church of Christ

[JSM17]

First of I would like to state that it is an honor for me to be able to post and communicate with others who believe in Christ. I am thankful that there are places were we all as human beings can relate to one another our thoughts on the things we have learned and come to undestand and believe. I knew that I would come under much scrutiny as I posted and began to debte with many of you, but I do so with strong convictions about what I believe. if i did not believe what I do then why speak at all. I certainly do not claim to have all the answers and I do not claim to agree fully with others in the church of Christ about many issues. having said that, I still hold to many things because I continue to strive to learn and that means having an open mind about everything that is said and spoken of to me from any person who has strong convictions about what they have learned in their life time.

If I am not sure about something I will study and pray and look into it. Coming to this forum helps me to better understand what I believe and why I believe it.

I believe that I came to faith by hearing the word of God, it pricked my heart and showed me who I was. I am a sinner in need of a savior. I realized that I had done God wrong and was sorry for that, so I decided to put the things of the world behind me and turn towards God. I was not afraid to confess Him before men and I understood the scripture to teach that I needed to be baptized in water in obedience to God's word for the forgiveness of my sins. Through my Christian walk I became stronger in faith and in my obedience. At one time I believe that I fell from Gods grace when I decided to follow after something that He did not want from me. It took a little time but soon enough I came to myself and repented. I believe I had fallen from grace. To which some would just say that I was never saved to begin with, but I know I was saved. I realize that I was foraking Christ and forfeiting my eternal inheritance. I believe that I was in error in my actions yet I still was a child of God, I believe that a child of God can still be a child of God and forfeit his eternal salvation. I do not think it is losing salvation, that seems to be different to me and to what I see in scripture. I was not re-baptized because I do not see any passage that teaches that one who needs to be restore needs to be rebaptized. I certainly see that one needs to repent and to pray that he my be restored.

My beliefs are open to new thoughts as I continue to study everyday, I continue to pray and learn about God and the things that I may have wrong. I believe salvation is of God through God and about God. I do not boast about the things that God has asked me to do in His name, faith, repentance, confession, baptism, and steadfastness are ablessing from Him. I would not be able to know these things if it were not for His grace and mercy towards me.

My intentions on this forum are strictly to learn through debate and conversation. I do not hold any contentions towards anyone of you, I merely seek to proclaim what i believe to be true and to learn more about what you believe.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe that a child of God can still be a child of God and forfeit his eternal salvation.

Do you have any Scripture to show that God would commit one of His adopted children to the lake of fire?

 

[MorganT]

First of I would like to state that it is an honor for me to be able to post and communicate with others who believe in Christ. I am thankful that there are places were we all as human beings can relate to one another our thoughts on the things we have learned and come to undestand and believe. I knew that I would come under much scrutiny as I posted and began to debte with many of you, but I do so with strong convictions about what I believe. if i did not believe what I do then why speak at all. I certainly do not claim to have all the answers and I do not claim to agree fully with others in the church of Christ about many issues. having said that, I still hold to many things because I continue to strive to learn and that means having an open mind about everything that is said and spoken of to me from any person who has strong convictions about what they have learned in their life time.

If I am not sure about something I will study and pray and look into it. Coming to this forum helps me to better understand what I believe and why I believe it.

I believe that I came to faith by hearing the word of God, it pricked my heart and showed me who I was. I am a sinner in need of a savior. I realized that I had done God wrong and was sorry for that, so I decided to put the things of the world behind me and turn towards God. I was not afraid to confess Him before men and I understood the scripture to teach that I needed to be baptized in water in obedience to God's word for the forgiveness of my sins. Through my Christian walk I became stronger in faith and in my obedience. At one time I believe that I fell from Gods grace when I decided to follow after something that He did not want from me. It took a little time but soon enough I came to myself and repented. I believe I had fallen from grace. To which some would just say that I was never saved to begin with, but I know I was saved. I realize that I was foraking Christ and forfeiting my eternal inheritance. I believe that I was in error in my actions yet I still was a child of God, I believe that a child of God can still be a child of God and forfeit his eternal salvation. I do not think it is losing salvation, that seems to be different to me and to what I see in scripture. I was not re-baptized because I do not see any passage that teaches that one who needs to be restore needs to be rebaptized. I certainly see that one needs to repent and to pray that he my be restored.

