Christ's Return: Spiritual or Physical?

[asterisktom]

Sorry, Sir, but the error is YOURS, and it comes from reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolism/apocalyptic language".

Now, in the Olivet Discourse, did Jesus not predict war/rumor of war, persecution of Christians with decapitations, Jerusalem's being trod underfoot by gentiles til the gentiles' time was up, the coming of false messiahs & "prophets", that many would be "offended", with betrayals common, among other things?(As well as the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple.) And did/are these things occurring, or have already occurred LITERALLY, TO THE LETTER of Jesus' prophecy?

Yes, they occurred just as Jesus predicted. There are two basic problems in these first comments of yours.

1. You don't believe Christ's assurance that "all these things" would come to pass in that generation.

2. You fail to recognize audience relevance. This is written to the Jews of that time, although the results of it certainly concern us. The events are not worldwide.

 

[robycop3]

Yes, they occurred just as Jesus predicted. There are two basic problems in these first comments of yours.

1. You don't believe Christ's assurance that "all these things" would come to pass in that generation.

OF COURSE I don't, cuz they DIDN'T ! !

2. You fail to recognize audience relevance. This is written to the Jews of that time, although the results of it certainly concern us. The events are not worldwide.

So, when Jesus proclaimed His Gospel to some Jews, it was for them only ? ? ?

So, "all the tribes of the earth"(Matt. 24:30) means "Jews only"?

WOW!

With such assertions, no wonder preterism is the butt of so many jokes!

Thanx for confirming my statement about "NO BELIEVABLE EVIDENCE" !

 

[asterisktom]

OF COURSE I don't, cuz they DIDN'T ! !



So, when Jesus proclaimed His Gospel to some Jews, it was for them only ? ? ?

So, "all the tribes of the earth"(Matt. 24:30) means "Jews only"?

WOW!

With such assertions, no wonder preterism is the butt of so many jokes!

Thanx for confirming my statement about "NO BELIEVABLE EVIDENCE" !

Of course not. The Gospel is for all. But it was proclaimed first to the Jews.

"Tribes of the land" is the phrase. "Tribes" is not used to describe nations. "Land" is the land of Israel. If you check the cross reference you should see the Zech. reference.

And thank you for the opportunity to answer basic questions. I know that you don't take preterism seriously, but that is your loss.

Preterism is the only ism that is consistent with all passages. As a believer in the Five Solas I try to never let other "proofs" overrule the unadorned and pure testimony of the Word.

 

[robycop3]

Of course not. The Gospel is for all. But it was proclaimed first to the Jews.

"Tribes of the land" is the phrase. "Tribes" is not used to describe nations. "Land" is the land of Israel. If you check the cross reference you should see the Zech. reference.

And thank you for the opportunity to answer basic questions. I know that you don't take preterism seriously, but that is your loss.

Preterism is the only ism that is consistent with all passages. As a believer in the Five Solas I try to never let other "proofs" overrule the unadorned and pure testimony of the Word.

Sorry, Sir, but Scripture trumps preterism yet again. The Greek for 'earth' in Matt. 24:3o is "ge", which simply means 'land or earth' For it to mean "land of Israel", it'd hafta read "ge Yisrael".. So, Jesus' words were correctly translated as "tribes of the EARTH" here.

No, preterism is NOT consistent with all the passages, as the eschatological events have simply NOT yet occurred! I, and others, have repeatedly asked preterists for some **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** that any of these events have already occurred, & all they've provided is opinion & guesswork.

And, of course, there's the FACT that the world has gone right on, same as it was in 69 AD & in 71 AD. When Jesus returns, the antichrist will be in power & will try to attack Him with his army, as Scripture says. OBVIOUSLY, THAT HASN'T YET HAPPENED ! !

So, OF COURSE I don't take preterism seriously, as it's all a fantasy, same as Mary's perpetual virginity or the gold plates of Mormon. Its followers can't prove a thing about it.[/I]

 

[robycop3]

Yes, they occurred just as Jesus predicted. There are two basic problems in these first comments of yours.

1. You don't believe Christ's assurance that "all these things" would come to pass in that generation.

On the contrary, I believe what Jesus ACTUALLY said, 100%. He was speaking of the Jewish people. Look CLOSELY at the meanings of the Greek "genea".

