Church Growth Movement

[Ed B]

....

As far as "targeting" a people group, I'd say that virtually every congregation does that -- except that they don't realize that they do. Some congregations have succesfully broken the ethnicity, social strata, language, etc., barrier, but not all that many for all the talk in that direction.

In fact, I'd lay odds that in your community if I were to attend any of the congregations holding worship there that the congregations would be highly segregated by any or all of the above people group classifications. One MIGHT have a blend of different folks if there were more than 3-4 or more congregations in your area. I'd also lay odds that some older lady would slap the ball cap off of some bearded rangy looking fellow who just happened to pop in for service. I wish that I'd never seen that done, but alas, I've seen it done in 3 different churches now.
...

Not intending to slight your other points by highlighting this one, but this is spot on. It is unintentional the vast majority of the time, but the fact is people tend to congregate in Churches where others worship like them and where they feel comfortable. We would have no desire or intention of excluding others because of race, ethnicity or social status yet it is common for our Church demographics to fall in line with racial, ethnic, linguistic categories, and maybe to a lesser extent social or economic status.


I have not seen the old matron slap a ball-cap off the head of a fellow, but I must admit I have been annoyed by the ball cap and "Big-Gulp" that were regular kit for a few members of a Church I previously attended. I will also say that their souls being exposed to the Word of God was much more important than my annoyance.

 

[gb93433]

I know that your big deal is discipleship, and that we've had these conversations before, but you seem to blast everyone who does not do things the way that you think is correct even when they are demonstrating that they are in fact successful in a biblical manner.

It has nothing to do with what I think, but rather what Jesus taught, commanded, and demonstrated. My thoughts do not just come from me. They have been perfected by interaction with others who have made disciples under threat of losing their life. From what I am able to tell Jesus and the other NT writers discipled people personally not just corporately or in small groups. Sometime talk with those who discipled people in the midst of communism, and ask them how they did it especially considering the fact that it was illegal to do evangelism and to meet with more than just a few in a home. Some of those who met together in homes were joined by informants. If it can work there it can work anywhere.

Of course God has made me with gifts that not everyone has and I reach people that others do not. Is it not obvious that every baby is different and every parent is different but all are babies and all are parents. Is it not the responsibility of parents to raise godly children? Of course that does not happen with just one parent, but within a community. In that community are many different people. It is the same way at church. No disciple can be faithfully helped in just one way. That means that small groups are not the answer. Corporate worship is not the answer. Privately meeting with others is not the answers. All are important. If I had to pick one that I believe is most helpful it is in a private. Privacy is conducive to the most accountability.

For instance, our church in Louisville did not (DO/DID NOT) have a dedicated "discipleship" program of any sort.

Jesus did not either. Jesus taught His disciples as they followed Him. The end result is what is crucial. The Holy Spirit will give you wisdom in what you should or should not do. I never disciple any two people exactly alike because each person is different and has different needs. They are unique and will also reach people in their circle of influence.

Yet they have over 80% congregational participation in the ministry of the church, which is the true picture of discipleship in the Scriptures. They lay out a task and people do it, including selling their homes so they can move to a new neighborhood so as to bring the gospel to that area! They place a call to give and people give. They place a call to study and people study. They place a call to train potential pastors and potential pastors come, eager for training. And, so it goes. What goes on at that church would be unrecognizable to you and yet we have other communities handing us checks so that we come to their neighborhood and start new church work. That is because they see the fruits of our efforts -- which are not enclosed by the walls of the church or taken up by a lot of book studies within the church.

Only the Holy Spirit does what is happening in your church. That is not a product of the CGM but God. Unless the Lord builds the house they labor in vain.

They would all tell you -- to a man -- that without God and God's Word no church growth movement would amount to a thing.

I agree 100% and that is my point too. Most CGM church pastors I have met would talk more about the latest book they read as the answer to growth rather than scripture and trusting God to work in the hearts of men and women. I found very few pastors in the CGM who would discuss what they read in their Greek NT or what God is teaching them. In fact I cannot think of one.

So, I propose doing a few diagnostic questions about your own congregation...

