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Amy: The "saving" part of saving faith is the object of our faith. Faith in anything or anyone apart from Christ is called "believing in vain".

HP: But neither will any be saved until they voluntarily fulfill the conditions of salvation, i.e., repentance and belief. Faith must be mixed with active obedience to be saving faith. Faith apart from active obedience is dead being alone. Dead faith will save no one.
 
TCG: The very question "is God's grace passive upon the man of man, serving as an influence to salvation...?" is a mischaracterization.

"Upon" connotes that which is active.

God requires man to exercise saving faith.

HP: Does God’s grace, in and of itself, determine the outcome?
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: But neither will any be saved until they voluntarily fulfill the conditions of salvation, i.e., repentance and belief. Faith must be mixed with active obedience to be saving faith. Faith apart from active obedience is dead being alone. Dead faith will save no one.

This is not true. What you have just created is a religion that is far different from Biblical Christianity. It is like any other religion of the world--a religion of works.
Christianity is faith in the work of Christ, not in works; but in Christ alone. It is unconditional. It is a gift of God. Gifts have no conditions. Study again Eph.2:8,9. Salvation is by grace through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works.

For you to say that it must be mixed with "active obedience" is totally unscriptural. It makes Christianity no different than Islam, Hinduism or any other religion of the world--a religion of works.
Salvation is by faith, and by faith alone.

 
DHK: by faith alone
HP: You have not shown one verse that establishes that point. Here is a clear one that refutes such a position soundly. Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: You have not shown one verse that establishes that point. Here is a clear one that refutes such a position soundly. Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Time and time again you come to the book of James with your proof texts even after it has been shown to you that you are simply taking these verses out of context. They do not speak of salvation, and therefore their usage is moot.

"I am purchasing my car using cash."
Is that statement clear enough? Do you understand it? Does it need more clarification. Or must I say to you:

"I am purchasing my car using cash alone"
Why are you demanding of God, something that God did not see fit to put into Scripture when Scripture is clear enough without it. For example:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

But for you: Must God insert "alone"?
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith (alone), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 
DHK: But for you: Must God insert "alone"?

HP: Not for me. I am satisfied with Scripture as it reads. You are the one that chooses to insert words that are not found nor implied in Scripture.

Salvation is accredited to many things. Gods grace, His mercy, faith, repentance, the preacher, being a doer of the Word, hearing, etc. Many factors go into play in salvation besides faith. Never does it state faith alone saves us. I neither add not subtract from the Word of God. I try my best to harmonize all passages that relate to salvation, not simply pick a favorite proof text that in actual reality does not make the claim that you try to get it to make.

Maybe with the help of some like minded translators, who might just happen to believe as yourself, you can someday have it say what you seem to know the Spirit is saying, i.e., faith and faith ‘alone.’ ....or does the Spirit say that to you? Is that simply an opinion of yours is is that God's Word to man as testified to our hearts and minds via the Spirit of God?
 

Amy.G

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: But neither will any be saved until they voluntarily fulfill the conditions of salvation, i.e., repentance and belief. Faith must be mixed with active obedience to be saving faith. Faith apart from active obedience is dead being alone. Dead faith will save no one.
I see no difference between faith and belief. "He who does not believe is condemned".

What is "active obedience"? No one is able to be obedient until they have received the Holy Spirit. The only obedience required for salvation is obedience to the gospel, or in other words, saying yes to the call of God.
 
Amy: I see no difference between faith and belief. "He who does not believe is condemned".

HP: Belief may be thought of as mere head knowledge. Faith involves a committal of the will in agreement to the Spirit of God and truth.
Amy: What is "active obedience"? No one is able to be obedient until they have received the Holy Spirit.

HP: No man is devoid of the influences of the Holy Spirit if they are morally accountable for their actions. The Holy Spirit reveals truth to the heart of man via the conscience of man if nothing else. Yes, man is able but wholly unwilling to be obedient to God’s commands. The Holy Spirit is a passive influence, whose influences can be rejected by man. Man is required to align his intents with the influences of the Holy Spirit. Sinful man does thios when he comes to sincere repentance. It is well within his abilities granted to him by God.

