church of Christ

[OldRegular]

Ask JMS17 a simple question:

"A question for any and all who are believers in the teachings of the so called church of Christ. Your teaching is that water Baptism is essential to salvation. Your teaching is that once saved a person can lose that salvation and presumably will go to hell if he dies in that state. However, if that person believes again and is supposedly saved again you do not require that person to undergo water baptism again even though you say it is essential to salvation. It appears that your teaching regarding the necessity of water baptism to be saved is illogical or screwed up."

which he refuses to answer and he comes up with 34 nonsensical syllogisms. Talk about obfuscation.

I knew that the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and perhaps the Anglicans and Lutherans believed in Baptismal Regeneration but it appears the COC does also. They could simplify things if they would baptize infants. Does the COC also believe in the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine of communion? Does the COC believe that participation in communion is essential to Salvation? Was the first pope of the COC Campbell?

 

[JSM17]

"A question for any and all who are believers in the teachings of the so called church of Christ. Your teaching is that water Baptism is essential to salvation. Your teaching is that once saved a person can lose that salvation and presumably will go to hell if he dies in that state. However, if that person believes again and is supposedly saved again you do not require that person to undergo water baptism again even though you say it is essential to salvation. It appears that your teaching regarding the necessity of water baptism to be saved is illogical or screwed up."

which he refuses to answer and he comes up with 34 nonsensical syllogisms. Talk about obfuscation.

I knew that the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and perhaps the Anglicans and Lutherans believed in Baptismal Regeneration but it appears the COC does also. They could simplify things if they would baptize infants. Does the COC also believe in the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine of communion? Does the COC believe that participation in communion is essential to Salvation? Was the first pope of the COC Campbell?

Tisk, Tisk, very snarky.

I already stated a while go in a post that I did not see scriptural evidence for being rebaptized after one falls from the faith. It appears from scripture that when one errors one must repent and pray.
Acts 8:22-23
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
NKJV
To be saved and this man was, we already have been told that he believed ans was baptized, yet Peter says that at this point he is BOUND BY INIQUITY. It shows me that this man who was saved, fell from the faith seking his own, not being bound to Christ, but to sin. Peter does not tell him to believe again or to have true faith because you did not before, he does not tell him to be rebaptized, he tells him to repent and pray.

 

[OldRegular]

Tisk, Tisk, very snarky.

I already stated a while go in a post that I did not see scriptural evidence for being rebaptized after one falls from the faith. It appears from scripture that when one errors one must repent and pray.
Acts 8:22-23
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
NKJV
To be saved and this man was, we already have been told that he believed ans was baptized, yet Peter says that at this point he is BOUND BY INIQUITY. It shows me that this man who was saved, fell from the faith seking his own, not being bound to Christ, but to sin. Peter does not tell him to believe again or to have true faith because you did not before, he does not tell him to be rebaptized, he tells him to repent and pray.

You still haven't answered the question I posed to you and MorganT repeated. The fact that you do not require rebaptism gives the lie to your doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

You don't really think that you are enlightening anyone by the above comments do you. Are you foolishly saying the man was saved and then lost. Your semantics are perfectly unclear.

Baptists, except Freewill Baptists and those that were seduced by Campbell when he departed from the faith, have always recognized that when we sin we must confess our sin in obedience to the teaching of Scripture.

1 John 1:8,9
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The above is likely beyond your understanding since it does not comport with your false doctrine of works salvation! You really need to change the name of your group since Jesus Christ taught: by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. [Ephesians 2:8,9] You deny that truth by every statement you make.

 

[Darron Steele]

...
Was the first pope of the COC Campbell?

Hold on here.

Alexander Campbell died in the 1860's. The Churches of Christ did not finalize their split from the Disciples of Christ/Christians until 1906.

Alexander Campbell was not the leader of the Churches of Christ. He was one of several leaders of the Restoration Movement.

Further, Alexander Campbell did not hold all of the views required to be fully acceptable in the Churches of Christ. In most Churches of Christ, the best he could expect would be a welcome to a seat.