1. Do you have a climate-controlled building? Is it heated and air-conditioned?
2. Do you have adequate parking to hold the number of people that turn out for worship on a regular basis?
3. Do you have seating enough to hold 80% capacity at all times and some room to grow if the congregation exceeds that number?
4. Do you teach or preach in such a way as to be recognizable to the people who attend your church?
5. Do you sing music in your services of worship that the people attending that worship appreciate and are in tune with, stylistically?
6. Does your church apply any outside advertisement, list themselves in the Yellow Pages, have a web site, etc.?
7. Have you ever looked to special materials or speakers that come from a larger congregation somewhere for a concert, evangelistic event, or conference of some sort?
8. Do you believe that "healthy congregations grow naturally?"
9. Do members of your church go into the community to do outreach?
10. Do you support planting and/or assisting other congregations?

I will be most interested to see your answers!

Many of those are nice but not all are essential. How many large buildings did the early church meet in? If Christians are persecuted those buildings may empty out, and the church go underground and meet in homes. Unless the Lord builds the house they labor in vain. When the Lord build people know that it is not them but Him.

A few years ago I read a book in which the author said that a church which was about 50 sent its leaders to a church growth conference. The leaders returned and did everything that the conference suggested. After one year the church grew to about 500. Then one year later the church declined to 50. The point is that it was about doing the right things but they were not blessed by God.

 

[J.D.]

I see what you mean, but the Great Commission is not to "states" or "nations" but rather to "panta ta ethnae" -- people groups.

Ever note how Paul spoke differently to the panta ta enthnae that was Jewish versus the panta ta ethnae that was Gentile? He noted the difference between two different people groups that often lived in the same city. Because of that, I reject your concept of reaching "geographical land masses" and instead advocate that we go on mission to PEOPLE.

As far as "targeting" a people group, I'd say that virtually every congregation does that -- except that they don't realize that they do. Some congregations have succesfully broken the ethnicity, social strata, language, etc., barrier, but not all that many for all the talk in that direction.

In fact, I'd lay odds that in your community if I were to attend any of the congregations holding worship there that the congregations would be highly segregated by any or all of the above people group classifications. One MIGHT have a blend of different folks if there were more than 3-4 or more congregations in your area. I'd also lay odds that some older lady would slap the ball cap off of some bearded rangy looking fellow who just happened to pop in for service. I wish that I'd never seen that done, but alas, I've seen it done in 3 different churches now.

Finally, I cannot for the life of me grasp the concept that you are putting forward as true, i.e., that a missionary somewhere, even in your empty back yard, would REJECT someone outside of his or her target mission group just because they were not whom he or she was seeking. Sheesh, you make missionaries out to be some sort of weird slasher or something. They would be SO happy to welcome in that new person no matter their cultural distinctions!

I KNOW over 100 missionaries serving on the foreign field and probably another 100+ serving here in the states as church planters, church growth specialists, etc. I cannot think of a one that would not rejoice and join the angels in heaven in singing for the redemption of aother soul!

I wonder, from your remarks, just how many actual missionaries you know, and I also wonder what is their mission?

So, if I know 200 missionaries to your 100, do I win? Of course the missionary would welcome any visitor, as would most congregations. That's not what I said. What I said was, would I FEEL welcome, and would I FIT IN.

Nevermind. Like I said previously, David said it right in a nutshell, and I should stop coming back to this. You can do whatever is right in your own eyes as long as growth (in numbers) is the result.

 

[gb93433]

You can do whatever is right in your own eyes as long as growth (in numbers) is the result.

Numbers are souls but what they do with the numbers is crucial.

 

[glfredrick]

It has nothing to do with what I think, but rather what Jesus taught, commanded, and demonstrated. My thoughts do not just come from me. They have been perfected by interaction with others who have made disciples under threat of losing their life. From what I am able to tell Jesus and the other NT writers discipled people personally not just corporately or in small groups. Sometime talk with those who discipled people in the midst of communism, and ask them how they did it especially considering the fact that it was illegal to do evangelism and to meet with more than just a few in a home. Some of those who met together in homes were joined by informants. If it can work there it can work anywhere.

I agree... With one caveat. Jesus did indeed "disciple in small groups." He had the 12, one of the classic definitions of small group discipleship. Further he had the 3, the inner circle of leaders to whom He gave special attention, but also a small group. He had the 70, which He sent out two-by-two, then counseled when they returned with testimony from their efforts on the mission field. He also had the thousands that He taught both through preaching, teaching, and example in ministry.

I believe you are far too short-sighted in your notion of the means of discipleship found in Scripture and while I know about the covert discipleship that occurs when the church is under severe persecution that is not the norm for the church most of the time. Praise God, He can work even through those circumstances!