Amy: The only obedience required for salvation is obedience to the gospel, or in other words, saying yes to the call of God.

HP: Not so according to Scripture. God calls on man first to repent.
 

TCGreek

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: Does God’s grace, in and of itself, determine the outcome?

Apart from God's saving, active grace, none will be saved (Eph 2:8; Titus 2:11).

Scripture couldn't be clearer on the issue.

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot improve upon what Scripture says.
 

Amy.G

New Member
HP, it is a shame that you want to make salvation so complicated and works oriented.

To "believe" in Christ is no different that having "faith" in Christ. To believe in Him, you must believe He is who He says He is, He did what He said He did, and believe the words He spoke. That is faith. You are splitting hairs.

The very word "grace" means unmerited favor. If there's any work you can do to be saved, then it is not grace. It is so simple a child can understand.

Lu 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
 
TCG: Apart from God's saving, active grace, none will be saved (Eph 2:8; Titus 2:11).

Scripture couldn't be clearer on the issue.

HP: That is not the point TCG. I could not agree with you or the scriptures more on that point. No one is asking you to improve or deny that point of Scripture. I asked a completely different question. If you do not desire to answer it, that is your choice. I asked you , “Does God’s grace, in and of itself, determine the outcome?”


I hope you will try once again to answer the question directly. Can we reason together?
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I try my best to harmonize all passages that relate to salvation, not simply pick a favorite proof text that in actual reality does not make the claim that you try to get it to make.

Brother, I have challenged you many times to harmonize scripture and you would simply disappear when backed against the wall. Please!

Just recently, how many times have you called "shipwrecked" a total loss of salvation?

:jesus:
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by OldRegular
Thank God you are just as entitled to be wrong as Martyn Lloyd-Jones and I are to be correct!
Response Posted by Moderator DHK
In your view God must force one to be saved. That is not what I read in the Bible.
God does not force anyone to be saved.
John 3:16 is still in the Scriptures, and it does have meaning.

You misunderstand the nature of regeneration, the rebirth, the resurrection of the spiritually dead, or being born again.

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation, given the gift of faith, and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.

Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, came to Jesus Christ by night to question Him.

John 3:3, KJV
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Various forms of expression are employed in the Scriptures, to denote the change that occurs at the new birth or regeneration:

It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh, a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:26, KJV
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

It is putting the law in the heart.

Hebrews 8:10, KJV
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It is quickening or making alive.

John 6:63, KJV
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

John 5:21, KJV
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

It is a resurrection from the spiritual death.

John 5:25, KJV
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John Dagg in his Manual of Theology, pages 277ff, states it much better than I can though I realize I will be criticized for quoting someone.

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: That is not the point TCG. I could not agree with you or the scriptures more on that point. No one is asking you to improve or deny that point of Scripture. I asked a completely different question. If you do not desire to answer it, that is your choice. I asked you , “Does God’s grace, in and of itself, determine the outcome?”


I hope you will try once again to answer the question directly. Can we reason together?

I assume your question regards salvation. If so, I will answer your question. In Salvation the Grace of God in and of itself will determine the outcome. That is what Scripture states and to claim otherwise is to deny Scripture. But then some on this forum make a habit of doing that.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Darron Steele said:
Hold on here.

Alexander Campbell died in the 1860's. The Churches of Christ did not finalize their split from the Disciples of Christ/Christians until 1906.

Alexander Campbell was not the leader of the Churches of Christ. He was one of several leaders of the Restoration Movement.

Further, Alexander Campbell did not hold all of the views required to be fully acceptable in the Churches of Christ. In most Churches of Christ, the best he could expect would be a welcome to a seat.