 

[JSM17]

You still haven't answered the question I posed to you and MorganT repeated. The fact that you do not require rebaptism gives the lie to your doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

You don't really think that you are enlightening anyone by the above comments do you. Are you foolishly saying the man was saved and then lost. Your semantics are perfectly unclear.

Baptists, except Freewill Baptists and those that were seduced by Campbell when he departed from the faith, have always recognized that when we sin we must confess our sin in obedience to the teaching of Scripture.

1 John 1:8,9
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The above is likely beyond your understanding since it does not comport with your false doctrine of works salvation! You really need to change the name of your group since Jesus Christ taught: by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. [Ephesians 2:8,9] You deny that truth by every statement you make.

The question was answered, but since I did not answer it your way it is not satisfactory to you, but that's ok.

Your writtings in response to Acts 8 do not talk about Acts 8, now your not dealing with the passage that I used to explain the question you say that I never answered, instead you go to 1 John which has conditional written all over it. "IF, "IF" what "IF" we don't confess? Then you will just say they were never christians when we know that the letter was written to christians and that is who John is talking to.

Then you quote Ephesians 2:8, 9 again disregarding the context.

 

[JSM17]

Not of Works
Paul taught that initial salvation is "not of works." Does this concept eliminate any and all physical activity from connection with salvation? No. The supposition that Paul's "not of works" comments rule out all physical responses to the Gospel are not based on Scripture, but on the dualistic thinking of Greek philosophy that still colors Christian thinking to some extent.

Paul contrasted "works of righteousness," which he explicitly excluded from salvation, with other physical acts which he stated plainly are connected to our salvation. Therefore, there are clearly physical acts that do not fall into the category of "works" as Scripture defines them. Notice in the following passage Paul distinguished between baptism and "works."

Baptism is not a "work of righteousness," but is seen in contrast to "works" in the following passage. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration [literally, "the bath of second birth"] and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Titus 3:5-6 NKJ). The bath of second birth is baptism. It is contrasted with "works of righteousness."

The former is explicitly included in salvation, the latter is explicitly excluded. Yet, both are physical acts.

Another physical act was also included in initial salvation by Paul. "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Rom. 10:9-10 NKJ).
If, "not of works" means the exclusion of all physical action, then Paul has contradicted himself in both of these passages.

 

[OldRegular]

Post by OldRegular
You still haven't answered the question I posed to you and MorganT repeated. The fact that you do not require rebaptism gives the lie to your doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

You don't really think that you are enlightening anyone by the above comments do you. Are you foolishly saying the man was saved and then lost. Your semantics are perfectly unclear.

Baptists, except Freewill Baptists and those that were seduced by Campbell when he departed from the faith, have always recognized that when we sin we must confess our sin in obedience to the teaching of Scripture.

1 John 1:8,9
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The above is likely beyond your understanding since it does not comport with your false doctrine of works salvation! You really need to change the name of your group since Jesus Christ taught: by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. [Ephesians 2:8,9] You deny that truth by every statement you make.

Response by JSM17
The question was answered, but since I did not answer it your way it is not satisfactory to you, but that's ok.

Your writtings in response to Acts 8 do not talk about Acts 8, now your not dealing with the passage that I used to explain the question you say that I never answered, instead you go to 1 John which has conditional written all over it. "IF, "IF" what "IF" we don't confess? Then you will just say they were never christians when we know that the letter was written to christians and that is who John is talking to.

Then you quote Ephesians 2:8, 9 again disregarding the context.

You have not proven anything , especially your use of the passage from Acts. You accuse me of taking Ephesians 2:1-8 out of context, which is completely false, then you omit the most significant verses from the account in Acts 8:

Acts 8:13, 18-21
13. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
18. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Simon's heart was not right with God. That obviously means that he was not saved. You will have to do better than that to establish why the COC doctrine of salvation is inconsistent. But then a false doctrine is by nature inconsistent.