Of course God has made me with gifts that not everyone has and I reach people that others do not. Is it not obvious that every baby is different and every parent is different but all are babies and all are parents. Is it not the responsibility of parents to raise godly children? Of course that does not happen with just one parent, but within a community. In that community are many different people. It is the same way at church. No disciple can be faithfully helped in just one way. That means that small groups are not the answer. Corporate worship is not the answer. Privately meeting with others is not the answers. All are important. If I had to pick one that I believe is most helpful it is in a private. Privacy is conducive to the most accountability.

We all have an individual set of gifts, passions, experiences, and callings that work together to further the kingdom. That is a given of Scripture and of example.

I do not find "privacy" in the examples of Scripture, however. I find that Jesus "exposed" people to the light and did so in the joint company of others. Else we would have no scriptural record of what He did!

By disavowing corporate worship and small groups -- BOTH DEMONSTRATED IN SCRIPTURE VERY AMPLY -- you disavow the very means that God gave us and showed us in His revelation.

Even in the most severe of cases -- where church discipline is extended to some individual because of their rampant sin -- we are called to go jointly to the effort. Go first by yourself, then take a witness, then tell the church. You cannot just hold to privacy as the primary means.

Additionally, let's suppose that you do disciple one-on-one, and I DO suppose that you do. Your heart on that matter is very evident. I do as well, and I do not know a pastor who does not do the same thing, but that is not to the exclusion of joint discipleship nor of gathered worship where the entire congregation is taught and preached the Word of God. Moreover, let's say that your concept of one-on-one discipleship is the only way. How many people end up discipled? Certainly not enough to operate the normal local church!

I know another pastor friend who has much the same mind as you. I called him to a church plant that I started. He was happy as a clam as soon as he had a full contingent of one-on-one disciples under him, which averaged 3 persons over the 10 years I've watched him. His church now runs around 125 but should be over 250 in his community. Another pastor friend started a church in another community in much the same manner, except that his vision was for groups and congregational ministry. His congregation now runs 250+ in 4 years. Among the two congregational members I find the second pastor's people MORE EFFECTIVE in reaching others because their model has always been to reach others, while in the case of the first church they are not effective at all in reaching others because their primary model has always been one-on-one discipleship, and they are as happy as ever to just sit at each other's feet and study. Just one anecdotal example and definitely not some sort of model to say that one way is best, but I have seen this lived out in any number of congregations over the years -- especially ones that did not grow! They are always worried about personal and individual holiness instead of reaching the lost who have no hope of holiness at all (and don't read that as if I am against personal holiness).

Jesus did not either. Jesus taught His disciples as they followed Him. The end result is what is crucial. The Holy Spirit will give you wisdom in what you should or should not do. I never disciple any two people exactly alike because each person is different and has different needs. They are unique and will also reach people in their circle of influence.

Well and good! That is what should happen, just more than one at a time!

Only the Holy Spirit does what is happening in your church. That is not a product of the CGM but God. Unless the Lord builds the house they labor in vain.

I agree. God is at work in our congregation and the model is not what you describe. We are also growing rapidly and more people are coming under the saving influence of the gospel every day. The people are RADICAL in their salvation. They will go to the ends of the earth to do what God calls them to do, and they have! But the reason I presented that model is to say, simply, that your model is NOT THE ONLY ONE.

I agree 100% and that is my point too. Most CGM church pastors I have met would talk more about the latest book they read as the answer to growth rather than scripture and trusting God to work in the hearts of men and women. I found very few pastors in the CGM who would discuss what they read in their Greek NT or what God is teaching them. In fact I cannot think of one.

How many do you actually know? I know a LOT, and many of them the influential men who WROTE those books. They would tell you to go to God and to the Scriptures for salvation and that CGM is for the building and culture.

Many of those are nice but not all are essential. How many large buildings did the early church meet in? If Christians are persecuted those buildings may empty out, and the church go underground and meet in homes. Unless the Lord builds the house they labor in vain. When the Lord build people know that it is not them but Him.

SURE WISH that you had actually answered those questions, but you rightly understand that they would implicate you as already practicing what it is that you disavow. Most churches do...

About the greater point: I've noted that AS SOON as the church had the means they began meeting in large venues. Scholars point out that the Jerusalem church likely had 15,000 members (3000 added one day, 5000 another!) and that the Antioch church -- the primary mission-sending and supporting church to the Gentiles -- had as many as 25,000 members.

