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Christ's Church
- Thread starter adisciplinedlearner
- Start date
Dr. Walter
New Member
GE:
Ja; that's more like it; more like one would expect from you, DHK.
Thanks. It makes me feel much better. Thanks again. Now I, "every man", may know, Christ is my Head and I am a member of his Body The Called of God, even though no one else may suffer me the right.
Perhaps I should have just said that the metaphorical head IN the body (I Cor. 12:21) is the undershepherd while the metaphorical head OVER the body is the Cheif Shepherd!
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.GE:
Ja; that's more like it; more like one would expect from you, DHK.
Thanks. It makes me feel much better. Thanks again. Now I, "every man", may know, Christ is my Head and I am a member of his Body The Called of God, even though no one else may suffer me the right.
Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Christ is the Chief Shepherd, the Great Shepherd, and the Bishop of our souls.
Now, in Acts 20:28 Paul addresses the elders of pastors of the church at Ephesus and tells them to feed the church of God, that is to say, the local church at Ephesus. These elders where under-shepherds. They were directly responsible to the Great Shepherd as they were to feed the sheep in Ephesus that God had given to them. Those sheep were called their "flock" in Ephesus.
Note again:
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--That gives vs. 28 in context. He was speaking to the elders (pastors) of the church at Ephesus.
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Christ is the Chief Shepherd, the Great Shepherd, and the Bishop of our souls.
Now, in Acts 20:28 Paul addresses the elders of pastors of the church at Ephesus and tells them to feed the church of God, that is to say, the local church at Ephesus. These elders where under-shepherds. They were directly responsible to the Great Shepherd as they were to feed the sheep in Ephesus that God had given to them. Those sheep were called their "flock" in Ephesus.
Note again:
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--That gives vs. 28 in context. He was speaking to the elders (pastors) of the church at Ephesus.
GE:
You are talking Gospel, DHK, I cannot be thankful enough for it.
Mind though, an ‘under-shepherd’ is one thing. I used to look after my father’s donkeys and cattle in the good old days… when I was but about six years old. I was the pappa-shepherd’s underling.
He also was the family’s head; but I had to wait nearly thirty years before I could become the head of my own family.
And no one will be able to wait long enough to become the Head of God’s Family, his TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH OF TODAY, YESTERDAY AND TOMORROW.
There is no under-head; NO vice principal in the Kingdom of God and heaven on earth or in heaven. "FAR ABOVE" --- far TOO "far above EVERY name that is named" is Christ's, "in this world or the world to come", The Head of the Church.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
My friend,
You got the proper analogy when you spoke of yourself as the underling of your Father. Your father was the cheif shepherd and you were his undershepherd. You will never be your father for there is but one cheif shepherd but you are nevertheless his undershepherd.
The same is true in regard to I Cor. 12:21. The "head" which is IN the local church body is the undershepherd while Jesus Christ is the Cheif sheperd OVER that body. One "head" is IN the body acting UNDER Christ.
You confuse the family of God with the church of God. The family of God are all the saved in heaven and on earth and it has existed on earth since Genesis and will contine to exist until Jesus comes back - we are all "brothers" and "sisters" in one family - God's family.
However, the church of God had no existence previous to building it, which began with its foundation (Eph. 2:20) and the apostles were the "first" to be set in the church (I Cor. 12:28). So the church cannot be equal with salvation or being saved as that would deny God had any family before the apostles who were set "FIRST" in the church.
The church of God is the replacement "house of God" for the previous Old Testament "house of God" (I Tim. 2:15)as the visible divine institution for administration of the ordinances by qualified ordained undershepherds (I Tim. 2:1-13) and the house of PUBLIC worship. It is local and visible and can be found throughout the pages of the New Testament where it is located geographically "at Corinth" "at Ephesus" "at Thyatira" and it is the "churches of God" that Paul collectively calls "the church of God" as the divine institution for public worship.
You got the proper analogy when you spoke of yourself as the underling of your Father. Your father was the cheif shepherd and you were his undershepherd. You will never be your father for there is but one cheif shepherd but you are nevertheless his undershepherd.
The same is true in regard to I Cor. 12:21. The "head" which is IN the local church body is the undershepherd while Jesus Christ is the Cheif sheperd OVER that body. One "head" is IN the body acting UNDER Christ.
You confuse the family of God with the church of God. The family of God are all the saved in heaven and on earth and it has existed on earth since Genesis and will contine to exist until Jesus comes back - we are all "brothers" and "sisters" in one family - God's family.
However, the church of God had no existence previous to building it, which began with its foundation (Eph. 2:20) and the apostles were the "first" to be set in the church (I Cor. 12:28). So the church cannot be equal with salvation or being saved as that would deny God had any family before the apostles who were set "FIRST" in the church.