My beliefs are open to new thoughts as I continue to study everyday, I continue to pray and learn about God and the things that I may have wrong. I believe salvation is of God through God and about God. I do not boast about the things that God has asked me to do in His name, faith, repentance, confession, baptism, and steadfastness are ablessing from Him. I would not be able to know these things if it were not for His grace and mercy towards me.

My intentions on this forum are strictly to learn through debate and conversation. I do not hold any contentions towards anyone of you, I merely seek to proclaim what i believe to be true and to learn more about what you believe.

JSM17 I was born and raised Church of Christ for 20 yrs and I to had the same beliefs that you do, BUT when you stop using what you have been taught and study the word of God in context as it was written your eyes will be opened to the truth. I have no ill will to you, BUT I do want to show you the ere of your ways. Anytime you want to talk shoot me a message, I will be glad to talk with you. I have had so many conversations with my mom on these subjects in the last 19 yrs and we debate hard, my wife doesnt want to be anywere near us because she thinks we are fighting but at the end of it we hug each other and tell each other that we love each other. I love to study the Bible, it makes me really dig into the scripture and prove what I believe. Now with that being said let me know your thoughts on the scripture I provided.

Act 10:47-48 Can anyone forbid water that these, who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we, should not be baptized? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they begged him to stay certain days.

Tell me this how can someone that is not saved have already received the Holy Ghost. These people had not been baptized but they were saved as you can see from the scripture because they already had the Holy Ghost with them and get this they had the Holy Ghost BEFORE they were baptized thus cancelling out the church of Christ teachings with scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

Ive been saying this for years and he can not answer your question because if he does he will see just how wrong he is. I have had Church of Christ tell me that if they are facing a car accident and say Oh S**t in the process of that wreck and die then they are lost and going the H*ll. If it takes Baptism to gain salvation and you can lose that salvation then it takes Baptism to regain it. PLAIN AND SIMPLE however when you are basing your salvation on a WORKS method thats the kind of reasoning that you have.

Thanks for your response Morgan T. It is a terrible insult to God to believe that He cannot keep those who belong to Him contrary to what He teaches us in Scripture. If I believed as some do that I could be eternally lost after having been saved by God and experiencing His love and fellowship I could do nothing but live in fear continually.

 

[MorganT]

Thanks for your response Morgan T. It is a terrible insult to God to believe that He cannot keep those who belong to Him contrary to what He teaches us in Scripture. If I believed as some do that I could be eternally lost after having been saved by God and experiencing His love and fellowship I could do nothing but live in fear continually.

JSM17 believes every word that he is saying because that is the way that he has been taught. You cant blame a guy that is strong in his beliefs but its our duty to show him the ere of his way and when he gets his belief in check he will be fine. JSM17 we are here to help you but you must (and its going to be hard I know because I have been were you are) but you must look at scripture in CONTEXT and foget what you have been taught and look at what the word of God is telling you. 90% of what you have been taught is FACT about the bible, all the stories are correct its the 10% were the Church of Christ goes off the deep end with the baptism saves and also Music in the Church, ask me later and I will explain that one to you.

 

[TCGreek]

CoC folks have appointed themselves the gatekeepers of heaven.

They decide who are admitted in, not God.

If they're not a cult, they sure do have cultlike symptoms.

They're all about doctrine, not a loving relationship with the Father through the Son in the power of the Spirit.

 

[JSM17]

Do you have any Scripture to show that God would commit one of His adopted children to the lake of fire?

John 15:1,2 - Jesus said, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He TAKES AWAY..."

