Christ's Return: Spiritual or Physical?

[robycop3]

Thanks for responding, Lodic. I need to crash right now so I will respond more fully later. I believe that one of the best proofs for Full Preterism is 1 Cor 15.

More later. The people in our previous hotel were loud all night. I have higher hopes for this one.

No; both full & partial preterism are wrong. ! Cor. 15 is about Jesus' time after He was resurrected, but before He returned to heaven. It is NOT about His coming glorious return when He will be seen by all.

Sorry, prets, but you don't have one quark of **PROOF** to sustain your assertions. The prophesied eschatological events simply haven't yet happened, simple as THAT!

 

[Yeshua1]

Help me understand this. When people die now, their souls go to Heaven. Does everyone get a new physical body when Jesus comes again?

The dead in Christ will return with him and be reunited with their physical/glorified bodies, and those of us alive here will be changed into physically glorified bodies!

 

[Yeshua1]

Please provide a verse for this "physical bodily resurrection" for us. Thank you.

Apostle John see that the Blessed hope for us is that we shall see Him at the Second Coming, then become just as he is in that physical glorified body!

 

[Yeshua1]

Luke 24:39-43
See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

John 20:27-28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!

Beyond those plain verses, each gospel testifies to an empty tomb and the enemies of Christ cannot produce the body of Jesus.

But you already claim to believe in the physical resurrection. Has your faith suddenly left you? If not, what's the point of demanding "a verse"?

I think that he teaches when Jesus ascended, he cast off that body for a new spiritual one, without any scars or wounds!

 

[Yeshua1]

No; both full & partial preterism are wrong. ! Cor. 15 is about Jesus' time after He was resurrected, but before He returned to heaven. It is NOT about His coming glorious return when He will be seen by all.

Sorry, prets, but you don't have one quark of **PROOF** to sustain your assertions. The prophesied eschatological events simply haven't yet happened, simple as THAT!

They MUST show that in history the physical resurrection of the Church of Christ actually happened.

 

[asterisktom]

I think that he teaches when Jesus ascended, he cast off that body for a new spiritual one, without any scars or wounds!

Thank you. Basically what I believe.

 

[Lodic]

We don't actually see that terminology in scripture. It is certainly possible, but Jesus describes the intermediate state as a "dwelling place" (John 14:2) that is in the presence of Jesus. To the repentant thief on the cross, He describes it as Paradise (Luke 23:43). Paul describes his experience of temporarily entering into Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:4), and the Tree of Life is described in the "Paradise of God" in Revelation 2:7, before the Tree of Life becomes available to all persons (Revelation 22:3) who remain when the heavens and earth are united at the end of the age.

At some point, the dead will be raised and all humankind will be rejoined with their bodies. Some will be destroyed in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15; 21:8) and the righteous will reign with Christ forever (Revelation 22:5)

What do you think of those who claim to have visited Heaven during near-death experiences? Are they legit?

 

[robycop3]

Those who know me here know that I do care for real conversations - even from quite opposite positions.

Oh well. Take care. Hope that you don't become a preterist. Then you will really get the insults.

I'm done here.

OF COURSE preterism brings insults, because it's FALSE!

I, & others, have repeatedly asked the prets here to provide some **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** that what they SAY has happened, has ACTUALLY happened, and all they've provided is non-believable stuff, & often, outright-GOOFY material.

Non-believable: Josephus wrote that he saw chariots in the sky over Jerusalem. Funny that SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND other people then present, didn't see them!

Goofy: Caesar's likeness on Roman coins was the marka the beast. Well, then, there must be several "beasts" loose right now, as ALL our money bears someone's likenesses!

***PRETERISM - PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!**

_____________________________________________________________________________
Now, is there any evidence that Jesus changed bodies from the one He appeared in after His resurrection, before He returned to heaven?

You wanna focus on "in like manner"? Easy enough! The angels didn't say "EXACT manner". Now, how did He leave? He simply ASCENDED. He vanished from sight when He entered a cloud, same as a bird or aircraft does. So, when He returns, He will simply appear in the sky, & simply DESCEND.
Differences?
He will be in His full power & glory. What type of body, I don't know. What size He will be, I don't know. And, EVERYONE SHALL SEE HIM, even those in sheol/hades. Other than that, His descent will be just like His ascent.
The Greek here is "hos tropos", & "in like manner" seemstabee an accurate English translation.

So really, what's the prob with "in like manner"?

 

[robycop3]

What do you think of those who claim to have visited Heaven during near-death experiences? Are they legit?

Most, I don't believe. Paul said he saw things he couldn't talk about. Seems as if SATAN cast illusions upon most of these folks, especially as most saw an unidentifiable light at the end of a "tunnel".