What happens when the church is persecuted is one thing, what they will do when they are not is another. We should not live AS IF we are persecuted if we are not. I note that even when the earliest church WAS persecuted by the leaders of Jerusalem they met AT THE TEMPLE in public in large gatherings (5000 saved, 3000 saved). That is mega-church.

A few years ago I read a book in which the author said that a church which was about 50 sent its leaders to a church growth conference. The leaders returned and did everything that the conference suggested. After one year the church grew to about 500. Then one year later the church declined to 50. The point is that it was about doing the right things but they were not blessed by God.

That can happen. But what if the techniques used were also blessed by God? Oh, I know, you end up with Saddleback, Southeast Christian, Church of the Woodlands, et al.

 

[glfredrick]

So, if I know 200 missionaries to your 100, do I win? Of course the missionary would welcome any visitor, as would most congregations. That's not what I said. What I said was, would I FEEL welcome, and would I FIT IN.

Nevermind. Like I said previously, David said it right in a nutshell, and I should stop coming back to this. You can do whatever is right in your own eyes as long as growth (in numbers) is the result.

No missionary can determine that...

And you (wrongly) presume that I am not for the gospel of Christ.

I expect that my radical expression of the gospel in congregation would be too much for you, for I fully expect my congregation to DO what it asks of us once saved. Not many will stand for that. They prefer to play church and to be pious and holy "sounding" while blaming their lack of growth on others.

 

[Sapper Woody]

From what I am able to tell Jesus and the other NT writers discipled people personally not just corporately or in small groups.

While I agree with a lot that you say, remember that Jesus had more than just the 12 Apostles. He had many (at least 70) disciples. He only had 3.5 years in which to teach them. If he did this personally, that's only 18 days per person, and that's if you include the days when he was teaching to multitudes, traveling, healing crowds, and staying with other people as a guest.

I see no problem with discipling several people at once. After all, we're not the Jedi, who can only have one apprentice! :thumbs:

 

[nodak]

Well, we do have banker's church.

It just isn't called that. It tends to go by the name First Baptist in most towns.

But not everyone has the right clothes to fit in there. Not everyone can afford them. Shoot, not everyone even thinks the values and morals of the rich folk there are all that good.

We have cowboy church also in our town. It isn't just rodeo folks, but most of the agricultural bunch go there, as do the oil field folks that like the whole western culture.

We are in the west, why can't we dress and talk and act like we do?

Why are we somehow divisive and evil because we don't buy into the whole yuppie subculture? We have a yuppie styled church also, with a casual dressing, sandal wearing, starbucks drinking, thinks he's young restless and reformed purpose driven preacher.

Some folks want to go back to the old values and ways--in our town that is mostly the under 35 crowd.

Now, personally, I like seeing young families wanting to be more like the Waltons or the Ingalls than like the Simpsons.

I see the CGM as bad, though.

I think the truth has been watered down just to get nickles and noses in the building.

The cry of "divisive" comes from the mega church mindset--that all the baptists in town need to come to MY church and do things MY way.

Uh, nope, Baptists were known for forming as many churches as they blame well wanted to in a given town.

Good current Christianity Today article on how the physical form of the Bible has changed the church culture through time.

Relevant to the topic.

 

[gb93433]

I believe you are far too short-sighted in your notion of the means of discipleship found in Scripture and while I know about the covert discipleship that occurs when the church is under severe persecution that is not the norm for the church most of the time. Praise God, He can work even through those circumstances!

If you knew me then you would not make that statement. What would you do if 20 people within a short time asked oyu to meet with them. I would think you would do the same thing I did. I met with them as a group and met with some as individuals. I did my best to reach them in the most effective way I could. I have also met with just one person. I have also preached in a youth conference that drew from about 700 churches.

In Acts 20 Paul tells the listeners that the Holy Spirit has made them the overseers. An overseer watches and cares for the flock and does whatever it takes to help make each person well. I grew up on a farm and we watched our herd, but if an animal was sick we cared for it individually. We did whatever it took to help make the individual animal well. There were times when we spent hours and weeks caring for a sick animal. We fed the cattle as a group but we also doctored the individual animals that was sick. Sometimes it required medicine and sometimes it required a scalpel. Sometime when you get a chance visit a chicken farm. When a chicken is sick the other chickens will pounce on it and eventually make it bleed. When it bleeds the others will start pecking the bleeding spot until the chicken dies. Recently I met with a young person who saw that happen in a church and the leadership did nothing. I met with that person in private addressing their issues and pointed the person to scripture trying to encourage the person to find a good church that had good leadership.