At least you understand one thing, that the Apostle John was writing to Christians. When a person is saved by the Grace of God alone all sins; past, present, and future are forgiven. When we do sin our fellowship with God is marred but not broken.. That fellowship is restored when we repent and ask for forgiveness just as John stated.

 

[OldRegular]

Not of Works
Paul taught that initial salvation is "not of works."

Baptism is not a "work of righteousness," but is seen in contrast to "works" in the following passage. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration [literally, "the bath of second birth"] and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Titus 3:5-6 NKJ). The bath of second birth is baptism. It is contrasted with "works of righteousness."

What do you mean initial salvation? Salvation occurs only one time. Furthermore, to call the washing of regeneration water baptism is asinine!

I said it earlier and I will repeat it:

THE CONCEPT, OR DOCTRINE FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IT, THAT ANY EXTERNAL ACT SUCH AS WATER BAPTISM IS REQUIRED FOR SALVATION REDUCES THE CHRISTIAN FAITH TO THE LEVEL OF PAGANISM.

JSM17
How do you go to sleep at night given the possibility that there is some unconfessed sin in your life? If you die during the night where is your destiny given COC doctrine?

At least the Roman Catholics invented purgatory where you can reside until the priest gets you out. Beats the COC in my opinion.

 

[TCGreek]