It's QUITE-OBVIOUS those events did NOT occur in the generation that was here when Jesus was.

Now, we have repeatedly asked preterists to **PROVE** their assertions, and they simply can't do it! When they see people won't believe their goofy explanations, I. E. "the eagles on the Romans' ensigns was the AOD", then they try to reduce "inconvenient" scriptures to "symbolic/apocalyptic" language so they can fit Scripture to their philosophy. THAT won't work, either! That's a method cultists use to make Scripture mean anything THEY choose.

Sportzz fanzz, just believeScripture as literally as it allows, & you won't go wrong, nor fall for anything silly as preterism. And remember, Jesus will return PHYSICALLY, LITERALLY, AND VISIBLY at the time His Father has appointed. There's NO secret or invisible return in Scripture.

 

[asterisktom]

On the contrary, I believe what Jesus ACTUALLY said, 100%. He was speaking of the Jewish people. Look CLOSELY at the meanings of the Greek "genea".

It's QUITE-OBVIOUS those events did NOT occur in the generation that was here when Jesus was.

Yes, by all means, let us look closely at this word. Here are the occurrences of the word:

Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51;18:8; 17:25; 21:32.

In none of these other occurrences can the word mean "race". They refer to a group of people from the same time period. Contemporaries.

The only reason you make that one occurrence mean "race" is that you are letting your theology dictate your Bible reading, rather than having the Bible determine your theology.

 

[asterisktom]

On the contrary, I believe what Jesus ACTUALLY said, 100%. He was speaking of the Jewish people. Look CLOSELY at the meanings of the Greek "genea".

It's QUITE-OBVIOUS those events did NOT occur in the generation that was here when Jesus was.

There would be a slim semblance of probability of you being correct if this quote from Jesus was one of a kind. But it is not. He also, as well as those inspired by Him, spoke of the Parousia as something that was "about to happen".

An interesting study for those who care to look closer into this is to find all the references to the word "mello". It occurs many times in the NT. Most translators render it as "about to" - except for those few passages that are eschatological, in which case they render it simple future. Once again, a case of prior theology determining Bible interpretation instead of the other way around.

And how about Matt. 16:27 - 28?

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Take a good hard, honest look at that passage. Do not just reach for the commentaries and glosses. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

 

[Lodic]

We must all remember that Satan works 24/7 to deceive both the lost & the saved. He wants to keep the lost lose, and cause the saved to backslide, and to limit their ability to spread the Gospel, if he can. He has a "scratch" doctrine for every itching ear, and is constantly inventing hedinistic pleasures for man to try to keep his attention from God.

Satan loves it when men don't believe he exists, or is mostly powerless. He knows such people are his best pawns. And as for us Christians, let's never forget that Satan was created as the most powerful of the Cherubim, which are the most-powerful of created beings. ONLY GOD IS MORE-POWERFUL THAN SATAN!

Now, I'm not sitting here praising Satan! I'm just reminding people of how powerful he is, and that we have no chance against him without GOD. But remember, God said to the Christian, "Resist the devil, & he shall flee from you". But, like 'The Terminator', he'll be back!

As for Satan's illusions to one who undergoes a NDE, remember, God said he can transform to appear as an angel of light. But what he CANNOT is imitate Jesus so that he appears to be Jesus!

Jesus gave us a good bit of details about His return and the events surrounding it for a reason. He said EVERYONE will see it,& that evidently includes the souls now in sheol/hades, be they in paradise or torments. The coming 'antichrist', who will be indwelt by Satan, & who will claim to be God, will deceive all who give their hearts to him & take his 'mark', but he CANNOT imitate the return of JESUS. That return will be LITERAL & PHYSICAL, & won't be mistaken for anything else, no matter what the antichrist does or says. Shortly after Jesus "touches down" on the Mt. of Olives, the antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire, becoming its first residents.

Long as we keep our attention on GOD, we will be safe from Satan!

I agree with a lot of what you have to say, especially with your warnings about Satan. He's a lot smarter than we give him credit for. Regarding the "angel of light" reference, you are absolutely right, Brother. He is behind messages that people want to hear which have nothing to do with the Truth of Scripture.

