Church of Christ

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Frank:
Dual:
Eis is translated over 1700 times in the NEW Testament.It is NEVER TRANLATED BECAUSE OF. In every sinlgle case it istranslated for or unto or to obtain the remission of sins. Baptist scholars Summers and Willaims concur. Wallace of the theological seminary in Texas affirms this, too. Write them, they are experts in Greek.
In Acts 19 those of John's baptism were immersed AFTER the New Testamment dispensation.( see Acts 2). John's baptism had been superceded by the baptism of the New Testament. Thus,they had not been baptized for unto the remission of sins in accordance with the Law of Christ.
( I Cor. 9:21, Mat. 28:18-20). A Law is IN FORCE AFTER the TESTATOR DIES.(Hebs. 9:15-19). Christ had died and rose form the dead making his law IN FORCE in Acts 19. In fact, this event, happened more than 10 years after the death burial and resurrection of Christ.
Frank

Yes, the word is translated as "for", just as I said. The meaning of the word "for" can be different, unless you think that when Christ died for our sins, he commited our sins.

"The Greek word for “for” found in the phrase translated “be baptized for the remission of sins” has two different primary meanings: “purpose” and “result.” As in English, I may say I am going to the store for a loaf of bread, expressing purpose. Or, I may say I am going to jail for stealing that bread, an expression of result. Similarly, the passage under consideration may also be legitimately translated “be baptized because of the remission of sins.” This harmonizes the verse with the many verses which make faith the only condition of salvation."

 

[Eladar]

Nils, I was never believer baptized (was Lutheran infant Baptized) because of my understanding of baptism. Can I be in "non action" when I believe with all my heart that I do not need to be dunked afetr being a Christian for more then ten years?
I really would like your comment on that. Thanks!

My question would be, do you see that the Bible instructs Christians to be baptized?

If the Bible does, then why do you feel it necessary to not be baptized?

Is it a statement? Or is it just ignoring certain parts of the Bible, because you believe it to be in contradiction with what you believe other parts of the Bible is saying?

 

[Frank]

Dual:
The Bible must harmonize. The word eis in context refers to the obtaining of remission of sins.
The gramatical construct in the greek language means for,unto the obtaining the remission of sins. The context of the passage so teaches this. The totatlity of the evidence teaches this.
ASSERTIONS ARE NOT PROOF.
An illustration is not valid unless it is harmonious with the truth of the scripture.
I do like bread and plan to stay out of jail.
Frank

 

[BPM]

Frank, as to your question of whether the thief on the cross had already been Baptised, In my view it doesn't matter because on the cross he met the saviour, his having been wet before hand meant no more than a saturday bath. I found the rest of your complaints equally unimportant but if your answer to my next question is negative I will attempt to answer them. The question of course is are you Church of Christ? If you are of this group I feel it will explain your views, if you are not then possibly you should consider joining them because your views are very compatible with theirs.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

This is a very irritating thread to read. Who are any of you to dictate to God to whom He will or will not grant salvation? Do you not view God as greater than any act of man? Would you put God under rules?

Some of you sound like a bunch of Paharisees!

 

[Briguy]

Frank, To be in Christ is to be saved for eternity, safe in the fathers hand. I really do believe that but being in Christ, in my opinion has nothing to do with the act of Baptism. I have explained my position on this so I will not again. Also Frank, why is just a simple yes or no so difficult for you. You said that if a person dies on the way to being baptized they will go to Hell. That is the only conclusion your statement can mean. That conclusion is not held by most believers.

Nils, The reason I never got baptized is that when I first trusted Christ I started reading the Bible and learning in more detail about God's word. Probably a year went by before I even started thinking seriously about Baptism. I realized that if I got baptized then, or now even, it would not be a Baptism like what we see in the Bible. As a rule people got Baptized right after they believed. It was usually the person who shared the gospel with them that did the Baptizing. It was done in public in front of believers and non believers. I realized that if I got baptized with my church (we do Baptisms at a different building right now) it would not line up with the early way of baptizing. Only other believers would be present and now it would be more then ten years after the fact. The more I study the issue the less need I see for it in the church today. You see my friends and family and neighbors know to whom I belong and so I would not be making much of a public proclamation of my faith by being Baptized. I am already affliated deeply with "The Way". Hope that clears things up.