Syllogism Number One:
1. All Spiritual Blessings are in Christ. (Ephesians 1:3)
2. But one is baptized into Christ. (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27)
3. Therefore, one must be baptized to get to spiritual blessings.
Syllogism Number Two:
1. Redemption is in Christ. (Ephesians 1:7)
2. But one is baptized into Christ. (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27)
3. Therefore, one must be baptized to be redeemed.
Syllogism Number Three:1. Forgiveness of sins is in Christ (Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14)
2. But one must be baptized to get into Christ. (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27)
3. Therefore, one must be baptized to get forgiveness of sins.
Syllogism Number Four:
1. Inheritance is in Christ (Ephesians 1:11)
2. But one must be baptized to get into Christ (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27)
3. Therefore, one must be baptized to get to the inheritance.
Syllogism Number Five:
1. One is reconciled to God in Christ (Romans 2:16; Colossians 1:20)
2. But baptism puts one into Christ (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27)
3. Therefore, one must be baptized to be reconciled to God.
Syllogism Number Six:
1. One is a new creature when in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
2. But one must be baptized to get into Christ. (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27)
3. Therefore, one must be baptized to be a new creature in Christ Jesus.
Syllogism Number Seven:1. Christ's blood was shed in his death. (John 19:33-34)
2. But we are baptized into Christ's death. (Romans 6:3-5)
3. Therefore, we are baptized to get to Christ's blood.
Syllogism Number Eight:
1. Only Christ's blood can cleanse our sins. (1 John 1:7)
2. But we must be baptized to get to the blood. (John 19:33-34; Romans 6:3-5)
3. Therefore, we must be baptized to get to the blood to be cleansed from sins.
Syllogism Number Nine:
1. Salvation is in Christ (2 Timothy 2:10)
2. But we must be baptized to get into Christ. (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27)
3. Therefore, we must be baptized to get into Salvation.
Syllogism Number Ten:1. Salvation is in the name. (Acts 4:11-12)
2. But we are baptized into the Name. (Matthew 28:19)
3. Therefore, baptism is essential to salvation.
Syllogism Number Eleven:
1. Salvation is in the body, or church. (Ephesians 5:23)
2. But we are baptized into the body. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
3. Therefore, baptism is essential to salvation.
Syllogism Number Twelve:
1. We are saved by Grace (Ephesians 2:8).
2. But Grace is in Christ (2 Timothy 2:1).
3. We are Baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27).
4. Therefore, baptism is essential to grace, which saves.
Syllogism Number Thirteen:
1. Those who work righteousness are acceptable to God (Acts 10:34-35).
2. But God's commandments are righteousness (Psalms 119:172).
3. Therefore, one must obey God's commands to be accepted of Him.
Syllogism Number Fourteen:1. One must obey God's commands to be acceptable to Him.
2. Baptism is a command of God. (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:48; Acts 22:16).
3. Therefore, one must be baptized to be acceptable to God.
Syllogism Number Fifteen:1. Faith without works is dead (James 2:14-24).
2. Baptism is a work of righteousness (Obedience to God's righteousness command).
3. Therefore, faith without baptism, a work of righteousness, is dead.
Syllogism Number Sixteen:1. Baptism is a command (Acts 10:48).
2. One must do the commandments to enter into the city (Revelation 22:14).
3. Therefore, baptism is essential to entering into the city.
Syllogism Number Seventeen:1. One must do the will of God to enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21).
2. It is God's will that we hear (obey) Christ.
3. Christ commanded baptism (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16).
4. Therefore, one must be baptized to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Syllogism Number Eighteen:1. Christ saves them that obey Him (Hebrews 5:8-9).
2. Christ commands baptism (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16).
3. Therefore, one must be baptized to be saved.
Syllogism Number Nineteen:
1. Paul was baptized to wash away his sins (Acts 22:16).
2. He said for us to follow him (2 Thessalonians 3:7-9).
3. Therefore, we must be baptized to wash away our sins.
Syllogism Number Twenty:1. Paul said we were baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27).
2. He said if any preached any other gospel to let him be accursed (Galatians 1:6-9).
3. Therefore, he is accursed who say we are not baptized into Christ.
Syllogism Number Twenty-One:1. Blood of Christ is point of union between sinner and Christ (Revelation 1:5; Ephesians 1:9; 2:13; Romans 3:25; 5:19).
2. Christ shed his blood in his death (Romans 4:8, 9; Ephesians 2:13).
3. But we are baptized into his death (Romans 6:3).
4. Therefore, we are united with Christ in baptism.
Syllogism Number Twenty-Two:1. We are planted together ("united with him"--A.S.V.) in the likeness of his death (Romans 6:5)
2. But the likeness of his death is in our baptism (Romans 6:4).
3. Therefore, we are united with him in baptism.
Syllogism Number Twenty-Three:1. We are sinners without Christ's death (Romans 5:8).
2. But we are baptized into his death (Romans 6:3).
3. Therefore, we are sinners without being baptized.
Syllogism Number Twenty-Four:
1. If without Christ, have no hope and without God (Ephesians 2:12).
2. But we are baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3).
3. Therefore, we have no hope and are without God if not baptized into Christ.
Syllogism Number Twenty-Five:1. All spiritual blessings are in Christ (Ephesians 1:3) -- None outside Christ..
2. But we are baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3).
3. Therefore, baptism into Christ is necessary to have all spiritual blessings, or
4. There are no spiritual blessings without baptism into Christ.
Syllogism Number Twenty-Six:
1. Made free from sin by obeying form of doctrine (Romans 6:17, 18).
2. The doctrine delivered was D.B.R. [the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ, hss] (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
3. But the "form" of that doctrine was baptism (Romans 6:3-5).
4. Therefore, baptism is necessary to freedom from sin.
Syllogism Number Twenty-Seven:1. Reconciled--"made nigh"--by the blood (Ephesians 2:13).
2. Reconciled in one body--The Church (Ephesians 2:16).
3. But we are baptized into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13).
4. Therefore, baptism is necessary to reconciliation by the blood.
Syllogism Number Twenty-Eight
1. Justified by Christ's blood (Romans 5:9)
2. Reconciled by Christ's death on cross where blood was shed (Ephesians 2:16)
3. But we are baptized into his death (Romans 6:3)
4. Therefore, we are justified by his blood in baptism.
Syllogism Number Twenty-Nine:1. Justified by the blood (Romans 5:9)
2. Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6.8)
3. But the ungodly are baptized into the death of Christ (Romans 6:1-3)
4. Therefore, the ungodly are justified by the blood of Christ in baptism.
Syllogism Number Thirty:1. Circumcision of the heart is to put off the body of sins of the flesh (Romans 2:29; Colossians 2:11).
2. But this circumcision of the heart takes place in baptism (Colossians 2:12).
3. Therefore, the body of the sins of the flesh is put off in baptism.
Syllogism Number Thirty-one:1. We are forgiven when raised with him (Colossians 2:12, 13).
2. But we are raised with him in baptism (Colossians 2:12).
3. Therefore, we are forgiven all trespasses in baptism.
Syllogism Number Thirty-two:1. Circumcision of the heart is an operation of God (Romans 2:29; Colossians 2:12).
2. But this operation of God takes place when we are buried and raised with Christ in baptism (Colossians 2:12).
3. Therefore, circumcision of the heart takes place in baptism, but
4. Circumcision of the heart removes sin (Colossians 2:11).
5. Therefore, sins are removed in baptism.
Syllogism Number Thirty-three:
1. There is no removal of sin without faith in the operation of God (Colossians 2:12).
2. But the operation of God takes places in baptism (Colossians 2:12).
3. Therefore, there is no removal of sin without baptism.
Syllogism Number Thirty-four:1. We are "quickened together with him"--made alive with him--when raised with him (Colossians 2:12, 13).
2. But we are raised with him in baptism (Colossians 2:12).
3. Therefore, we are quickened together with him--made alive with him--in baptism.