 

[Lodic]

Most, I don't believe. Paul said he saw things he couldn't talk about. Seems as if SATAN cast illusions upon most of these folks, especially as most saw an unidentifiable light at the end of a "tunnel".

Thanks. Some accounts that I've read were not even from Christians, so that adds to the Satanic illusion.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks. Some accounts that I've read were not even from Christians, so that adds to the Satanic illusion.

Yes, as many of those experiences do not mention Jesus, but just a light, and also state that people can get to heaven apart from Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you. Basically what I believe.

You do not see Christians as ever having a physical resurrection, but all a spiritual one at death, correct?

 

[robycop3]

Thanks. Some accounts that I've read were not even from Christians, so that adds to the Satanic illusion.

We must all remember that Satan works 24/7 to deceive both the lost & the saved. He wants to keep the lost lose, and cause the saved to backslide, and to limit their ability to spread the Gospel, if he can. He has a "scratch" doctrine for every itching ear, and is constantly inventing hedinistic pleasures for man to try to keep his attention from God.

Satan loves it when men don't believe he exists, or is mostly powerless. He knows such people are his best pawns. And as for us Christians, let's never forget that Satan was created as the most powerful of the Cherubim, which are the most-powerful of created beings. ONLY GOD IS MORE-POWERFUL THAN SATAN!

Now, I'm not sitting here praising Satan! I'm just reminding people of how powerful he is, and that we have no chance against him without GOD. But remember, God said to the Christian, "Resist the devil, & he shall flee from you". But, like 'The Terminator', he'll be back!

As for Satan's illusions to one who undergoes a NDE, remember, God said he can transform to appear as an angel of light. But what he CANNOT is imitate Jesus so that he appears to be Jesus!

Jesus gave us a good bit of details about His return and the events surrounding it for a reason. He said EVERYONE will see it,& that evidently includes the souls now in sheol/hades, be they in paradise or torments. The coming 'antichrist', who will be indwelt by Satan, & who will claim to be God, will deceive all who give their hearts to him & take his 'mark', but he CANNOT imitate the return of JESUS. That return will be LITERAL & PHYSICAL, & won't be mistaken for anything else, no matter what the antichrist does or says. Shortly after Jesus "touches down" on the Mt. of Olives, the antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire, becoming its first residents.

Long as we keep our attention on GOD, we will be safe from Satan!

 

[asterisktom]

We must all remember that Satan works 24/7 to deceive both the lost & the saved. He wants to keep the lost lose, and cause the saved to backslide, and to limit their ability to spread the Gospel, if he can. He has a "scratch" doctrine for every itching ear, and is constantly inventing hedinistic pleasures for man to try to keep his attention from God.

Satan loves it when men don't believe he exists, or is mostly powerless. He knows such people are his best pawns. And as for us Christians, let's never forget that Satan was created as the most powerful of the Cherubim, which are the most-powerful of created beings. ONLY GOD IS MORE-POWERFUL THAN SATAN!

Now, I'm not sitting here praising Satan! I'm just reminding people of how powerful he is, and that we have no chance against him without GOD. But remember, God said to the Christian, "Resist the devil, & he shall flee from you". But, like 'The Terminator', he'll be back!

As for Satan's illusions to one who undergoes a NDE, remember, God said he can transform to appear as an angel of light. But what he CANNOT is imitate Jesus so that he appears to be Jesus!

Jesus gave us a good bit of details about His return and the events surrounding it for a reason. He said EVERYONE will see it,& that evidently includes the souls now in sheol/hades, be they in paradise or torments. The coming 'antichrist', who will be indwelt by Satan, & who will claim to be God, will deceive all who give their hearts to him & take his 'mark', but he CANNOT imitate the return of JESUS. That return will be LITERAL & PHYSICAL, & won't be mistaken for anything else, no matter what the antichrist does or says. Shortly after Jesus "touches down" on the Mt. of Olives, the antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire, becoming its first residents.

Long as we keep our attention on GOD, we will be safe from Satan!

IOW, preterists like me are part of Satan's methods. This is why I don't take your posts seriously, Roby. You're theology is so ingrained into you you can no longer evaluate it Biblically.

 

[asterisktom]

OF COURSE preterism brings insults, because it's FALSE!

I, & others, have repeatedly asked the prets here to provide some **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** that what they SAY has happened, has ACTUALLY happened, and all they've provided is non-believable stuff, & often, outright-GOOFY material.

Non-believable: Josephus wrote that he saw chariots in the sky over Jerusalem. Funny that SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND other people then present, didn't see them!

Evidence that you don't like you simply ignore or ridicule. How can there ever be any "proof" that would satisfy you. Do you think that Josephus, Tacitus, and the other ancient authors are liars? And who are these "several hundred thousand"? You are maybe laboring under the assumption that this is a worldwide event.

