adisciplinedlearner
New Member
AMEN! I agree.
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Christ's Church
- Thread starter adisciplinedlearner
- Start date
AMEN! I agree.
Dr. Walter
New Member
AMEN! I agree.
Gerhard, you have a man saying Amen to you that denies eternal security of the beleiver, believes in baptismal regeneration or regeneration IN baptism. That believes no one but immersed believers are saved. That believes you are justified by your works for eternal salvation, etc.
How does that make you feel Gerhard? I would reconsider your doctrine of the church if I were you!
My friend,
You got the proper analogy when you spoke of yourself as the underling of your Father. Your father was the cheif shepherd and you were his undershepherd. You will never be your father for there is but one cheif shepherd but you are nevertheless his undershepherd.
The same is true in regard to I Cor. 12:21. The "head" which is IN the local church body is the undershepherd while Jesus Christ is the Cheif sheperd OVER that body. One "head" is IN the body acting UNDER Christ.
You confuse the family of God with the church of God. The family of God are all the saved in heaven and on earth and it has existed on earth since Genesis and will contine to exist until Jesus comes back - we are all "brothers" and "sisters" in one family - God's family.
However, the church of God had no existence previous to building it, which began with its foundation (Eph. 2:20) and the apostles were the "first" to be set in the church (I Cor. 12:28). So the church cannot be equal with salvation or being saved as that would deny God had any family before the apostles who were set "FIRST" in the church.
The church of God is the replacement "house of God" for the previous Old Testament "house of God" (I Tim. 2:15)as the visible divine institution for administration of the ordinances by qualified ordained undershepherds (I Tim. 2:1-13) and the house of PUBLIC worship. It is local and visible and can be found throughout the pages of the New Testament where it is located geographically "at Corinth" "at Ephesus" "at Thyatira" and it is the "churches of God" that Paul collectively calls "the church of God" as the divine institution for public worship.
GE:
I could virtually agree with everything you say, except with your insinuating an 'under-Head'. Jesus is the only Head of the Church and Family of believers, and a pastor or whatever or whoever that arrogates 'head-ship' in any manner, has missed his calling as the servant of the Congregation and intrudes the domain and dominion and Kingly Rule of Christ. The Church has only One Head as only One King. “That in ALL things (pertaining the Church) HE (alone) might have the pre-eminence.” Col1:13-18.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
I agree that Christ is the only Head of His church. Any pastor who claims to be the head of the church is guilty of usurping Christ's authority.
Dr. Walter
New Member
GE:
I could virtually agree with everything you say, except with your insinuating an 'under-Head'. Jesus is the only Head of the Church and Family of believers, and a pastor or whatever or whoever that arrogates 'head-ship' in any manner, has missed his calling as the servant of the Congregation and intrudes the domain and dominion and Kingly Rule of Christ. The Church has only One Head as only One King. “That in ALL things (pertaining the Church) HE (alone) might have the pre-eminence.” Col1:13-18.
1 Pet. 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
The "under" shepherd took the OVERSIGHT in regard to "the flock." The term "oversight" refers to a position of authority over the flock as Christ did not give this position to every individual member of the flock. He is the leader. This is "the head" IN the body in I Cor. 12:21. That is his position of AUTHORITY that Christ has placed him OVER the flock and that is the metaphorical meaning of "the head" when it is applied to anything whether to the undersheperd "pastor" or the "cheif shepherd" Pastor.
Gerhard, you have a man saying Amen to you that denies eternal security of the beleiver, believes in baptismal regeneration or regeneration IN baptism. That believes no one but immersed believers are saved. That believes you are justified by your works for eternal salvation, etc.
How does that make you feel Gerhard? I would reconsider your doctrine of the church if I were you!
GE:
Dr Walter, I don't feel or care about what any man here or anywhere may believe. I care though, that I believe,
1) The regenerating baptism of the Holy Spirit in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit my acts or convictions or propensities or righteousness or sanctification regardless JUST LIKE my SINS regardless I am recreated while WATER or MANNER with water received no part in God's work in regenerating a sinner into a saved person;
2) You simultaneously that you are reborn, are justified through the forgiveness of sins and simultaneously entered into first-resurrection-life in readiness and fitness for eternal salvation and life. You are justified by grace, faith being reckoned or accounted you without works of righteousness or sanctification or glorification your own works and hopelessness in sin and unrighteousness despite.