The church of God is the replacement "house of God" for the previous Old Testament "house of God" (I Tim. 2:15)as the visible divine institution for administration of the ordinances by qualified ordained undershepherds (I Tim. 2:1-13) and the house of PUBLIC worship. It is local and visible and can be found throughout the pages of the New Testament where it is located geographically "at Corinth" "at Ephesus" "at Thyatira" and it is the "churches of God" that Paul collectively calls "the church of God" as the divine institution for public worship.
GE:
You are talking Gospel, DHK, I cannot be thankful enough for it.
Mind though, an ‘under-shepherd’ is one thing. I used to look after my father’s donkeys and cattle in the good old days… when I was but about six years old. I was the pappa-shepherd’s underling.
He also was the family’s head; but I had to wait nearly thirty years before I could become the head of my own family.
And no one will be able to wait long enough to become the Head of God’s Family, his TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH OF TODAY, YESTERDAY AND TOMORROW.
There is no under-head; NO vice principal in the Kingdom of God and heaven on earth or in heaven. "FAR ABOVE" --- far TOO "far above EVERY name that is named" is Christ's, "in this world or the world to come", The Head of the Church.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Landmark Baptists are altogether unreliable guides when it comes to New Testament ecclesiology. I lovingly implore those who know and love Christ not to listen to Landmark Baptists, for they will lead you into religious error and spiritual bondage. Been there . . . done that.
Where did this red herring come from. I am not a Landmark Baptist, and I don't see anyone posting Landmark Baptist theology. Your remark is unwarranted and somewhat foolish.Landmark Baptists are altogether unreliable guides when it comes to New Testament ecclesiology. I lovingly implore those who know and love Christ not to listen to Landmark Baptists, for they will lead you into religious error and spiritual bondage. Been there . . . done that.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Landmark Baptists are altogether unreliable guides when it comes to New Testament ecclesiology. I lovingly implore those who know and love Christ not to listen to Landmark Baptists, for they will lead you into religious error and spiritual bondage. Been there . . . done that.
You can't deal with scriptures so you stoop to personal and pointed attacks! Come on my friend, get your sword if you want to fight.
Is this the same as saying: "you were a Biology teacher and are therefore not qualified to comment on theology."Landmark Baptists are altogether unreliable guides when it comes to New Testament ecclesiology. I lovingly implore those who know and love Christ not to listen to Landmark Baptists, for they will lead you into religious error and spiritual bondage. Been there . . . done that.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
No, I do not see any connection between these two ideas. Still, I beg others who know and love Christ to steer clear of Landmark Baptist ecclesiology. The cogent logic of it can sound very convincing, but it is contrary to the New Testament in many ways. For instance, it teaches that the body of Christ is one in kind but many in number. The New Testament teaches that it is one in both kind and number. Never does the New Testament refer to "a body of Christ" in the singular or to "bodies of Christ" in the plural. This is because there is only one body of Christ, just as the New Testament plainly says.
I take it you have never read 1Cor.12.,Never does the New Testament refer to "a body of Christ" in the singular or to "bodies of Christ" in the plural. This is because there is only one body of Christ, just as the New Testament plainly says.
where it says, if translated literally:
"Ye are A body of Christ, and members in particular."
Check the Greek. There is no definite article. It was added by the translators. The statement you made is false. The NT does refer to "a body of Christ," and very plainly so.
Dr. Walter
New Member
No, I do not see any connection between these two ideas. Still, I beg others who know and love Christ to steer clear of Landmark Baptist ecclesiology. The cogent logic of it can sound very convincing, but it is contrary to the New Testament in many ways. For instance, it teaches that the body of Christ is one in kind but many in number. The New Testament teaches that it is one in both kind and number. Never does the New Testament refer to "a body of Christ" in the singular or to "bodies of Christ" in the plural. This is because there is only one body of Christ, just as the New Testament plainly says.
The metaphor of "the body" cannot grammatically be expressed in the plural because it violates the rules of a metaphor. Your willing ignorant of basic rules for the proper and improper use of metaphors. A Metaphor CANNOT be used to express or convey to another noun (church) characteristics that are not LITERALLY found in the first noun (body).
Since a literal body is not a PLURALITY nor INVISIBLE nor UNIVERSAL it cannot be used to express such characteristics. Pick up any good reference book on figures of speech and read the proper rules and you will see what I mean.
Hence, to argue that one cannot find plural "bodies" as a metaphor of the churches in the New Testament is a lame argument built upon igorance of a metaphor.