In Christ,
Brian

[ May 06, 2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
I answered the question with the scriptures. " most believers" are not the standard for truth. Jesus said,: he that rejecteth me and receiveth not MY WORDS hath one that judgeth him; the words that I have spoken the same shall judge him in the last day." (Jn, 12:48).
Since we are talking abut questions, I asked you if one may be saved without belief. repentance, confession, according to the Bible? Can a man be saved outside Christ, according to the scriptures?
I await your biblical response.
Frank

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
I did not say that a person not baptized would go to hell.You made that rational conclusion based on evidence. Yes and no are simple answers. I answered in a biblical manner which is what Jesus requires.(Mat. 28:18-20). I just simply answered with scripture in mind. In matters of faith, opinions, feelings and what others believe do not make truth. It is the word of God that makes truth.( Jn.17:17).
Frank

 

[Eladar]

Brian,

I don't look at baptism as a beginners first act. Being baptized is carrying out the instruction of God given to us through the Bible. It is an action carried out by faith.

It is a dangerous thing espousing that we can ignore certain scripture. Don't get caught up in the pride thing, I know I was for a while. After being baptized it felt like a weight had been taken off my chest.

 

[Briguy]

Frank these verses from John are good ones:

John:3:15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Getting to Heaven is not a complicated process. Why would God make it difficult? Jesus said to some guys who were fishing, to drop their nets and follow him. He is still saying that today. If you "believe" (i.e. trust by faith in the saving blood of the lamb) you will be saved. We all can read more into scriptures then we should.
Simple message from a simple carpenter.

Nils, Thanks for your concern, I will continue to pray for direction in this area.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[susanpet]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
This is a very irritating thread to read. Who are any of you to dictate to God to whom He will or will not grant salvation? Do you not view God as greater than any act of man? Would you put God under rules?

Some of you sound like a bunch of Paharisees!

Amen, brother!! I think it is ridiclus to believe that if a person does not have the chance to be baptized, he will die and go to hell. We are atoned by Jesus' blood and being baptized is pubicly showing our confession of faith in Jesus. It is a free gift. If it takes being baptized to be saved, then you are doing something for it and it no longer becomes a gift, right? And being born of water and blood, I believe this means natural birth first [ doesn't the water break first in a natural birth]? It goes on to say that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit. You have to have a natural birth first[the water comes in here]. Any one stating that you have to be baptized to be saved makes Christs' work on the cross not complete.
I was baptized, after I accepted Jesus.

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
I have stated the very words of Jesus on this matter. Let me repeat them for all. Jesus said in Jn. 8:24, I said therfore unto ye shall die in your sins if ye believe not that I am he ye shall die in your sins.
Jesus said, In Luke 13:3,5, I tell ye nay but except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.
Jesus said, in Mat. 10:32,Whosoever therefore will confess me before men him will I also confess before my father which is in heaven.
Jesus said, in Mk. 16:16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall; be damned.
I cannot believe people actually object to the words of Christ in this matter. He is the redeemer and has the authority to set the conditions. ( Mat. 28:18-20).
Some of you do not like what Jesus said. However, let me remind you once again. It is the WORDS OF CHRIST that will judge you, not your feelings and opinions.( Jn. 12:48).
I have asked you at least twice Briguy Can a man be saved outside Christ, according to the scriptures? Can he be saved if he does not do as Christ has directed in those scriptures posted? If he can be saved without doing as the scriptures direct which one can he ignore? And How do you know? As always I am asking in accordance with the scriptures.
Frank

 

[Frank]