I also agree that we expect a literal and physical return of Jesus. However, I also believe Jesus "came" in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70, and that was the subject of most of Revelation and of the Olivet Discourse. I don't believe there is such a person as "the Antichrist". Having said that, I believe the Beast in Revelation was Nero. The False Prophet was apostate Israel.

Even with our different viewpoints, we certainly agree on important issues. As you quoted, we must resist the devil so he will flee. We must carry the Gospel to the nations as per the Great Commission. And, of course, we look for His return.

 

[asterisktom]

Sportzz fanzz, just believeScripture as literally as it allows, & you won't go wrong, nor fall for anything silly as preterism.

You are confirming exactly what I warned you about earlier; you are repeating the mistakes of the first-century Jews. The Pharisees, Sadducees, and even the Disciples (in the early stage of their learning curve) would have agreed wholeheartedly to your hermeneutic of believing Scripture "as literally as it allows".

And they did go wrong. The Gospels are full of these mistakes of being literal when spiritual understanding was called for.

 

[robycop3]

Yes, by all means, let us look closely at this word. Here are the occurrences of the word:

Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51;18:8; 17:25; 21:32.

In none of these other occurrences can the word mean "race". They refer to a group of people from the same time period. Contemporaries.

The only reason you make that one occurrence mean "race" is that you are letting your theology dictate your Bible reading, rather than having the Bible determine your theology

Sir, you're still trying to skate around the FACT that those events HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED. If they HAD, you could provide **PROOF** they had.

Now, most of the "this generation"s in the NT are "taute genea" in the Greek."Taute" does mean "this" whatever its antecedent may be, while in Matt. 24:34 & in Luke 21:32, the Greek word rendered "this" is "houtos", which can also mean "that, these, or them". But it's quite-obvious that Jesus was NOT referring to the generation alive while He was here.

 

[robycop3]

You are confirming exactly what I warned you about earlier; you are repeating the mistakes of the first-century Jews. The Pharisees, Sadducees, and even the Disciples (in the early stage of their learning curve) would have agreed wholeheartedly to your hermeneutic of believing Scripture "as literally as it allows".

And they did go wrong. The Gospels are full of these mistakes of being literal when spiritual understanding was called for.

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

History is replete with false prophets, messiahs, & other apostates saying, "THIS Scripture ACTUALLY manns blah-blah", trying to fit Scripture into their false doctrines. AND PRETERISTS ARE NO DIFFERENT! Prets KNOW history does NOT support their assertions, so they try to bend Scripture to fit them.

Well, it WON'T WORK! Square pegs won't fit round holes!

I believe you agree that the parts of the Olivet Discourse that HAVE cometa pass have done so LITERALLY, TO THE LETTER. I pointed out those things the other day. Thus, there's simply NO LEGITIMATE REASON to believe the rest won't cometa pass JUST-AS-EXACTLY & LITERALLY!

Again, the ONLY way preterists can show their doctrine is not false is to show us **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** those events have actually already occurred! And so far, they're batting ZERO!

 

[asterisktom]

Sir, you're still trying to skate around the FACT that those events HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED. If they HAD, you could provide **PROOF** they had.

Now, most of the "this generation"s in the NT are "taute genea" in the Greek."Taute" does mean "this" whatever its antecedent may be, while in Matt. 24:34 & in Luke 21:32, the Greek word rendered "this" is "houtos", which can also mean "that, these, or them". But it's quite-obvious that Jesus was NOT referring to the generation alive while He was here.

Now who is skating? The issue is not just on the "this". That is just one of Christ's pronouncements. You have not at all accounted for the "There are some standing here..." passage.

The "proof" you are looking for is the same as the mistaken Jews of that time. They were looking for visible tokens of a visible kingdom.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

OK. You are right to point that out. I worded that wrong. He obviously was physical when He presented Himself to the disciple. At some point post ascension He returned to His pre-incarnation form. Is that clear enough?

But that does not mean that He was to return in a physical form. If you insist, like some do, that "this same Jesus" implies that then you would also have to say that Jesus pre-incarnation would then have to be a different Jesus.

What you have been teaching on this thread is "another jesus"; "a different jesus" than The True and Living Lord Jesus Christ that was preached to the world by Apostle Paul and the Lord's other chosen Apostles.