I believe that people are discipled in three ways and it is important for each to be there. 1) corporately as an assembly 2) small group instruction and care as a small community 3) individually.

We all have an individual set of gifts, passions, experiences, and callings that work together to further the kingdom. That is a given of Scripture and of example.

Of course but then reality hits when you ask yourself “how many less than 100% are doing that. What is done about the one that got away? Do you know who those are who got away in the church you attend? If not then why not?
There is also great value as a large assembly. When I was a kid I went to a church of at least 6,000. Others seem small to me. Your church would be small compared to what my experience was.
Two years ago I met a young man who was a declared atheist. He was going to the same church I was and heard the same sermons I heard. He went to the church because his family did. I found out later that nobody in leadership knew what was going on his mind. The first time I met him we talked for 2.5 hours. In that discussion I told him that there were answers to his doubts and questions. He looked at me and said “There are?” The next time I met with him for about the same length of time. I showed him some interaction with one who had left a large church and was an elder but now runs a well known website devoted to atheism. After the two meeting she became a follower of Jesus. He now meets with other men and disciples them. I met with him each week and at times for as long as four hours. He was hungry to grow.

Less than one year ago I started meeting with a young man who told me on the second meeting that he had never read his Bible at home. When I first started meeting I handed him a Bible study that helps to develop habits in people that will help them grow as a Christian. During that meeting I asked him if there was anyone he knew that he could pray for and possibly start meeting with. By the next week when I met with him he told me that he had gone through the same Bible study with a friend of his. His friend was trouble in the church he went to. His pastor saw me meeting with the young man and told me later that he knew the young man and his friend and that his friend did not like coming to church and acted as though he did not care. The friend was sleeping with his girl friend and after some time the friend broke off the relationship with his girlfriend and started growing. The friend was to leave to go into the military in three months. The young man did not know how to help his friend at the time but as we met I helped him to encourage the friend to do the right thing and tell him the truth. In just a few weeks both of them were studying scripture and doing things together.
Both of those men went to church and were in a small group.
Sometime study the historical background of Mt. 18:20. It is about how rabbis in training studied and helped one another. That is two or three people.

I do not find "privacy" in the examples of Scripture, however.

Children being trained and the historical context of Matthew 18:20.

Acts 8: 27-31 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Even in the most severe of cases -- where church discipline is extended to some individual because of their rampant sin -- we are called to go jointly to the effort. Go first by yourself, then take a witness, then tell the church. You cannot just hold to privacy as the primary means.

The first step is individually, in private.

Additionally, let's suppose that you do disciple one-on-one, and I DO suppose that you do. Your heart on that matter is very evident. I do as well, and I do not know a pastor who does not do the same thing, but that is not to the exclusion of joint discipleship nor of gathered worship where the entire congregation is taught and preached the Word of God. Moreover, let's say that your concept of one-on-one discipleship is the only way.

It is not. There have been times when I could not meet with everyone. There were too many who asked me to meet with them.

How many people end up discipled? Certainly not enough to operate the normal local church!

Many times larger than any local church. Jesus proved that. While I was in college when I came to Christ I later built a team of about 85. What is the average size of a congregation in your denomination? I am just one person. That is less than 4 years as a student at a college. The actual time from when I started meeting with one person was closer to two years. Everyone of them were at least in a Bible study and most of them were meeting with others.

A few years ago I pastored a church that went from 90 to 220 in 18 months in a town of 1100. That church grew from 25 to 89 ten years earlier because a local pastor got very sick and they could not find a pastor to come. So the church disbanded. The church I pastoredhad grown one person in 10 years. Up until the time I put a stop to it they had a regular practice of inviting the Mormon bishop to come once a year and preach. Both of the previous two pastors who allowed the practice to continue are now working in the denomination. So much for those pastors making disciples.
One man I know was discipled individually and he is now the leader of a denomination that has the largest per capita giving in the U.S. to missions. That denomination has many more churches in other countries than here. Their largest number is in Vietnam and that was largely due to what happened in the war. That is what can happen with one person being discipled and training others to disciple others.