~ Note: This is someone in Christ who gets taken away because they did not bear fruit. The Greek word for "fruit" is "karpos." It means "that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result; or, work, act, deed; or, praises which are presented to God as a thank offering."

Obviously something a servant of God personally needs to have or else God will take that person away. The Greek word for "takes away" is "airo." I believe the meaning here is "to take off or away what is attached to anything; to remove."

So this Scripture is about God removing someone from being in Christ. So clearly, this is about someone forfeiting their salvation.

John 15:6 - Jesus said, "If anyone does not abide in Me, [U]HE IS CAST OUT [/U]as a branch and is withered (note: in order to be cast out, one must first be "IN Christ"); and they gather them and throw them INTO THE FIRE, and they are burned." ~

Note: The Greek word for "abide" is "meno." It also means "remain, continue, endure, not to depart, to continue to be present, to remain as one, not to become another or different."
Surely, this is a warning to stay in Christ, which means it's possible to not do so. To be throw into the fire and burned is clearly about God casting someone to hell where they will be consumed with fire. This will happen to a former branch in Christ.

So this is a clear teaching of Jesus that it is necessary for us believers to continue to walk in the sanctification given us at the new birth. We must keep believing and OBEYING HIS WORD (John 15:9,10), or we chose to stop our relationship with Him. That would be some of us not bearing fruit, which stems from not obeying Him, that causes some to be cast out. Fruit is our outward conduct which shows our inward character, which then shows that we serve Christ. One way it can be done is by speaking the truth. You will also see this in 1 Tim. 6:20,21.

1 Tim 6:20, 21; 20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-- 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.


1 Corinthians 10:1-12 - ... I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,... and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. THEREFORE LET HIM WHO THINKS HE STANDS TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL.

Colossians 1:22,23 - ...to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight -- IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH, grounded and steadfast, AND ARE NOT MOVED AWAY from the hope of the gospel... ~ Note: Again, this is conditional, with the phrase here "IF indeed you continue." The Greek word for "continue" is "epimeno." It also means "to stay at or with, to tarry still, still to abide, remain, to persevere." This Scripture implies that one can stop having faith and move away from the truth of God's word.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now THE SPIRIT EXPRESSLY SAYS that in latter times SOME WILL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. ~ Note: Paul sounds like he's really trying to get the point accross by stating: "the Spirit expressly says." With this kind of language, we better pay attention. It clearly says that some will depart from the faith. The Greek word for "depart" is "aphistemi." It also means "to desert, to fall away, become faithless, to withdraw one's self from." Either way that you look at it they stop having the faith. SO BE CAREFUL of deceiving spirits and KEEP THE FAITH..

 

[JSM17]

CoC folks have appointed themselves the gatekeepers of heaven.

They decide who are admitted in, not God.

If they're not a cult, they sure do have cultlike symptoms.

They're all about doctrine, not a loving relationship with the Father through the Son in the power of the Spirit.

There may be some truth to the atmophere that you may experience when you go to certain congregations, but I do not see coc folks as the gate keepers. Nobody has decided who is admitted. I would like to hear some of the "CULTLIKE" symptoms that the congregation that I worship with has, since you have apparently been to worship with us "FOLKS" to make this statement.

Yes doctrine is important, but a relationship with God is just as important.

I guess I could lump a majority of Baptist and others together as well, but it would be unmerited and dishonest.

Maybe Morgan T and a few others who have spent time in the coc understand that not all congregations are the same, they should be autonomous, yes for the most part we believe the same teachings on most topics, but not all.

If your going to make statements like the one you have made please explain your statement for clarification sake. Thanks

 

[TCGreek]

There may be some truth to the atmophere that you may experience when you go to certain congregations, but I do not see coc folks as the gate keepers. Nobody has decided who is admitted. I would like to hear some of the "CULTLIKE" symptoms that the congregation that I worship with has, since you have apparently been to worship with us "FOLKS" to make this statement.