Clint:
I Have stated the very words of Christ on this matter. Who am I to do so? I am a Christian under the authority of Christ to proclaim his very words.( Mat. 28:18-20, Col. 3:17).
To those who object to the words of Jesus, I have asked the folowing:
1. According to the Bible can one be saved outside Christ?
2. If one does not have to be baptized, may he also ignore the other words of Christ in this matter? If not, why not? And Which command: belief,repentance, confession?
I have conducted myself in a scriptural and scholarly manner. If one disagrees,please use the same standard that I have used by which to do so... the Bible.
Frank

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by Frank:
Clint:
I Have stated the very words of Christ on this matter. Who am I to do so? I am a Christian under the authority of Christ to proclaim his very words.( Mat. 28:18-20, Col. 3:17).
To those who object to the words of Jesus, I have asked the folowing:
1. According to the Bible can one be saved outside Christ?

John 14

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

No, no man can be saved without Christ.

2. If one does not have to be baptized, may he also ignore the other words of Christ in this matter? If not, why not? And Which command: belief,repentance, confession?
I have conducted myself in a scriptural and scholarly manner. If one disagrees,please use the same standard that I have used by which to do so... the Bible.
Frank

John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

This is why we have no right to set rules upon who will or will not be saved.

Romans 2

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[ May 06, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Eladar]

John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

This is why we have no right to set rules upon who will or will not be saved.

We do not set the rules. Any claim about the requirements of salvation could be looked upon as a rule that we are making. But the point is, we are not the ones making it. If we are just pointing out what the Bible says, then it is God making the requirement that we are aware of because of the Bible.

This act, as will all acts mean absolutely nothing in itself. It is the heart of the person that is important. Faith perfected by works: James 2.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Frank, Sorry if I did not make something clear but I do not believe a person not in Christ is saved. The Bible is clear on that. In Christ we are a new creation. Where we differ is how and when one is in Christ. Must one repent - yes
must thet believe - yes must they receive - yes
(according to the Bible anyways, if God changes things then that his right. He certainly changed his mind with Nineva)
Is Baptism needed to be saved - No. Any verse you use to support this I can dispute with sound doctrine. You may not accept it, like you haven't yet, but I can provide it.
Finnally, by your definition of "saved", I'm not, so I am kind of surprized you haven't been more compassionate towards me since you think I'm lost.

Hey Nils, You said it is the heart that counts, now you sound like me and I like that

In Christ,
Brian

[ May 06, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

[Eladar]

Brian,

Don't stop there, read on and you will know what I meant.

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
You can dispute anything. However, as of yet,you have not refuted that baptism is for in order to the remission of sins. You have made unsubstantiated assertions.
I will make but one arguement at this time for water baptism being essential to the salvation of the sinner. In I Peter 3:21, the Bible says, " the like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer to a good conscience toward God by the resurection of Jesus Christ.
Furthermore, I would like to know what makes repentance, belief, and confession essential and not baptism. Jesus said they all were essential. It seems to me the one making the judgements about salvation is you. I have stated all Jesus said and teach men should do all. I have used the whole or all the counsel of God.(Acts 20: 27).

 

[Frank]

Clint:
Your posts have nothing to do with the necessity of baptism or the remission of sins. I have also affirmed that Christ is indeed our judge.(Jn.12:48). There is a difference in condemnation and righteous judgement. I have condemned no one.
Moreover, men are required to make judgements everyday. Jesus said, Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgement." (John 7:24).
The Bible demands men make judgements about truth. (II Cor. 13:5). Christianity is a proveable system of faith. ( IThes 5:21). It demands evidence for one's faith.(John 20:30,31, Hebrews 11:1). It requires a response to the belief of that evidence.( Hebrews 11:6).I have contended for that which is true to the words of the gospel of Christ, no more no less.
Frank

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
I responded to the original thread.I have posted the truth. Men either accept it or reject it. Jesus did not get everyone to obey the truth either.( Jn. 5:39).He was the master teacher. As for compassion, is teaching the lost and act of compassion?
Paul had something to say about the truth to the Galatians who did not like what he had to say. Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?(Gal. 4:16).
I have made every attempt to teach that which is commanded by Christ in this matter. I have not engaged in a condemning attitude toward you or those who call names.
I ask all men to obey the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation.( Romans 1:16).