I know another pastor friend who has much the same mind as you. I called him to a church plant that I started. He was happy as a clam as soon as he had a full contingent of one-on-one disciples under him, which averaged 3 persons over the 10 years I've watched him. His church now runs around 125 but should be over 250 in his community. Another pastor friend started a church in another community in much the same manner, except that his vision was for groups and congregational ministry. His congregation now runs 250+ in 4 years.

What was the size of the church Jesus started? How big is it today. Was He wrong in what he did and commanded? The man you mentioned may have had different gifts and hence a different focus. Is there something wrong with the way God chose to gift him? Living the Christian life is not about pastors pastoring large church or pastors pastoring small church. It is about the church doing what it is commanded to do. How many people was Jesus talking to when he told them to make disciples?

Well and good! That is what should happen, just more than one at a time!

By addition you are right. By multiplication you are wrong. Just compare the numbers below by addition of 100 per day and discipling one person every two years for forty years. Evangelism and Bible studies for the most part are addition. Multiplication is training people to reach and train others so they can reach others and train others who reach and train others.

 

[gb93433]

Generations
Number of people by multiplication (discipleship)
by Addition of 100 per day (evangelism only)
1
2
36,000
2
4
72,000
3
8
108,000
4
16
144,000
5
32
180,000
6
64
216,000
7
128
252,000
8
256
288,000
9
512
324,000
10
1,024
360,000
11
2,048
396,000
12
4,096
432,000
13
8,192
468,000
14
16,384
504,000
15
32,768
540,000
16
65,536
576,000
17
131,072
612,000
18
262,144
648,000
19
524,288
684,000
20
1,048,576
720,000


The following is a quote from the book Guide to Spiritual Warfare by E.M. Bounds

To mistake the true power of the church's strength is to mistake the true character of the church. When its character is changed, then all its efforts and aims are also changed. The strength of the church lies in its devotion to God. All else is incidental and is not the source of its strength. But in worldly, popular language, a local church is called strong when its membership is large, and when it has social position and financial resources. A church is thought to be powerful when ability, learning, and eloquence fill the pulpit, and when the pews are filled by fashion, intelligence, money, and influence. An assumption of this kind is worldly to the fullest extent.

. . . The church's strength is not found in these worldly attachments or endowments, but in the endowment of the Holy Spirit on its members.

On the contrary, show us a church that is poor, illiterate, obscure, and unknown, but composed of praying people. They may not be men of power, wealth, or influence. Their families may not know one week where they are to get their bread for the next. But with them is "the hiding of [God's] power" (Habakkuk 3:4), and their influence will be felt for eternity. Wherever they go there is a fountain of light, Christ in them is glorified, and His kingdom is advanced. They are His chosen vessels of salvation who reflect His light.

How many do you actually know? I know a LOT, and many of them the influential men who WROTE those books. They would tell you to go to God and to the Scriptures for salvation and that CGM is for the building and culture.

Have you ever had any discussion with any of them asking them about how they personally make disciples. One of those a few years ago was a leader in your denomination and past pres. of one of its seminaries. When I asked him some questions he walked away with his head down. He has written some CGM books.

About the greater point: I've noted that AS SOON as the church had the means they began meeting in large venues. Scholars point out that the Jerusalem church likely had 15,000 members (3000 added one day, 5000 another!) and that the Antioch church -- the primary mission-sending and supporting church to the Gentiles -- had as many as 25,000 members.

Where did they meet? How big were the buildings? How climate controlled was it in Israel especially in the summer?

What happens when the church is persecuted is one thing, what they will do when they are not is another. We should not live AS IF we are persecuted if we are not.

That is the reason why so many young people are no longer going to church. So many churches are about things that do not really matter. Just ask people how often they read their Bible each week. When is the last time you had personal interaction with college students.

But what if the techniques used were also blessed by God? Oh, I know, you end up with Saddleback, Southeast Christian, Church of the Woodlands, et al.

God blesses people and guides them as He sees fit. It is not a one size fits all as so many would suggest by the books that have been written. Have you ever talked with Rick Warren personally? I have. Your assessment of the person’s leadership and the techniques is so wrongly placed. I have seen churches try and put those techniques in place and die.

While I love to preach to large groups I still know that the hard work is the day to day living out what Christ commanded.

Jesus grew a large church but started with how many? Know of any that big? Not one comes even close.