In fact, the "jesus" that you have been preaching and teaching in this thread is the same as taught by the Seventh Day Adventists and the Watchtower Society better known today as Jehovah's Witnesses. Both are proven false prophets that deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and deny His physical return. Both of the false prophets have also taught "invisible return" dates of their false jesus a.k.a. Michael the Archangel, of which they also deny to be God.

I can prove this case with direct quotations from their antichrist writings. Moreover, this false doctrine did NOT originate in the Baptist Church. It originated from within the Occult, by the Gnostics, propagated by the false prophets. True to the warning by Apostle Paul in 2Peter 2-3, and the parallel warning in Jude, these false teachers have carried these danable heresies, even denying The Risen Lord Jesus Christ into Churches, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with Believers.

I take Apostle Paul's instruction in 2Corinthians 11 very serious, and very literal when it comes to those preaching "another jesus", as well as Apostle John's instruction in 1John 4:1-5 pertaining to those that deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. {Present Perfect Tense}.

Christians have provided you with more than enough correction. My post is simply to affirm that what they have provided is sound Biblical Doctrine that refutes the damnable heresy of "another jesus".

Anyone that preaches "another jesus" is NOT our Brother or Sister. Apostle Paul and Apostle John made that clear in their Epistles. This is End Times Deception.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
.......
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
.......
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

P.S. I am not ashamed to use the KJB 1611

 

[robycop3]

Now who is skating? The issue is not just on the "this". That is just one of Christ's pronouncements. You have not at all accounted for the "There are some standing here..." passage.

The "proof" you are looking for is the same as the mistaken Jews of that time. They were looking for visible tokens of a visible kingdom.

This was fulfilled at Jesus' transfiguration where some of the disciples saw Him with Moses & Elijah in Matt. 17. This has been answered umpteen times before.

You seem like an intelligent man. Why can't you see that preterism is simply a fantasy? There is NO evidence supporting it; just the goofy attempts by men trying to fill in its blanks, I. E. "Caesar's image on Roman coins was the mark of the beast, the eagles on Roman standards & ensigns was the AOD, Josephus saw chariots in the sky." (Funny, only Josephus saw them, and none of the population of Jerusalem did!)

No matter how many stories you invent, or relate from some other fantasy writer, NOTHING will replace actual **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** that the prophesied eschatological events have actually already occurred! And trying to limit them to just the Jews is another silly invention of men, not found in Scripture. Remember, Jesus said EVERY EYE will see His return, even those who pierced Him. Those who pierced Him were ROMANS.

**PRETERISM - PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE !**

 

[robycop3]

What you have been teaching on this thread is "another jesus"; "a different jesus" than The True and Living Lord Jesus Christ that was preached to the world by Apostle Paul and the Lord's other chosen Apostles.

In fact, the "jesus" that you have been preaching and teaching in this thread is the same as taught by the Seventh Day Adventists and the Watchtower Society better known today as Jehovah's Witnesses. Both are proven false prophets that deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and deny His physical return. Both of the false prophets have also taught "invisible return" dates of their false jesus a.k.a. Michael the Archangel, of which they also deny to be God.

I can prove this case with direct quotations from their antichrist writings. Moreover, this false doctrine did NOT originate in the Baptist Church. It originated from within the Occult, by the Gnostics, propagated by the false prophets. True to the warning by Apostle Paul in 2Peter 2-3, and the parallel warning in Jude, these false teachers have carried these danable heresies, even denying The Risen Lord Jesus Christ into Churches, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with Believers.

I take Apostle Paul's instruction in 2Corinthians 11 very serious, and very literal when it comes to those preaching "another jesus", as well as Apostle John's instruction in 1John 4:1-5 pertaining to those that deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. {Present Perfect Tense}.

Christians have provided you with more than enough correction. My post is simply to affirm that what they have provided is sound Biblical Doctrine that refutes the damnable heresy of "another jesus".

Anyone that preaches "another jesus" is NOT our Brother or Sister. Apostle Paul and Apostle John made that clear in their Epistles. This is End Times Deception.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
.......
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
.......
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

P.S. I am not ashamed to use the KJB 1611

Jesus said everyone will see His return, even those who pierced Him, so evidently the souls in sheol/hades shall see His return, same as all mortal men upon the earth. And He will return physically, in His full power & glory. And He will be in a body. What type of body I don't know, but everyone will know it's He.