Yes doctrine is important, but a relationship with God is just as important.

I guess I could lump a majority of Baptist and others together as well, but it would be unmerited and dishonest.

Maybe Morgan T and a few others who have spent time in the coc understand that not all congregations are the same, they should be autonomous, yes for the most part we believe the same teachings on most topics, but not all.

If your going to make statements like the one you have made please explain your statement for clarification sake. Thanks

So I guess you do not hold to the position that only COC folks are going to heaven?

 

[Darron Steele]

...

I guess I could lump a majority of Baptist and others together as well, but it would be unmerited and dishonest.

Maybe Morgan T and a few others who have spent time in the coc understand that not all congregations are the same, they should be autonomous, yes for the most part we believe the same teachings on most topics, but not all.
...

That has been my personal observation as well.

 

[JSM17]

So I guess you do not hold to the position that only COC folks are going to heaven?

I believe that when a human being comes to obey the Gospel and are stedfast to the faith they will inherit the promise of God of etenal life, no matter what label they amy or may not have. For me to say that all people in a particular group are all saved is to assume that I know their hearts and know everything about them.

Children of God who endure till the end will be in heaven.

 

[OldRegular]

JSM17

I believe that if you would spend some time, weeks not minutes, studying the prayer of Jesus Christ for His Church [John 17] you might have a life changing event. Then go to John 6 and spend some time there. You will learn that when God saves someone they are saved eternally and will spend eternity with Him.

 

[Darron Steele]

So I guess you do not hold to the position that only COC folks are going to heaven?

I believe that when a human being comes to obey the Gospel and are stedfast to the faith they will inherit the promise of God of etenal life, no matter what label they amy or may not have. For me to say that all people in a particular group are all saved is to assume that I know their hearts and know everything about them.

Children of God who endure till the end will be in heaven.

This is the common Church of Christ tack to avoid denying their beliefs that they really are the only ones.

Most Church of Christ members who do not believe they are the only ones headed to Heaven unabashedly say so outside their building.

 

[OldRegular]

A question for any and all who are believers in the teachings of the so called church of Christ. Your teaching is that water Baptism is essential to salvation. Your teaching is that once saved a person can lose that salvation and presumably will go to hell if he dies in that state. However, if that person believes again and is supposedly saved again you do not require that person to undergo water baptism again even though you say it is essential to salvation. It appears that your teaching regarding the necessity of water baptism to be saved is illogical or screwed up.

I am still patiently waiting for some advocate of the Church of Christ to provide an answer to the above questions. This thread will soon be closed so time is short.

 

[TCGreek]

I believe that when a human being comes to obey the Gospel and are stedfast to the faith they will inherit the promise of God of etenal life, no matter what label they amy or may not have. For me to say that all people in a particular group are all saved is to assume that I know their hearts and know everything about them.

Children of God who endure till the end will be in heaven.

So those of us who believe that we were saved before water baptism, Are we really saved according to COC doctrine?

 

[DHK]

I was saved, trusted the Lord as my Saviour, and then (because of lack of teaching), was not baptized until two years later. I was sure at that time that I would go to heaven if I had died.

However, according to COC doctrine, and especially according to you, JSM17, would I have gone to heaven in those two months before I was baptized?

 

[JSM17]

I believe that if you would spend some time, weeks not minutes, studying the prayer of Jesus Christ for His Church [John 17] you might have a life changing event. Then go to John 6 and spend some time there. You will learn that when God saves someone they are saved eternally and will spend eternity with Him.

I might, that is of course if I am elected to be saved and if the Holy Spirit will work on my heart before generation so that i can understand the word and so God can repent and believe for me. Oh wait, wrong doctrine, sorry.

This is the common Church of Christ tack to avoid denying their beliefs that they really are the only ones.

Most Church of Christ members who do not believe they are the only ones headed to Heaven unabashedly say so outside their building.