 

[gb93433]

While I agree with a lot that you say, remember that Jesus had more than just the 12 Apostles. He had many (at least 70) disciples. He only had 3.5 years in which to teach them. If he did this personally, that's only 18 days per person, and that's if you include the days when he was teaching to multitudes, traveling, healing crowds, and staying with other people as a guest.

I see no problem with discipling several people at once. After all, we're not the Jedi, who can only have one apprentice! :thumbs:

When we start we must ask ourselves: Why would God entrust us with many if we have not been faithful with at least one?

Why would we entrust someone to build our home if he calls himself a carpenter but has never built a home.

Why would we want to follow a pastor who calls himself a leader but has never led at least one person to maturity.

When I pastored I led the leaders of teams. I poured my life into a few who poured their+ life into a few. Almost anyone can help another grow but fewer lead many leaders. John Maxwell writes that strong leaders today were led by strong leaders.

When I visited homes, people in the hospital, funerals, etc. I almost always took one of more with me. The purpose was to train them to lead and maybe they would finds a ministry that fit their giftedness. I always felt that I should not be doing something that someone else could do. Let them have that blessing.

In a church I pastored as a man who lived a quiet life but did he ever share his faith. That man was one of the most credible men I have ever met. I cannot think of anyone I ever met who did not trust him. But he planted and took care of the flowers at the church. I really doubt many knew that. The man was very humble and was a tremendous example and encouragement to me. He also expressed gratitude for how I was leading the church and how it was helping his grandchildren.

While Jesus had many disciples he shared his life much more intimately with a few. That is what is so good about how genuine discipleship works. We do not have to run around busy like a chicken with our head cut off trying to get everything done. We train a few who train a few and the job gets done with more and more being reached.

When I was 21 I started a children's program with six kids. Eventually it grew to be one of the largest programs in that church. Each week I gave a one verse message. All of the workers prayed for each child. Eventually we had to split the group because the room was not large enough and we could get workers at other times. Eventually when it came time some of the children did not want to leave. So I asked the pastor if they could help. So we developed a way to train them to help and assist the children. Being in seventh grade they were beginning to work with children under adult supervision. We worked with each one to help them teach and assist us. We did that for two years and they they went into the high school group. Guess who some of the leaders in the high school group were? We trained the children to share their faith and follow up on their friends. Today those children are married and have families of their own.

 

[gb93433]

Let me be frank. If I were having an illicit affair with a woman, I'm not going to confess it to 4 guys at a Denny's breakfast. And yet, too often, Christian accountability is carried out in these types of environments. We meet in small groups in a weekly environment with a few of our friends. Ultimately, there is a lid on how transparent these conversations can be, and too often, we believe that if we are meeting weekly then we are "accountable."

My best conversations about my brokenness and struggles have come in non-typical environments. Places where I am completely relaxed, at ease, and feel removed from my daily life.

I have seen leaders every year go away for a week and meet with a coach or therapist and have this time be very effective. They dump a ton of junk, begin working strategies in their life, and start dealing with significant character issues. To be frank, I would rather have us have one week of brutal honesty than 52 weeks of semi-honesty at Denny's.

Source: http://www.churchleaders.com/pastor...er&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily-Update

This is one reason why small groups can be ineffective. It only takes one person to slip and cause damage to another.

 

[J.D.]

Well, we do have banker's church.

It just isn't called that. It tends to go by the name First Baptist in most towns.

But not everyone has the right clothes to fit in there. Not everyone can afford them. Shoot, not everyone even thinks the values and morals of the rich folk there are all that good.

We have cowboy church also in our town. It isn't just rodeo folks, but most of the agricultural bunch go there, as do the oil field folks that like the whole western culture.

We are in the west, why can't we dress and talk and act like we do?

Why are we somehow divisive and evil because we don't buy into the whole yuppie subculture? We have a yuppie styled church also, with a casual dressing, sandal wearing, starbucks drinking, thinks he's young restless and reformed purpose driven preacher.

Some folks want to go back to the old values and ways--in our town that is mostly the under 35 crowd.

Now, personally, I like seeing young families wanting to be more like the Waltons or the Ingalls than like the Simpsons.

I see the CGM as bad, though.

I think the truth has been watered down just to get nickles and noses in the building.

The cry of "divisive" comes from the mega church mindset--that all the baptists in town need to come to MY church and do things MY way.