The following essay disputes what you say:

The Religious Affiliation of
Alexander Campbell
Co-Founder of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement within American Protestantism

Alexander Campbell's family background was Presbyterian (they were from Scotland), but he and his father became Baptists in 1812. Campbell became a popular Baptist preacher and editor of a widely circulated paper, The Christian Baptist. Rejecting a variety of elements in the Baptist churches of his time, Campbell later formed the Churches of Christ denomination. Campbell rejected infant baptism and confessions of faith, especially the Philadelphia Confession of Faith (1742). Campbell's maxim was "Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent."

From: Timothy George, "Southern Baptist Ghosts" in First Things No. 93 (May 1999): pages 17-24 (http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9905/george.html; viewed August 1999). [This essay is adapted from a lecture presented to the St. George Tucker Society at Emory University. The author is Dean of Beeson Divinity School, Samford University, and Senior Editor at Christianity Today]:

R. B. C. Howell (1801-1868) was one of the founders of the SBC [Southern Baptist Convention] in 1845. He served four terms as president of the Convention and was also pastor of the First Baptist Church of Nashville. Near the end of his ministry, he reviewed the history of Baptists in Tennessee and described the devastation wrought by these three movements:

Now for the third time within forty years, the desolation of Baptist churches in Tennessee was complete. They were first rent, overthrown, and destroyed by the violence of the controversy on the doctrine of predestination; they were secondly crushed and scattered by the "Reformation" of Mr. [Alexander] Campbell; they were thirdly severed and prostrated by the Landmark controversy. Scarcely had they begun to recover from one calamitous division when they fell into another. Will the Baptists of Tennessee ever be united, and labor together continuously in the cause of Christ?

The movements Howell mentioned were all led by powerful personalities, but they also dealt with basic issues of Baptist identity and Christian faith: namely, the balance of Scripture and tradition as norms of belief and practice (Campbellism); the nature of the true church and its identity markers (Landmarkism); and the reality of divine grace in the plan of salvation (hyper-Calvinism)...

Alexander Campbell was born in Ireland, educated in Scotland, and emigrated to Pennsylvania with his father, Thomas Campbell, where both were immersed as believers and affiliated with the Baptist denomination in 1812. The Campbells were Scotch-Irish Presbyterians by background, but after Alexander's wife, Dorothy, gave birth to their first child, they rejected infant baptism. Campbell was a popular speaker at Baptist gatherings and disseminated his ideas through a widely circulated paper he edited called the Christian Baptist.

The Campbell movement (the word "Campbellite" was a nickname coined in 1832) began as an effort to counteract the disunity of Christendom. Campbell's reforming movement was part of the larger restorationist impulse in American Protestantism. Campbell wanted to bring visible unity among all Christians and hence "restore" the true church by returning to the New Testament, which, he believed, contained a precise blueprint for church order and belief. Building on the earlier restorationist call of Barton W. Stone, Campbell led many erstwhile Baptists to leave their congregations and affiliate with his newly formed Churches of Christ.

The results of this schism are with us still; it is not uncommon to find Baptist and "Christian" [i.e., Stone-Campbellite] churches still facing one another across town squares and village lanes throughout Tennessee and Kentucky... Why did Campbell leave the Baptists after seventeen years of ministry among them? For one thing, Campbell's stark biblical literalism led to disagreements over many aspects of church life and ministerial order. Campbell opposed, for instance, the use of instrumental music in worship and refused to call ministers by officious-sounding titles such as "Reverend" or "Doctor."

Campbell also had serious soteriological differences with the Baptists. He taught a doctrine that sounded very much like baptismal regeneration, denying the direct agency of the Holy Spirit in conversion. Indeed, Campbell would often poke fun at Baptists who talked about "getting religion" or being convicted of sin and drawn to Christ by the work of the Spirit. For Baptist awakeners in the tradition of Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and the Wesleys, this smacked of heresy or even blasphemy, ruling out what the Baptists called "an immediate work of God's grace in the heart."