3) "Your life hidden with Christ in God" is kept by the grace of God in 'eternal security of the believer'.
It makes me feel Saved by Grace through Jesus Christ and member of the Body of Christ’s Own whether I assemble together with fellow-believers and enjoy a pastor’s deaconate every Sabbath or never.
No one is saved by the Church. No one not of the Body of Christ's Own is saved. The believer has one Head, One King, Jesus Christ. His glory and honour is shared with NONE.
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adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Pastors are leaders, but they are not heads. Leadership is horizontal, but headship is vertical.
The president of a corporation is a leader but cannot be the CEO. Is that your reasoning? Makes perfect sense :sleep:Pastors are leaders, but they are not heads. Leadership is horizontal, but headship is vertical.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
My point is that Christians (i.e., Christ's church) have only one head, the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no room for a two-headed monster.
There is no room for a universal church.My point is that Christians (i.e., Christ's church) have only one head, the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no room for a two-headed monster.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Pastors are leaders, but they are not heads. Leadership is horizontal, but headship is vertical.
I expected such a foolish answer from you because you don't know that "the head" is simply a metaphor of authority and leaders are in positions of authority whether you like or not whether you accept it or not.
I Cor. 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
The above text proves that there were members in the church at Corinth that functioned as "the eye" and "the hand" and "the feet" as well as "THE HEAD." That is a metaphor of a position of AUTHORITY in the body whereas Christ is "the head" OVER the body including the member functioning as the undershepherd.
"he that ruleth" - Rom. 12:8
"Obey them that have the rule over you" - Heb. 13:17
"OVERseers" - Acts 20:28
"OVERsight" - I Pet. 5:4
Whether you agree, disagree, like, love or hate it the metaphor of "the head" in I Cor. 12:21 describes the member in the church who functions in a position "OVER" the flock or in the position of some kind of "authority" as that is the meaning of the metaphorical use of "the head" as Paul cannot possibly be speaking of a LITERAL head in I Cor. 12:21 any more than he can be speaking of a LITERAL body in I Cor. 12:13-27.
This indisputable fact destroys your whole concept of "the church" as well as your whole doctrine of "soteriology" as this proves the metaphorical body in question is precisely what Paul says it is in verse 27 the church at Corinth with its leadership placed over them by the Holy Spirit (Acts 20:28).
I Cor. 12:21 refers to "the head" as a position of a member IN the body whereas Christ is "the head" OVER the whole body and the whole body has a "head" just as a wife has a "head" on her body and yet the husband is "the head" OVER the whole body of the wife.
Look at I Cor. 11:3. Christ is "the head" over every man but that does not mean the male torso is without a physical head. The man is "the head" over the woman but that does not mean the female torso is without her physical head. The metaphor "the head" simply means "authority" without any physical or spiritual union to the body of the man or woman.
In I Cor. 12:21 we have the use of this metaphor for "authority" assigned to a member IN the body as his function to edify the other members in this metaphorical body of Christ. Yet, the metaphor of "the head" refers to the position of Christ as final authority OVER the whole metaphorical torso including its own metaphorical "head" IN the body. There is simply a resident leader IN this body which as a whole is UNDER the ultimate Leader Jesus Christ.
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My point is that Christians (i.e., Christ's church) have only one head, the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no room for a two-headed monster.
You guys appear to be splitting hairs over terminology. How is that helpful?
I think not.You guys appear to be splitting hairs over terminology. How is that helpful?
In answer to these questions:
Who did Paul address his letters to?
Who did Christ address his letters to in the Book of Revelation, chapters two and three?
His answer was:
http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1572750&postcount=89These letters were addressed to the one true church and body of Christ as it was made manifest in various cities. They were addressed to Christians.
Perhaps you believe these letters were addressed to the single pastor of each church, but I do not agree with this viewpoint.
It amounts to no less than a denial of the Word of God.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You guys appear to be splitting hairs over terminology. How is that helpful?
