Christ's Blood Sanctifies !

[DHK]

DHK, is lusting, that God says is paramount to and judged as adultery, consummated in the mind alone at first, in your estimation a deed? Why or why not?

Faith is not a work. A gift is received in faith or by faith. There is no work of any kind involved. A child receives a gift by faith, by faith that the giver is not giving her or him an evil gift. It is a simplistic faith. It is not, by any stretch of the imagination "work."

Jesus said that murder and adultery both started in the heart. He said to look upon a woman and lust after her, with her already in your heart was the act (work) or committing adultery. Yes, of course it is a work. That is no comparison to faith. They are apples and oranges. Some people get paid for the work they do with their minds, i.e., Stephen Hawkings, scientists, and writers.
No man gets paid for having faith.
Faith is an intangible. It is not work. You can't get paid for "doing" faith. It is not a work.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Expound?

 

[savedbymercy]

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

A Person that Christ died for is Justified before God before Faith, solely by the Blood of Christ [Rom 5:9,19]. Rom 4:25 proves it, you deny this you deny the blood of Christ !

Those Christ died for are born as sinners, already Justified by His Blood, while they are unbelievers ! You deny that, you deny the Gospel, period !

 

[savedbymercy]

hp

HP: Agreed! We are NOT saved 'because' our believing is meritorious,

Then is one Christ died for saved[all sins forgiven] before they believe ? Are they already Justified [before God] before they believe by the Blood of Christ ? Yes or No..

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Some people get paid for the work they do with their minds,...

HP: You mention this practically everytime this issue comes up, and it is as absent of relevant truth this time as it has been every time you post it.

When was he last time one got paid for lusting in their heart or hating their brother? And your point is what?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

sbm: Then is one Christ died for saved[all sins forgiven] before they believe ? Are they already Justified [before God] before they believe by the Blood of Christ ? Yes or No..

HP: Absolutely not. That does not make the point that one believes in salvation by works any more than those healed in the OT believed in healing by works because they were not healed until subsequent to their looking at the serpent on the pole. They were not healed until they obeyed by looking, but they were NOT healed 'because of' or 'for the sake of' their looking, neither was their looking meritorious in nature. They were healed by the grace of God 'on the condition' that they obeyed and looked. Their looking was not thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of' nor was it the grounds of their healing. Their looking was a condition of their healing, thought of in the sense of 'not without which'. They would not have been healed apart from their looking, neither were they healed 'because of, or 'for the sake of,' their looking.

I will state it again. NNE IS SAVED BY REPENTANCE AND FAITH, YET NNE WILL BE SAVED APART FROM REPENTANCE IN FAITH. NNE IS SAVED BY REPENTANCE AND FAITH, YET NNE IS SAVED UNTIL THEY EXERCISE REPENTANCE AND FAITH. That is NOT salvation by works. Faith and repentance have no merit in and of themselves and are always thought of in the sense of 'not without which,' (as all conditions are) and are never thought of in the sense of the grounds of our salvation (the grace and mercy of God) which are thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of.' Only Gods grace and mercy and the suffering and shed blood of Christ has any merit concerning salvation. Nothing else period is the grounds of our salvation.

In order for one to believe in salvation by works, MERIT MUST BE ATTACHED to something one does, which I nor anyone on this list has every stated or implied in anything that has been posted to my knowledge.


Go ahead and falsely accuse one of believing salvation by works as many others have on this list for believing that one must obey the conditions God has set forth to be saved. Mock all that desire to label one believing God's stated conditions must be fulfilled by us in order to be saved. Call us whatever you so desire. Label us as heretics if that floats your boat. Mock the truth if you so desire, BUT one day you will come face to face with the God that set down those conditions and you will find that you have kicked at the pricks, besides maligning the messengers of God's truth in doing so. I certainly would not to be desirous of your position on that day.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Fred: John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Expound?

HP: I for one, tried my best in the last post, although I did not address belief directly. We are commnaded to believe, which is in fact an act of the will, a work 'in a sense' that is a condition of our salvation, yet is NOT meritorious in nature. We MUST believe before God saves us, but that in no wise constitutes salvation by works.

If I am not making myself clear, or you do not follow me, have patience with me because I am a work in progress, and so are my explanations.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Christ's blood alone sanctifies, but no one is saved or sanctified until the conditions God has set forth for salvation and sanctification have been met.

The notion that the blood of Christ cleansed the sins, or sanctified a select few, prior to them fulfilling the conditions God has mandated is representative of a false notion as to the nature of the Atonement. The literal payment theory, such sentiment as sbm and others express, is far from the truth of Scripture, and is a false 'man made' philosophy nowhere espoused as truth in Scripture itself.