 

[robycop3]

Evidence that you don't like you simply ignore or ridicule. How can there ever be any "proof" that would satisfy you.

Very simple...Just show us an historical account of those prophesied eschatological events having actually already occurred. And, BTW, chariots in the sky was not one of them.

Do you think that Josephus, Tacitus, and the other ancient authors are liars? And who are these "several hundred thousand"? You are maybe laboring under the assumption that this is a worldwide event.

The several hunderd thousand? Well, just the whole population of Jerusalem, the Roman army surrounding it, & the people in nearby locations such as Bethlehem & Emmaus, that's all!

So, please tell us, who was the "beast", who was his sidekick the false prophet, what did the mark of the beast look like, & who administered it?

 

[robycop3]

IOW, preterists like me are part of Satan's methods. This is why I don't take your posts seriously, Roby. You're theology is so ingrained into you you can no longer evaluate it Biblically.

Ya don't take'em seriouslt cuz they **PROVE** preterism false.

No EVIDENCE = no TRUTH!

 

[Yeshua1]

Evidence that you don't like you simply ignore or ridicule. How can there ever be any "proof" that would satisfy you. Do you think that Josephus, Tacitus, and the other ancient authors are liars? And who are these "several hundred thousand"? You are maybe laboring under the assumption that this is a worldwide event.

The Sky will be split in half, there will be a Hugh earthquake when Jesus feet touch earth, the dead in Christ shall have risen, and those alive in him been glorified, NONE of that happened Ad 70!

 

[asterisktom]

Very simple...Just show us an historical account of those prophesied eschatological events having actually already occurred. And, BTW, chariots in the sky was not one of them.




The several hunderd thousand? Well, just the whole population of Jerusalem, the Roman army surrounding it, & the people in nearby locations such as Bethlehem & Emmaus, that's all!

So, please tell us, who was the "beast", who was his sidekick the false prophet, what did the mark of the beast look like, & who administered it?

This is an exercise in futility because you are looking for the wrong kinds of evidence. You are repeating the same error that the 1st century Jews did.

 

[robycop3]

This is an exercise in futility because you are looking for the wrong kinds of evidence. You are repeating the same error that the 1st century Jews did.

Sorry, Sir, but the error is YOURS, and it comes from reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolism/apocalyptic language".

Now, in the Olivet Discourse, did Jesus not predict war/rumor of war, persecution of Christians with decapitations, Jerusalem's being trod underfoot by gentiles til the gentiles' time was up, the coming of false messiahs & "prophets", that many would be "offended", with betrayals common, among other things?(As well as the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple.) And did/are these things occurring, or have already occurred LITERALLY, TO THE LETTER of Jesus' prophecy?

Having seen that the Olivet Discourse, as well as related prophecies from Daniel, Revelation, etc. have come to pass LITERALLY so far, there's simply NO valid reason to deny that the rest will come to pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY. There's NO "secret return" of Jesus prophesied in Scripture.

Daniel first mentioned the AOD & told us what it'll be - the antichrist/beast will set up his statue in the temple in Jerusalem, accompanied by his sidekick, the false prophet, and from there, the AC will declare himself to be God. THAT'LL BE THE AOD! The closest thing to it in the old temple was Antiochus Epiphanes' setting up of a statue of Jupiter in the temple, and his sacrificing a pig upon the altar, in 168-167BC, along with much destruction in Jerusalem. Some people believed this was the AOD, but JESUS said "when you see it", showing it was still future. And NOTHING of that sort occurred in the old temple after that.

And we know the Jews have the plans, materials, and even the animals ready to build another temple in short notice. That temple will be where the AOD will occur.

What about the mark of the beast? Nothing of the sort has ever occurred before, aside from ink stamps, etc. which could be easily duped or erased at will. Now, the tech exists for a permanent "mark" in the form of an embedded microchip.

You keep saying I wouldn't believe the "evidence" for preterism anyway, and so far, you're right there. Why? Because THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY BELIEVABLE EVIDENCE PRESENTED ! ! Josephus saw chariots in the sky? Funny, the entire population of Jerusalem missed seeing them, as did the entire Roman army in the area! And we're supposed to take Josephus' lone word on that, when SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND other people missed it??????????????????????????????????????

Sorry, Sir, you simply don't have one quark of credible **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** to sustain any of preterism's assertions, full or partial. Preterism is just another false man-made "ism" satan has made to try to dilute Christianity.

Plainly, Jesus' return will be PHYSICAL & FULLY VISIBLE TO EVERYONE, even souls in hades! Now, what type of body He will have, I don't know, but it will be a body, and everyone will know who it is!