, h` strictly birth, the circumstances relating to one's origin; (1) literally, those descended from a common ancestor race, clan, descendants (perhaps AC 8.33); as an ethnic group kind (LU 16.8)."

A typcial error of those untaught in languages is to think that the English word "generation" is exactly the same as the Greek word, but it is not. The Greek word has a wider range of meaning, and can be translated as either "generation" or "race." Here it is "race," so knowing that, it is quite easy for a premil believer to exegete.

 

[kyredneck]

However, the state of mourning, and the Spirit of grace and supplication was not poured out on the inhabitants of Jerusalem at that time, nor at any time to date.

The Spirit of grace and supplication has been poured out abundantly over the past 2 millennia upon the true Israel of God, where neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature:

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
17 Henceforth, let no man trouble me; for I bear branded on my body the marks of Jesus.
18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen.

How does one know that it wasn't? Look at the specificity of the prophecy.

“The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; 14all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves.

The true, rebuilt, house of David is comprised of all nations:

11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
12 And all the multitude kept silence; and they hearkened unto Barnabas and Paul rehearsing what signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles through them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up: [see Matthew 16:18]
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

Old man, do you know of any descendants of David, Nathan, Levi, or Shimeites that can be identified as such? Can the Jews themselves identify such people?

No. No such record exists.

 

[prophecy70]

Disagree, of course.

Can't find "That generation" in that passage.


HankD

I didn't mean that generation was in that verse.

 

[prophecy70]

I just have an extra minute here, but I thought I'd mention the Greek genea (supposedly only "generation") in Matt. 24:34. It should be translated "race" here. Note the definition from Friberg's lexicon:

"genea,, a/j, h` strictly birth, the circumstances relating to one's origin; (1) literally, those descended from a common ancestor race, clan, descendants (perhaps AC 8.33); as an ethnic group kind (LU 16.8)."

A typcial error of those untaught in languages is to think that the English word "generation" is exactly the same as the Greek word, but it is not. The Greek word has a wider range of meaning, and can be translated as either "generation" or "race." Here it is "race," so knowing that, it is quite easy for a premil believer to exegete.

Where else is it used as race, and not the present generation?

 

[kyredneck]

I thought I'd mention the Greek genea (supposedly only "generation") in Matt. 24:34. It should be translated "race" here.

So, you've changed your position:

Concerning "generation" (Gr. genea), all the lexicons agree that it may be translated "age" or "era" as well as "generation." So I have no problems there with my position.

The Meaning of "parousia" in Greek

Try your 'new' position with these passages:

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous race seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil race. Mt 12

4 An evil and adulterous race seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked race. Acts 2

 

[HankD]

I didn't mean that generation was in that verse.

But that's what you said

"I do not believe this, I believe what it says "those who pierced him", That generation".

So if you are going to be a stickler for words so am I.


HankD

 

[agedman]

Folks such as Martin Luther were simply the avenue. Ultimately the burden came from Jehovah:

63 And it shall come to pass, that, as Jehovah rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you, so Jehovah will rejoice over you to cause you to perish [see Revelation 18:20], and to destroy you; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest in to possess it. Dt 28

My but you do mix context of scriptures.

The Deuteronomy passage has nothing to do with the Revelation passage

‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’20“Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”
Speaking about the future destruction of Babylon.

The passage from Deuteronomy is about Israel abandoning the Lord.

Two completely separate issues.

That God has for a time covered the eyes, does not mean abandonment.

God’s covenants are unbreakable by human effort.

 

[agedman]

So, you've changed your position:


The Meaning of "parousia" in Greek

Try your 'new' position with these passages:

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous race seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil race. Mt 12

4 An evil and adulterous race seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked race. Acts 2

Bewildering!

You claim John of Japan changed his position by posting exactly in support of his statement?

 

[kyredneck]

...more:

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth [see Revelation 18:24], from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this race. Mt 23

...mere minutes later:

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This race shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

 

[kyredneck]

The Deuteronomy passage has nothing to do with the Revelation passage

The Revelation passage is Deuteronomy passage demonstrated/fulfilled.

 

[kyredneck]

Bewildering!

You claim John of Japan changed his position by posting exactly in support of his statement?

Old man, you need to go back and read more carefully. He clearly CHANGED his position.

 

[John of Japan]

Where else is it used as race, and not the present generation?

I'm back at my office for just a couple of minutes. I don't have time to do the research right now. If you have a good Bible program on your computer, it should be easy to do the research yourself. A quick look shows me Phil. 2:15. And by the way, it never means "present generation." You would need an extra Greek word for that meaning.

 

[kyredneck]

it never means "present generation." You would need an extra Greek word for that meaning.

The "extra" word is 'this', as in "this generation":

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not sure where you got that from.

There is ONLY 1 second coming in the Bible, and since there was no resurrection of all dead and alive in Christ, and a new state here upon the earth, did NOT happen AD 70!

 

[agedman]

The Revelation passage is Deuteronomy passage demonstrated/fulfilled.

Actually it doesn’t, but neither does the passage about the heart burning within give credit for thinking that all prophecy is fulfilled any more than heartburn indicates I have feet.

 

[agedman]

The "extra" word is 'this', as in "this generation":

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

You do not remember that the word translated “generation” when coupled with another word indicating time, places the generation as regarded continual for infinity?

Hummmm.

 

[John of Japan]

I answered your OP question on the first page, q.v. You don't accept my answer.

Yeah, just keep telling yourself that you answered my OP. All I got out of your "answer" was "It's a mystery." So maybe I should say that you didn't solve the mystery.

 

[TCassidy]

So, you've changed your position:

No, he didn't. He explained how broad the meaning of "genea" can be.

As you seem to think you understand this better than John, a Greek teacher, so please tell us where you studied Greek, and for how long, and what degrees you earned and what experience you have in Greek grammar, syntax, and how much translation work have you done and where can we find that work published?

 

[TCassidy]

Fausset:

In Mat_24:34 "this generation shall not pass (namely, the Jewish race, of which the generation in Christ's days was a sample in character; compare Christ's address to the generation, Mat_23:35-36, in proof that generation means at times the whole Jewish race) until all these things be fulfilled," a prophecy that the Jews shall be a distinct people still when He shall come again.

Don't want to spend money on Fausset? Fine. Here is Thayer:

γενεά
genea
Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation

 

[prophecy70]

Fausset:

In Mat_24:34 "this generation shall not pass (namely, the Jewish race, of which the generation in Christ's days was a sample in character; compare Christ's address to the generation, Mat_23:35-36, in proof that generation means at times the whole Jewish race) until all these things be fulfilled," a prophecy that the Jews shall be a distinct people still when He shall come again.

Don't want to spend money on Fausset? Fine. Here is Thayer:

γενεά
genea
Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation

Use “race” where “generation” appears in these verses: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32.