 

[DHK]

HP: You mention this practically everytime this issue comes up, and it is as absent of relevant truth this time as it has been every time you post it.

When was he last time one got paid for lusting in their heart or hating their brother? And your point is what?

Every time you watch a soap opera.

The Ten Commandments are the Law.
The keeping of the law; that is works--the most obvious kind--the work most often referred to in the NT.
Lusting, hating, are the types of sin that break the law. They are the sins that are the deeds of the law that are broken. They are definitely works, so much so that they are the equivalent as if you took a knife and stabbed someone in the heart. Lust is a deed committed in the heart, the precursor of adultery. In fact Jesus said it was adultery.
Hate is the opposite of love, the greatest command of all. It is the equivalent of murder. John said he that hates his brother does not have eternal life. It is an action, a deed.

Faith is not an action. It is passive. We receive by faith.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What we are witnessing by sbm, is nothing more than pure Calvinism. For those that might happen to be in the dark as to what they really believe, let me explain.

To them ALL has been accomplished at the cross for a select few, and none other. All of the sins of the select elect, past present and future, have been bought and paid for in a forensic sense, a specific amount of debt paid for by a specific amount of suffering and death, which accomplishes salvation completely, at that moment, for the elect alone, all others having no atonement possible. Christ did not, according to the Calvinist, die for or atone for the sins of the whole world, but rather died for and atoned for the sins of the elect only.

Here is a real eye opener into the real thoughts of the pure Calvinist. In reality, they believe that they have been the elect from before the world was formed, and that in reality they have always been saved, they just come to realize it when they have an 'experience of' salvation. Are you following me on this point? They believe that what most call a point of salvation, to them is strictly a time when they come to realize that they have in reality been saved all along. They have just not known about it until the point they might loosely term as a 'salvation experience.' They stress this moment of awakening as the time they come to the knowledge of what was in reality ALREADY done for them, they just now came to realize it as fact. They were chosen before they were born to be a lucky elect apart from anything they could or would ever do.

Again, this view stems from a false manufactured man-made philosophy of the Atonement and what it has accomplished contrary to the teaching of Scripture themselves. It has been referred to as the 'literal payment theory.'

There you have the very basis of the Calvinistic system of thought, exposed for what it is, a false system of necessitated fatalism, and that set in order before the foundations of the world, some elect to salvation apart from anything they can or will ever do, and others elect to damnation apart from any effort they could or ever do to avoid their fate.

Consider it well. They paint a picture of a Loving and just God, condemning to an eternal hell all those elected to damnation who never had a chance to in reality be anything other than the damned sinners they are, and the lucky elect saved for all eternity in bliss through no effort on their part whatsoever.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Faith is not an action. It is passive. We receive by faith.

HP: You confuse faith with manna from heaven. Manna falls from the sky without any effort on our part, but not so with faith. We are commanded to have faith, to exercise our wills in relationship to the truth, 'without which' we have no saving faith. When you try to make faith something granted through no effort or choice on our part, you in essence stumble at the same point as does the Calvinist. When you make God the sole source of saving faith, granted to man without any formed intents on mans part, necessity and fatalism are the only resulting options. Your argument necessitates the damnation of the lost by God with holding from man, though no choice on man's part whatsoever, faith, which you say is simply received not formed in the will of man. The only end to your position is that God elected some to salvation, by granting to them faith, and others to damnation by withholding faith and denying them the only means possible of salvation.

If you deny those ends, or feel they are an unjust association on my part, you are going to have to change your ideas on faith to escape those logical ends as horrible as they are. If faith is all of God, so is salvation. If salvation is all of God, so is damnation. You cannot have God failing to grant faith to some without ending up with necessitated fatalism and God as the Author of all evil.

 

[Fred's Wife]

What we are witnessing by sbm, is nothing more than pure Calvinism. For those that might happen to be in the dark as to what they really believe, let me explain.

To them ALL has been accomplished at the cross for a select few, and none other. All of the sins of the select elect, past present and future, have been bought and paid for in a forensic sense, a specific amount of debt paid for by a specific amount of suffering and death, which accomplishes salvation completely, at that moment, for the elect alone, all others having no atonement possible. Christ did not, according to the Calvinist, die for or atone for the sins of the whole world, but rather died for and atoned for the sins of the elect only.

Here is a real eye opener into the real thoughts of the pure Calvinist. In reality, they believe that they have been the elect from before the world was formed, and that in reality they have always been saved, they just come to realize it when they have an 'experience of' salvation. Are you following me on this point? They believe that what most call a point of salvation, to them is strictly a time when they come to realize that they have in reality been saved all along. They have just not known about it until the point they might loosely term as a 'salvation experience.' They stress this moment of awakening as the time they come to the knowledge of what was in reality ALREADY done for them, they just now came to realize it as fact. They were chosen before they were born to be a lucky elect apart from anything they could or would ever do.