Well I guess you got me pegged, YEH !!!!!you win, or wait maybe you lose? mmmmm? It is amazing to me to witness the kind of unity (lack thereof) in the midst of even baptists, who cannot agree on most issues let alone really how one is saved, I was reading a thread to which you guys cannot even agree on what baptism really is, or how to deal with a couple living in fornication openly in full view of the chruch while he is a professing Christian.

I do not go around telling people they are going to hell point blank, even though it makes for a pretty interesting conversation. If you die in your sins then you will go to hell, end of story. If you believe that your sins are forgiven differently then the way that I believe they are forgiven, then either we are both wrong or just one of us can be right. You all ready know my position on salvation, PSSSST, it was in my OP.

I am still patiently waiting for some advocate of the Church of Christ to provide an answer to the above questions. This thread will soon be closed so time is short.

It was answered in my post on the last page, I told you that I did not have any scriptural evidence to support re-baptizing someone who has fallen from grace or strayed from the faith. Did you read it?

So those of us who believe that we were saved before water baptism, Are we really saved according to COC doctrine?

NO, according to God you are not saved by faith alone, you are not saved apart from repentance, confession, baptism, blood, grace, love, hope, obedience, etc....

I was saved, trusted the Lord as my Saviour, and then (because of lack of teaching), was not baptized until two years later. I was sure at that time that I would go to heaven if I had died.

However, according to COC doctrine, and especially according to you, JSM17, would I have gone to heaven in those two months before I was baptized?

I have never read a passage that says we trust the Lord and Saviour, where is that passage? That is where we split hairs, It is impossible to be saved by what some call their faith alone. You have not been baptized according to scripture so your obedience was never there and you still deny the purpose of baptism and even repentance. You ask me to tell you if you would have gone to heaven during that two months or two years not sure which one, doesn't really matter, no. I still do not think your going to heaven. The water does not have some special power, Christ saves you. His blood is what cleanses us from sin, It is as if you were buried with Him in faith alone, that you contacted His blood through your own subjective faith alone.

I think the fact that most take Romans 6:3, 4 and forward in a non- literal way. I believe that we are buried with Christ in baptism where he shedd His saving blood. Is Romans 6:1-23 talking about water baptism or Spirit baptism or both? If baptism is figurative, then did God really forgive our sins in this passage or is it just figurative as well?

What passage connects us with His blood? I am intersted to find a passage that says we believe into Christ and His shedd blood.

 

[MorganT]

NO, according to God you are not saved by faith alone, you are not saved apart from repentance, confession, baptism, blood, grace, love, hope, obedience, etc....

Now you see JSM17 I thought we were getting somewere but now you are back sliding on me. If the above is what you believe then you are going to have to explain to me

Act 10:47-48 Can anyone forbid water that these, who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we, should not be baptized? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they begged him to stay certain days.

Tell me how these lost souls "according to you" had received the Holy Ghost without being saved. When you can show me that, we can move on. I didnt realize that lost people received the Holy Ghost, this is new to me, so since you say that a lost person can receive the Holy Ghost could you please support that claim with scripture. These people had not been baptized however they were saved and Im showing you this with scripture not something that Im just saying or feeling so come on, the proof is right there in front of you. Faith is all it takes to be saved, however YES WE SHOULD GET BAPTIZED but its not essential to salvation.

 

[TCGreek]

NO, according to God you are not saved by faith alone, you are not saved apart from repentance, confession, baptism, blood, grace, love, hope, obedience, etc....

.

So I believe those of us who believe that we were saved the moment with came to faith in Jesus, who died for our sins and was raised again, are still in need of salvation, because we believe it was all before water baptism?

So are you here to get us really saved, since we are not, according to your conclusions on Scripture?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Reformation began more or less this time of the century, five hundred years ago, and every century produced several God-fearing men, lay and scholar, who answered in the favour of Grace before any be saved. Yet the scoffers multiply and multiply their vanities against Grace and the God of Grace and Faithfulness.

As fast as I came in. I'll be out.