Uh, nope, Baptists were known for forming as many churches as they blame well wanted to in a given town.

Good current Christianity Today article on how the physical form of the Bible has changed the church culture through time.

Relevant to the topic.

If the cowboy doesn't feel welcome at FBC, then FBC needs to makes sure they're doing everything they can to make them feel welcome. NOT by pretending that they themselves are cowboys - wearing jeans, whooping it up with yee-haws, etc. - this is not the solution. Talking to people and inviting them to your social events/meals, having a genuine commonality, and opening the door of leadership to them is the solution. Mostly, it's just having a sense of fellowship.

Again I say, why can't the banker and the cowboy sit down together to worship the same Christ? There is a way. The way to NOT do it is to introduce cowboy music and make the banker sit there and listen to it even if they find it offensive. There is music that glorifies God and neither culture finds offensive. It does exist. And new/offensive music is just one of the things that churches do to cause unnecessary division. But the same principle applies no matter what the divisive issue.

 

[glfredrick]

If the cowboy doesn't feel welcome at FBC, then FBC needs to makes sure they're doing everything they can to make them feel welcome. NOT by pretending that they themselves are cowboys - wearing jeans, whooping it up with yee-haws, etc. - this is not the solution. Talking to people and inviting them to your social events/meals, having a genuine commonality, and opening the door of leadership to them is the solution. Mostly, it's just having a sense of fellowship.

Again I say, why can't the banker and the cowboy sit down together to worship the same Christ? There is a way. The way to NOT do it is to introduce cowboy music and make the banker sit there and listen to it even if they find it offensive. There is music that glorifies God and neither culture finds offensive. It does exist. And new/offensive music is just one of the things that churches do to cause unnecessary division. But the same principle applies no matter what the divisive issue.

Perhaps if we stopped seeing individual congregations as the only expression of "church" and we saw instead the biblical picture that Christ would build His church (universal) we would all understand that we are yet one in Christ though we serve in different buildings wearing different clothing.

Even if we strive to have a multi-whatever-cultural congregation, we will still and always be limited by what outsiders percieve as they enter in.

I actually lead a multi-cultural church right now. We have blacks, hispanics, asians, and a number of different people group caucasians that stem from different ethnicities. We also have a few really poor folks, a few okay folks, a few middle class, a few retired a few young, etc. Anyone is welcome in our congregation, and there truly is love among the people. We have a black worship leader and a black head deacon who serves alongside a hispanic deacon. Not many others will see that in their churches. BUT... We are not really reaching people, even with all this love and diversity. Some are put off and have tried to "purify" the congregation becasue they could not trust someone of a different ethnicity or color to be their deacon or brother/sister in the Lord. Weird, huh? That's one of the reasons God tells us about our sin nature -- we have it. My goal is to utilize the diversity in this congregation to reach out, but in the end, I expect that we'll grow to be more like we already are, at least that has been my expectation all along and I've not seen that expectation broken very often (once as a matter of fact).

 

[gb93433]

Perhaps if we stopped seeing individual congregations as the only expression of "church" and we saw instead the biblical picture that Christ would build His church (universal) we would all understand that we are yet one in Christ though we serve in different buildings wearing different clothing.

Even if we strive to have a multi-whatever-cultural congregation, we will still and always be limited by what outsiders percieve as they enter in.

I actually lead a multi-cultural church right now. We have blacks, hispanics, asians, and a number of different people group caucasians that stem from different ethnicities. We also have a few really poor folks, a few okay folks, a few middle class, a few retired a few young, etc. Anyone is welcome in our congregation, and there truly is love among the people. We have a black worship leader and a black head deacon who serves alongside a hispanic deacon. Not many others will see that in their churches. BUT... We are not really reaching people, even with all this love and diversity. Some are put off and have tried to "purify" the congregation becasue they could not trust someone of a different ethnicity or color to be their deacon or brother/sister in the Lord. Weird, huh? That's one of the reasons God tells us about our sin nature -- we have it. My goal is to utilize the diversity in this congregation to reach out, but in the end, I expect that we'll grow to be more like we already are, at least that has been my expectation all along and I've not seen that expectation broken very often (once as a matter of fact).

Isn't it great to be in a chruch where everyone is welcome!!!! I was born in Los Angeles and never experienced some of the things I did in more homogeneous areas of America. There is something like 178 different languages spoken in Los Angeles.