A still more serious breach between Campbell and his Baptist cohorts stemmed from his outright rejection of confessions of faith. Campbell viewed religious authority according to a simple maxim: "Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent."

...By the nineteenth century, Baptists had produced many... confessions, but the one against which Campbell directed most of his ire was the Philadelphia Confession of Faith, a document printed for the Philadelphia Baptist Association by Benjamin Franklin in 1742. By the 1830s it exerted a magisterial influence among Baptists North and South. At the founding meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention in 1845, each of the 293 "delegates," as they were then called, who gathered in Augusta, Georgia, belonged to churches that embraced this confessional standard.

Although he was the most important opponent of confessions of faith, Campbell was not the first Baptist to oppose their use...

By the time of Campbell's death in 1866, Baptists and the Restorationists had already gone their separate ways. Yet the lingering influence of Campbell's legacy would continue to haunt Southern Baptists...

Baptists of the nineteenth century also rejected Campbell's strong anti-confessionalism. In the early part of the twentieth century, however, the ideal of American individualism was wedded to the Baptist concept of "soul competency" resulting in the triumph of what Ralph Waldo Emerson called "the infinitude of the private mind." Many contemporary Baptists would be surprised to learn that venerable shapers of the Baptist tradition such as Andrew Fuller, Richard Furman, B. H. Carroll, and even E. Y. Mullins often spoke in an affirming way of "the Baptist creed."

...It is ironic that Campbell's slogan, "No creed but the Bible," has become a shibboleth of Baptist identity among many of the denominational descendants of those who stoutly opposed it in Campbell's day.

http://www.adherents.com/people/pc/Alexander_Campbell.html
 
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Steaver: Brother, I have challenged you many times to harmonize scripture and you would simply disappear when backed against the wall. Please!

HP: Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I cannot help but think that verse might be appropriate to ponder Steaver. :wavey:
 
Old Regular: I assume your question regards salvation. If so, I will answer your question. In Salvation the Grace of God in and of itself will determine the outcome. That is what Scripture states and to claim otherwise is to deny Scripture. But then some on this forum make a habit of doing that.

HP: Certainly I would not agree with your conclusions but I do appreciate your straight forward answer. I have no problem understanding your position.
 
Amy: HP, it is a shame that you want to make salvation so complicated and works oriented.

To "believe" in Christ is no different that having "faith" in Christ. To believe in Him, you must believe He is who He says He is, He did what He said He did, and believe the words He spoke. That is faith. You are splitting hairs.

The very word "grace" means unmerited favor. If there's any work you can do to be saved, then it is not grace. It is so simple a child can understand.

HP: I would say that the devil himself can believe as you define it, and trembles, yet he is not saved. The most wicked man on earth could ‘believe’ according to the definition you give of belief and split hell wide open. The wicked could believe that God said what He said, and that He did what he did, and believe the words that He spoke, yet refuse to repent and in the end be lost in a devil’s hell.

Jesus commanded me to do something to be saved. Repent is something that man must do. That in no wise constitutes salvation by works and does not change the grace of God one iota. God commands us to stay faithful until the end. That again in no wise suggests or implies that works save us or that anything we do is meritorious in nature. Your inability or unwillingness to understand or comprehend the distinction between the grounds and conditions of salvation does not necessitate error on my part or the part of anyone else that faithfully sets forth the conditions God states ‘without which’ no one will enter the kingdom of heaven. Setting forth the conditions God’s Word sets forth over and over for salvation in no wise makes salvation difficult to understand or accomplish if there first be a willing mind. Being faithful to set forth the conditions of salvation just as our Lord set them forth is by no means “splitting hairs.”
 

Amy.G

New Member
Look at the word believe in this verse:

John*3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.



pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.


This is what the word believeth means. It's not just a mental assent. The devil does NOT put his trust in Christ.


Also notice that those who put their trust in Christ (believe, have faith) will NOT perish.
 
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