church of Christ

[DHK]

HP: The question does not surround what faith is based on, but rather who or what determines ones faith. Does the will of man determine ones faith or is our faith all of God?

An unsaved man can have faith in a bus driver to get him to the airport.
An unsaved man can have faith in God to get him to heaven.
The source of the faith comes from the same place.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: An unsaved man can have faith in a bus driver to get him to the airport.
An unsaved man can have faith in God to get him to heaven.
The source of the faith comes from the same place.

HP: It can certainly be said in a sense that all faith has it’s source in God. What I am asking about is who is the ‘first cause’ of ones faith? Is it all of God, all of man, or do both have a role to play in faith without which saving faith will not be accomplished?

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Now if one views faith as a gift from God, (which even I do in a sense) one might conclude from your statement that it being all of God and none of man that double predestination is in fact true as well as the sentiments expressed in TULIP. Are those your positions? If not how do you distance yourself from the logical ends of your comments above that would suggest such fatalistic ends?

HP, I really don't see the connection.

Faith alone, in Christ alone, because of grace alone, is simply the salvation experience.

This has nothing to do with fatalism.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I am pleased that you think so highly of Martyn Lloyd-Jones since on page 142 of the same book he states [direct quote]:"In other words the seed of faith is placed in us in regeneration and will be called into activity by the effectual call." If you carefully read Ephesians 2:1-8 you might arrive at the same conclusion assuming you yield to the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

Response Posted by Moderator DHK
It doesn't matter to me who said it; who believes it. I will say it again:

And to say that a person must be regenerated before he is given "saving faith" is totally unscriptural.

Thank God you are just as entitled to be wrong as Martyn Lloyd-Jones and I are to be correct!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: HP, I really don't see the connection.

Faith alone, in Christ alone, because of grace alone, is simply the salvation experience.

This has nothing to do with fatalism.

HP: Let me ask you, who is the ‘first cause’ of the faith alone you speak of? Is God the first cause of ones faith? Is it God alone that determines who will and who will not receive saving faith?

 

[OldRegular]

The unsaved man can do nothing unless the Apostle Paul, and through him God, is misleading us.

1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[DHK]

Thank God you are just as entitled to be wrong as Martyn Lloyd-Jones and I are to be correct!

In your view God must force one to be saved. That is not what I read in the Bible.
God does not force anyone to be saved.
John 3:16 is still in the Scriptures, and it does have meaning.

 

[DHK]

The unsaved man can do nothing unless the Apostle Paul, and through him God, is misleading us.

1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This has to do with an understanding of Scripture. Compare to verse 12.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Let me ask you, who is the ‘first cause’ of the faith alone you speak of? Is God the first cause of ones faith? Is it God alone that determines who will and who will not receive saving faith?

HP, now you're really wanting to get to the core of my doctrine of salvation: the first cause of a person's faith is God himself.

I'm not a Pelagian by any means.

However a person understands grace in salvation, God must be the first cause.

I don't see how man can generate saving faith on his own.

The assumptions are too great to overcome.

 

[Amy.G]

God is the first cause of my brain, because He created me to have one. But He expects me to use it. God creates everyone with the ability to exercise faith, but we are required to use it in order to be saved. This is how God created us. So yes, He is the first cause, but I am responsible for using what He gave me. I can put my faith in many things. I can put my faith in Allah, Buddha, money, power, myself....but the only way I can be saved is to put my faith in Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: HP, now you're really wanting to get to the core of my doctrine of salvation: the first cause of a person's faith is God himself.

HP: Would it be proper to assume that you then believe that God determines your faith? If God is the first cause of your faith can it be said as well that God causes saving faith?

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Would it be proper to assume that you then believe that God determines your faith? If God is the first cause of your faith can it be said as well that God causes saving faith?

According to Eph 2:4-9 and Titus 2:11 and 3:4-5, apart from God's grace no one is able to exercise saving faith.

Do you know of another way of exercising saving faith?

 

[TCGreek]

God is the first cause of my brain, because He created me to have one. But He expects me to use it. God creates everyone with the ability to exercise faith, but we are required to use it in order to be saved. This is how God created us. So yes, He is the first cause, but I am responsible for using what He gave me. I can put my faith in many things. I can put my faith in Allah, Buddha, money, power, myself....but the only way I can be saved is to put my faith in Christ.

No argument here.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: According to Eph 2:4-9 and Titus 2:11 and 3:4-5, apart from God's grace no one is able to exercise saving faith.

Do you know of another way of exercising saving faith?

HP: Certainly God’s grace allows for one to be saved by faith, and no one would exercise saving faith apart from the influences of God, but are the influences of God in the case of saving faith passive or coercive in nature? Is man able to resist this grace that allows for faith?

By the way, do have a verse in mind that says we are saved by faith alone?

 

[Amy.G]

The "saving" part of saving faith is the object of our faith. Faith in anything or anyone apart from Christ is called "believing in vain".

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Certainly God’s grace allows for one to be saved by faith, and no one would exercise saving faith apart from the influences of God, but are the influences of God in the case of saving faith passive or coercive in nature?

By the way, do have a verse in mind that says we are saved by faith alone?

God's grace must be viewed as active. What by the way is passive grace?

once faith is mentioned as the condition, What else do we need? (Eph 2:8)

 

[TCGreek]

The "saving" part of saving faith is the object of our faith. Faith in anything or anyone apart from Christ is called "believing in vain".

From my neck of the wood, the object of faith is called Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

 

[Amy.G]

From my neck of the wood, the object of faith is called Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

That's the one! :jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: God's grace must be viewed as active. What by the way is passive grace?

HP: Passive grace could possibly be thought of much like voltage is. It represents capacity for current but not current itself. It could be viewed as water available in a water tower yet in reality not effective in quenching ones thirst until one voluntarily forms an intent to turn on the faucet and drink the water. Gods grace provides the remedy for the sins of the entire world, yet no actual sins will be in actuality and specifically atoned for until the conditions for forgiveness are met, i.e., repentance and faith. God’s grace does not force salvation or determine individual salvation in and of itself, but rather must be mixed with the voluntary opening of ones heart door to its merits and stated conditions if it is to be effective in ones life. “Behold I stand at the door and knock.”

Now, is God’s grace passive upon the heart of man, serving as an influence to salvation, or does God determine the outcome apart from any efforts whatsoever of man? Is man passive or active in the determining the effect grace will have upon the individuals life?

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Passive grace could possibly be thought of much like voltage is. It represents capacity for current but not current itself. It could be viewed as water available in a water tower yet in reality not effective in quenching ones thirst until one voluntarily forms an intent to turn on the faucet and drink the water. Gods grace provides the remedy for the sins of the entire world, yet no actual sins will be in actuality and specifically atoned for until the conditions for forgiveness are met, i.e., repentance and faith. God’s grace does not force salvation or determine individual salvation in and of itself, but rather must be mixed with the voluntary opening of ones heart door to its merits and stated conditions if it is to be effective in ones life. “Behold I stand at the door and knock.”

I suppose that's a good analogy for that understanding of things.

Now, is God’s grace passive upon the heart of man, serving as an influence to salvation, or does God determine the outcome apart from any efforts whatsoever of man? Is man passive or active in the determining the effect grace will have upon the individuals life?

The very question "is God's grace passive upon the man of man, serving as an influence to salvation...?" is a mischaracterization.

"Upon" connotes that which is active.

God requires man to exercise saving faith.