Again, this view stems from a false manufactured man-made philosophy of the Atonement and what it has accomplished contrary to the teaching of Scripture themselves. It has been referred to as the 'literal payment theory.'

There you have the very basis of the Calvinistic system of thought, exposed for what it is, a false system of necessitated fatalism, and that set in order before the foundations of the world, some elect to salvation apart from anything they can or will ever do, and others elect to damnation apart from any effort they could or ever do to avoid their fate.

Consider it well. They paint a picture of a Loving and just God, condemning to an eternal hell all those elected to damnation who never had a chance to in reality be anything other than the damned sinners they are, and the lucky elect saved for all eternity in bliss through no effort on their part whatsoever.

Excellent synopsis of Calvinism, HP! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Fred's wife, may we never loose sight of the real import of the system of thought known the world over as Calvinism, and the false unscriptural ends and utter contradictory confusion it imbibes.

 

[DHK]

HP: You confuse faith with manna from heaven. Manna falls from the sky without any effort on our part, but not so with faith. We are commanded to have faith, to exercise our wills in relationship to the truth, 'without which' we have no saving faith. When you try to make faith something granted through no effort or choice on our part, you in essence stumble at the same point as does the Calvinist. When you make God the sole source of saving faith, granted to man without any formed intents on mans part, necessity and fatalism are the only resulting options. Your argument necessitates the damnation of the lost by God with holding from man, though no choice on man's part whatsoever, faith, which you say is simply received not formed in the will of man. The only end to your position is that God elected some to salvation, by granting to them faith, and others to damnation by withholding faith and denying them the only means possible of salvation.

If you deny those ends, or feel they are an unjust association on my part, you are going to have to change your ideas on faith to escape those logical ends as horrible as they are. If faith is all of God, so is salvation. If salvation is all of God, so is damnation. You cannot have God failing to grant faith to some without ending up with necessitated fatalism and God as the Author of all evil.

Why must I confine my definition of faith to your skewed definition? Because of your warped definitions you come to false conclusions. False premises result in false conclusions.

Faith is not a gift from God. I have already told you that.
Muslims have faith. Their faith is in Allah. It is misplaced faith. Not only is it misplaced it is blind faith. They think that if they go, strap a bomb on themselves, and blow themselves up, that then they will have a guarantee of paradise, and only then! Otherwise there is not guarantee of paradise.
--What is the basis of their faith? There is no basis for that belief! It is blind--a blind faith.
Our faith is not blind. It is based on the life, and then the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He proved his promises because of his resurrection. Our faith is based on fact. Thus faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. The more I hear, the more it makes sense to me.
The more I hear the Koran, the more it doesn't make sense to me, and I realize that it must take a blind faith to believe in it. The same is true for a belief in the Vedas, the Granth Sahib, the Buddhist writings, etc. Belief in these "Scriptures" takes a blind belief. There is no basis for believing them. How can one know for sure that they will grant you eternal life and/or forgiveness sins. They don't know.

Our faith is based on the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Faith is confidence in the word of another. Biblical faith is confidence in the Word of God. Confidence is not a work.

I am not confused; but I am certain you are.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Our faith is based on the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Faith is confidence in the word of another. Biblical faith is confidence in the Word of God. Confidence is not a work.

HP: In what sense is faith not a work DHK? I have provided much evidence God sees faith as a work, by the manner in which He judges man. I will agree it is NOT a work in another sense.

My question to you is, can you explain to the listener why I would say it is NOT a work in one sense, yet faith IS a work in another sense?

Give it your best shot. Show the world at least you can understand another's views, and are not simply guilty of fighting windmills, especially those of your own making. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: In what sense is faith not a work DHK? I have provided much evidence God sees faith as a work, by the manner in which He judges man. I will agree it is NOT a work in another sense.

My question to you is, can you explain to the listener why I would say it is NOT a work in one sense, yet faith IS a work in another sense?

Give it your best shot. Show the world at least you can understand another's views, and are not simply guilty of fighting windmills, especially those of your own making.

Look at your own inconsistencies:
You brought up lust. Here is what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

What greater example of the Ten Commandments does one need!
James 2:10-11 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
--Looking on a woman, lusting after her is breaking the law. It is a work, committed in the mind. Is that not obvious? Jesus said that if you do this you have just broken ALL the LAW.