Furthermore, in Ephesians 4:5 when Paul wrote to the church at Ephesus there is "one body" he meant ONE in number as well as ONE in kind. To the one reading this epistle it was the ONE in number where his own membership resided which at the same time was the ONE in kind which EVERY READER in New Testament times were members of.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
The Greek New Testament does not say, "Ye are A body of Christ." It simply says, "Ye are body of Christ." The fact that the article is not used does not mean this phrase should be translated, "Ye are A body of Christ." If it does mean this, then John 1:1 should be translated to teach that the Word is "A God" instead of "THE God."
Dr. Walter
New Member
The Greek New Testament does not say, "Ye are A body of Christ." It simply says, "Ye are body of Christ." The fact that the article is not used does not mean this phrase should be translated, "Ye are A body of Christ." If it does mean this, then John 1:1 should be translated to teach that the Word is "A God" instead of "THE God."
You are showing obvious ignorance of Greek grammar or you are intentionally deceiving. The syntactical structure of I Cor. 12:27 and John 1:1 are NOT THE SAME.
1. The missing definite article in John 1:1b is necessary to distinguish the subject from the object [ The subject is made plain by the article (o logov) and the predicate without it (yeov) just as in #Joh 4:24 pneuma o yeov can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." - A.T. Robertson] but this is not the case in I Cor. 12:27
2. There is no definite article with the pronoun "ye" or with "body" in I Cor. 12:27 so it is legitimate to render it "a body"
3. The pronoun "ye" defies your interpretation as Paul excludes himself from not merely this "body" but from being "indivdiual members thereof"
4. The preceding verse (v. 26) is an impossibility for your interpretation of I Cor. 12:27 as it requires "ALL THE MEMBERS" to either glory or suffer "WITH" only "ONE MEMBER" and that is only possible in "a body" with ALL of its "individual members thereof" but totally impossible in any kind of PRACTICAL sense of the term "WITH" for your intepretation
I take it you have never read 1Cor.12.,
where it says, if translated literally:
"Ye are A body of Christ, and members in particular."
Check the Greek. There is no definite article. It was added by the translators. The statement you made is false. The NT does refer to "a body of Christ," and very plainly so.
GE:
".... THE body (‘TO sohma’) is ('estin' through synecdoche) THE body of Christ’s own (‘tou Xristou’). There is a Definite Article; the NT does refer to "THE body of Christ" as well. In Colossians 2 it says "THE body of Christ is”, and also, “is coming" (‘mellontohn’). The Body of Christ includes ALL believers, not only some assembling at one spot in space at a time FOR AS LONG AS they assemble.
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adisciplinedlearner
New Member
I Peter 2
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
The absence of the definite article "the" above does not mean there are many chosen generations, many royal priesthoods, many holy nations, or many peculiar peoples. In the same way, the absence of the definite article "the" in I Corinthians 12:27 does not mean there are many bodies of Christ.
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
The absence of the definite article "the" above does not mean there are many chosen generations, many royal priesthoods, many holy nations, or many peculiar peoples. In the same way, the absence of the definite article "the" in I Corinthians 12:27 does not mean there are many bodies of Christ.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
ONE fold (the body of Christ) and ONE Shepherd (the Lord Jesus Christ)(Jn. 10:16). ONE body (Eph. 4:4).
.......The preceding verse (v. 26) is an impossibility for your interpretation of I Cor. 12:27 as it requires "ALL THE MEMBERS" to either glory or suffer "WITH" only "ONE MEMBER" and that is only possible in "a body" with ALL of its "individual members thereof" but totally impossible in any kind of PRACTICAL sense of the term "WITH" for your intepretation
GE:
Their suffering is a common denominator of ALL believers of ALL times EVERYWHERE. Shared suffering is not limited to or by physical, local, congregating or Congregation. Suffering is an outstanding intrinsic quality of Christian discipleship rather than the 'practical' or shared deeds of charity and philanthropy in local congregations.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
I Peter 2
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
The absence of the definite article "the" above does not mean there are many chosen generations, many royal priesthoods, many holy nations, or many peculiar peoples. In the same way, the absence of the definite article "the" in I Corinthians 12:27 does not mean there are many bodies of Christ.
Baloney, chapter five demands that individual congregations with their individual undershepherds are the recipients of this letter. He did not send this letter to every house where individual Christians lived but sent it to their churches.
Dr. Walter
New Member
ONE fold (the body of Christ) and ONE Shepherd (the Lord Jesus Christ)(Jn. 10:16). ONE body (Eph. 4:4).
Baloney, one institutional church (Mt. 18:17), one Shepherd (I Pet. 5:3-4) one institutional body (I Cor. 12:27).