Anyone can prove anything when syllogisms become the standard of interpreting Scripture.

I guess faith alone, in Christ alone, because of Christ alone, is too simple.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: I guess faith alone, in Christ alone, because of Christ alone, is too simple.

HP: Now if one views faith as a gift from God, (which even I do in a sense) one might conclude from your statement that it being all of God and none of man that double predestination is in fact true as well as the sentiments expressed in TULIP. Are those your positions? If not how do you distance yourself from the logical ends of your comments above that would suggest such fatalistic ends?

 

[DHK]

HP: Now if one views faith as a gift from God, (which even I do in a sense) one might conclude from your statement that it being all of God and none of man that double predestination is in fact true as well as the sentiments expressed in TULIP. Are those your positions? If not how do you distance yourself from the logical ends of your comments above that would suggest such fatalistic ends?

I don't believe faith is a gift from God, nor can it be until after one is saved. Faith is not this nebulous intangible feely emotional thing that is somewhat indescribable but living inside you. Is that how you describe faith? That might be a good description for a Charismatic. But that is not what faith is.

Simply put, faith is confidence in the word of another. I have faith (confidence) that when I put my key into the ignition of my car and turn it, that my car will start. Why? I trust the word (manual) of the Ford Company that they will do what they have promised. Some day my car will not start. Does that mean my faith has failed. No. It means man is fallible and makes fallible things that break down.

But God is infallible. His Word is infallible. I can put my faith and confidence in the promises in an infallible God who never breaks his promises.
However, that faith is MY faith. Just like I have faith in my car working for me, I have faith that Christ will save me (if I am unsaved). People exercise their faith everyday. It is their faith, not God's faith. The Bible says that we are saved by faith, not God's faith. He isn't going to force you to be saved. You must put your faith into Christ to be saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I don't believe faith is a gift from God, nor can it be until after one is saved.

HP: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So would it be accurate for me to say that according to you grace is a gift of God but faith is not? If faith is not a gift from God it must be of ourselves, right? Can we safely conclude that this passage simply states that it is grace, not faith, that is not of ourselves?

 

[DHK]

HP: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So would it be accurate for me to say that according to you grace is a gift of God but faith is not? If faith is not a gift from God it must be of ourselves, right? Can we safely conclude that this passage simply states that it is grace, not faith, that is not of ourselves?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The subject is salvation, not faith. "through faith" is a prepositional phrase; just like "by grace" is a prepositional phrase. Salvation is the "gift of God".
Nowhere here does it say that either grace or faith are a gift from God. That is not what the verse is saying.
It is stating that Salvation is a free gift of God; that salvation is not of works; It is through or by faith.

 

[OldRegular]

I don't believe faith is a gift from God, nor can it be until after one is saved.