My friend, the difference is over the metaphor "the head" and what it means. He denies the metaphors "the flock" and "the body" have any application to such churches as the church of God "which is at" Corinth, or Ephesus or etc. In defense of his position he denies "the head" has any other metaphorical application IN the metaphorical body of Christ than to Jesus Christ and so makes the stupid charge that it creates a multi-headed monster when it is a metaphor for "authority" as though there can be no multilevels of authority.
I Corinthians 12:21 uses this metaphor "the head" to describe the function of a member IN the metaphorical body of the context. By necessity the metaphor "the head" demands that the function of this member(s) is a function of "authority" as that is the metaphorical implications of "the head."
Simply because there is a lower level of authority IN the metaphorical body of Christ does not mean Christ is not the authority OVER the metaphorical body of Christ. There are UNDER shepherds versus the CHEIF shepherd and yet both are described by the same metaphor "shepherd." Likewise, the same metaphor "head" applied to a member(s) IN the local church body (I Cor. 12:21) is not in conflict with "head" as applied to Christ OVER the same local church body, whether at Corinth or at Ephesus or wherever.
However, the real issue at the bottom of all of this is whether justification is by faith without works or justification by works in regard to entrance into heaven. He holds to the view that there is only ONE NUMERICAL church and it is composed of water immersed believers who must continue faithfully to the end in order to be saved. Hence, sprinkled, poured or unbaptized persons are lost in his opinion as they are outside Christ.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Brother Mark, Please show me Baptist confessions of faith that teach the pastor is the earthly head of the church. This is warmed-over Roman Catholicism.
Brother Mark, Please show me Baptist confessions of faith that teach the pastor is the earthly head of the church. This is warmed-over Roman Catholicism.
Why not go straight to the source and get it from scripture rather than any single confession of faith?
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you
Do you know the meaning of "episkopos"?
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My friend, the difference is over the metaphor "the head" and what it means. He denies the metaphors "the flock" and "the body" have any application to such churches as the church of God "which is at" Corinth, or Ephesus or etc. In defense of his position he denies "the head" has any other metaphorical application IN the metaphorical body of Christ than to Jesus Christ and so makes the stupid charge that it creates a multi-headed monster when it is a metaphor for "authority" as though there can be no multilevels of authority.
I Corinthians 12:21 uses this metaphor "the head" to describe the function of a member IN the metaphorical body of the context. By necessity the metaphor "the head" demands that the function of this member(s) is a function of "authority" as that is the metaphorical implications of "the head."
Simply because there is a lower level of authority IN the metaphorical body of Christ does not mean Christ is not the authority OVER the metaphorical body of Christ. There are UNDER shepherds versus the CHEIF shepherd and yet both are described by the same metaphor "shepherd." Likewise, the same metaphor "head" applied to a member(s) IN the local church body (I Cor. 12:21) is not in conflict with "head" as applied to Christ OVER the same local church body, whether at Corinth or at Ephesus or wherever.
However, the real issue at the bottom of all of this is whether justification is by faith without works or justification by works in regard to entrance into heaven. He holds to the view that there is only ONE NUMERICAL church and it is composed of water immersed believers who must continue faithfully to the end in order to be saved. Hence, sprinkled, poured or unbaptized persons are lost in his opinion as they are outside Christ.
It appears he has been indoctrinated by the 'House Church Movement". They rail against preaching of the word, official church leadership, most forms of organization etc. They are not to be taken seriously. Anyone who thinks one should only hold church services in a home because that is how they did it in the NT shows no sign of judgment or discernment. They really need to think things through better.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Elders do not exercise the same kind of rule that Christ exercises as the Head of the church. Elders are leaders who rule by standing before the people and preaching and teaching God's word. As they carry out this duty, they are to be followed.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Brother Mark, Please show me Baptist confessions of faith that teach the pastor is the earthly head of the church. This is warmed-over Roman Catholicism.
I showed you the Scriptures and if that is not sufficient than nothing will be. Note, you made no response!
Dr. Walter
New Member
Elders do not exercise the same kind of rule that Christ exercises as the Head of the church. Elders are leaders who rule by standing before the people and preaching and teaching God's word. As they carry out this duty, they are to be followed.
Better go back and read what I said and the Scriptural evidence I gave. You are making yourself look foolish. Even Ephesians 1:21 demonstrates a various levels of authority in the universe that Christ is over.