Now, what about Abraham.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
--Abraham was not justified by works.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--It is plain to see that he was justified by faith and faith alone. His works had nothing to do with it. Faith is not a work. If it were this entire passage would be contradictory.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--A person works and his work deserves payment--a debt to be paid for the work done. It is not a gift given for the work done, but a debt owed.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Faith is not a work. That is what this verse says. to them that work not but believe (have faith) he is the one that is justified. It plainly says that faith is not work. It can't get any clearer than that. Faith is not a work.
His faith is counted for righteousness; not his work.

Faith and work don't mix.
Faith and grace don't mix either.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is either grace or works; it can't be both.

--Likewise, it is either faith or works; it can't be both.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is either grace or works; it can't be both.

--Likewise, it is either faith or works; it can't be both.

HP: I asked you if you could articulate my views to the world. Don't you tire of creating windmills to fight? Scripture calls that beating as one beateth the air.

As to the passage you speak of, it is speaking concerning the grounds of salvation, NOT the conditions of salvation. It is absolutely true that the grounds of salvation are indeed without the least involvement of the works or efforts of men. That is NOT tru when it comes to the conditions of salvation such as faith and repentance.



Faith without works is.........You know the rest. Just start believing it is all that is left for you to do. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: I asked you if you could articulate my views to the world. Don't you tire of creating windmills to fight? Scripture calls that beating as one beateth the air.

As to the passage you speak of, it is speaking concerning the grounds of salvation, NOT the conditions of salvation. It is absolutely true that the grounds of salvation are indeed without the least involvement of the works or efforts of men. That is NOT tru when it comes to the conditions of salvation such as faith and repentance.

This is where you err greatly, even border on heresy.
There are no conditions to salvation. Salvation is and always has been unconditional. If it is not unconditional they it is a salvation of works, just like Islam and Hinduism.

 

[Alive in Christ]

What we are witnessing by sbm, is nothing more than pure Calvinism. For those that might happen to be in the dark as to what they really believe, let me explain.

To them ALL has been accomplished at the cross for a select few, and none other. All of the sins of the select elect, past present and future, have been bought and paid for in a forensic sense, a specific amount of debt paid for by a specific amount of suffering and death, which accomplishes salvation completely, at that moment, for the elect alone, all others having no atonement possible. Christ did not, according to the Calvinist, die for or atone for the sins of the whole world, but rather died for and atoned for the sins of the elect only.

Here is a real eye opener into the real thoughts of the pure Calvinist. In reality, they believe that they have been the elect from before the world was formed, and that in reality they have always been saved, they just come to realize it when they have an 'experience of' salvation. Are you following me on this point? They believe that what most call a point of salvation, to them is strictly a time when they come to realize that they have in reality been saved all along. They have just not known about it until the point they might loosely term as a 'salvation experience.' They stress this moment of awakening as the time they come to the knowledge of what was in reality ALREADY done for them, they just now came to realize it as fact. They were chosen before they were born to be a lucky elect apart from anything they could or would ever do.

Again, this view stems from a false manufactured man-made philosophy of the Atonement and what it has accomplished contrary to the teaching of Scripture themselves. It has been referred to as the 'literal payment theory.'

There you have the very basis of the Calvinistic system of thought, exposed for what it is, a false system of necessitated fatalism, and that set in order before the foundations of the world, some elect to salvation apart from anything they can or will ever do, and others elect to damnation apart from any effort they could or ever do to avoid their fate.

Consider it well. They paint a picture of a Loving and just God, condemning to an eternal hell all those elected to damnation who never had a chance to in reality be anything other than the damned sinners they are, and the lucky elect saved for all eternity in bliss through no effort on their part whatsoever.

The really weird thing is that many calvinists are actually quite....intelligent.

I find that very interesting because you would think that they would have the "smarts" to discern the utter ridiculousness of so much of Calvinism.

But they dont. They fall for it. Ordinarily its the extreme hyper-fundamentalists..(ie the westboro nuts out in Kansas) who are easilly duped. Not people with smarts. I guess this demonstrates that "smarts" does not gurantee wisdom or discsernment.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: I asked you if you could articulate my views to the world. Don't you tire of creating windmills to fight? Scripture calls that beating as one beateth the air.

As to the passage you speak of, it is speaking concerning the grounds of salvation, NOT the conditions of salvation. It is absolutely true that the grounds of salvation are indeed without the least involvement of the works or efforts of men. That is NOT tru when it comes to the conditions of salvation such as faith and repentance.



Faith without works is.........You know the rest. Just start believing it is all that is left for you to do. :thumbs:

The finished works of Christ is the action received by gospel faith and upon which faith rests solely as its only hope of salvation. The faith which receives and rests upon the gospel for salvation is the same faith that then responds in love through works or "unto good works."

You simply cannot distinguish saving faith which embraces and rests upon what Christ does for you from sanctifying faith which is what you do for Christ. The former is the cause while the latter is the consequence but both are found together in every true child of God.