Saving faith is the gift of God and it is imparted to man after he has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. [ Ephesians 2:1-8]

Simply put, faith is confidence in the word of another. I have faith (confidence) that when I put my key into the ignition of my car and turn it, that my car will start. Why? I trust the word (manual) of the Ford Company that they will do what they have promised. Some day my car will not start. Does that mean my faith has failed. No. It means man is fallible and makes fallible things that break down.
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It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows:

“You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?” [Paraphrase from God the Holy Spirit by Martyn LLoyd-Jones, page 140]

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: It is through or by faith.

HP: Who determines ones faith? The will of man?

 

[DHK]

It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows:

“You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?” [Paraphrase from God the Holy Spirit by Martyn LLoyd-Jones, page 140]

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless.

You are entitled to your opinion, but to put it bluntly: you are wrong.
I would much rather trust Martyn Lloyd Jones theology than yours (glad you referred to him).
And to say that a person must be regenerated before he his given "saving faith" is totally unscriptural.

 

[DHK]

HP: Who determines ones faith? The will of man?

If my child determines to trust me over a stranger who determined it? Close to birth it was his will. The older he got, the more he developed a relationship with his parents, the more he trusted (had faith) in his parents. Faith is trust.

Another adult, a stranger to me, must put their trust in me on one of two basis:
1. By blind faith--he doesn't know anything about me.
2. By rational faith--he decides to put his faith in me because first he has done his homework and found out that it is reasonable to do so.

In Islam, a Muslim will blindly put their faith in Allah with no promise of eternal life or forgiveness of sins. No matter what you study in the Koran their is no possible way to have forgiveness sins, and no basis for Allah to justly forgive sins.
It is a blind belief; a blind faith that at the end of life Allah will accept them into heaven. The cannot know for sure.

In Christianity, it is not blind belief. It is confidence. It is not blind, as in going out to an airport and blindly pointing to an aircraft and hoping that that is the one taking you to your destination.
No, I have done my research, my homework. Christ died for my sins. He paid the penalty that I could never pay. He conquered sin, death and hell by rising from the dead. His resurrection proves that He is deity and that He has the power to forgive sins, as God alone can forgive sins.

Thus I will put my faith in the one who has power to forgive sins; has demonstrated that He has power to forgive sins; and has demonstrated that he has paid the price for my sins.
My faith (confidence) in his promise to forgive my sins is not a blind faith. It is based of facts, on reasons, on the words of God Himself.

 

[OldRegular]

Revised Post by OldRegular
It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows:

“You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?”

"In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless." [Paraphrase from God the Holy Spirit by Martyn LLoyd-Jones, page 140]

Response by DHK
You are entitled to your opinion, but to put it bluntly: you are wrong.
I would much rather trust Martyn Lloyd Jones theology than yours (glad you referred to him).

I placed the reference at the wrong place. It was Martyn Lloyd-Jones who presented the complete [bolded] thought, though I did paraphrase it to save time.

Response by DHK
And to say that a person must be regenerated before he his given "saving faith" is totally unscriptural.

I am pleased that you think so highly of Martyn Lloyd-Jones since on page 142 of the same book he states [direct quote]:"In other words the seed of faith is placed in us in regeneration and will be called into activity by the effectual call.":laugh: :laugh: :laugh: If you carefully read Ephesians 2:1-8 you might arrive at the same conclusion assuming you yield to the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

 

[DHK]

I am pleased that you think so highly of Martyn Lloyd-Jones since on page 142 of the same book he states [direct quote]:"In other words the seed of faith is placed in us in regeneration and will be called into activity by the effectual call.":laugh: :laugh: :laugh: If you carefully read Ephesians 2:1-8 you might arrive at the same conclusion assuming you yield to the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't matter to me who said it; who believes it. I will say it again:

And to say that a person must be regenerated before he is given "saving faith" is totally unscriptural.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: My faith (confidence) in his promise to forgive my sins is not a blind faith. It is based of facts, on reasons, on the words of God Himself.

HP: The question does not surround what faith is based on, but rather who or what determines ones faith. Does the will of man determine ones faith or is our faith all of God?