(P.S.

I don't use the KJV(NOT "KJB") much, as it's not in OUR English, has its share of goofs & booboos, and the KJVO myth is as false as the preterism myth.)

 

[asterisktom]

I take Apostle Paul's instruction in 2Corinthians 11 very serious, and very literal when it comes to those preaching "another jesus", as well as Apostle John's instruction in 1John 4:1-5 pertaining to those that deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. {Present Perfect Tense}.

Apparently I take those verses more seriously than you, since you don't seem to understand them. That second passage was directed against the docetists and proto-gnostics who insisted that Christ did not materially come into the world, that He only seemed to be physical. I certainly affirm that Christ came into the world physically. It is a cornerstone of our faith.

As far as "another jesus" is concerned, I have a question for you, Heretic Hunter: Did Jesus first come into existence at the Incarnation? If so, the Jesus prior-Incarnation - according to your definition - must be a different Jesus, since He was not physical then.

Would Jesus be a different Jesus if were no longer physical (The "days of His flesh")? For that matter, do any of us lose our identity when we die and lose our physical bodies?

 

[asterisktom]

This was fulfilled at Jesus' transfiguration where some of the disciples saw Him with Moses & Elijah in Matt. 17. This has been answered umpteen times before.

You seem like an intelligent man. Why can't you see that preterism is simply a fantasy?

So you actually believe Christ, in effect, said that "Some of you are going to be alive a week from now"? Really?

Look carefully at that verse. Mark 9:1:

"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power."

Can you honestly tell me that happened at the Transfiguration? Or that Christ would make such an insipid, pointless remark that some of them would survive the week to see it? Please.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So you actually believe Christ, in effect, said that "Some of you are going to be alive a week from now"? Really?

Look carefully at that verse. Mark 9:1:

"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power."

Can you honestly tell me that happened at the Transfiguration? Or that Christ would make such an insipid, pointless remark that some of them would survive the week to see it? Please.

Of course, that's exactly what He said and you should be ashamed to accuse your Lord of making insipid statements.
What the Lord Jesus said is that most of the disciples would not live to see Christ coming in His kingdom, but there were some that would.see Him. That is what happened (Mark 9:2-14), as witnessed by Peter (2 Peter 1:16-17). 'For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming [or 'arrival'] of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honour and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "this is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' Power, coming, honour and glory came to Christ at the Tranfiguration,and some witnessed it, which is more than can be said for the mythical 'coming' in AD 70.

I haven't involved myself in this thread previously because constant repetition becomes tedious. However, notwithstanding your O.P., the whole Hyperpreterist error falls in the light of Acts 1:11, as has been pointed out ad tedium.

 

[asterisktom]

Of course, that's exactly what He said and you should be ashamed to accuse your Lord of making insipid statements.

I seem to remember you writing somewhere else that you were going to try to be kinder to others here. I was impressed with that. It reminded me to try to be the same, as Christians ought to be.

Why, then, are you not ashamed to accuse me lyingly as if I discredited our Lord. I was pointing out - and still do - that if Christ was indeed saying, in effect, that "some here would be alive by next week ... "that would be an insipid thing for Him to say. Utterly unworthy of Him

I was pointing out the gross, Christ-dishonoring fallacy of that interpretation.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

Apparently I take those verses more seriously than you, since you don't seem to understand them. That second passage was directed against the docetists and proto-gnostics who insisted that Christ did not materially come into the world, that He only seemed to be physical. I certainly affirm that Christ came into the world physically. It is a cornerstone of our faith.

As far as "another jesus" is concerned, I have a question for you, Heretic Hunter: Did Jesus first come into existence at the Incarnation? If so, the Jesus prior-Incarnation - according to your definition - must be a different Jesus, since He was not physical then.

Would Jesus be a different Jesus if were no longer physical (The "days of His flesh")? For that matter, do any of us lose our identity when we die and lose our physical bodies?

You are using the very same arguments that had already been hashed out by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Did you learn this antichrist doctrine of "another jesus" from the Jehovah's Witnesses or from the Seventh Day Adventists?