Church Security

[Spinach]

I'm pretty sure I'm not for it, but I will put this on my list of things to think about.

 

[saturneptune]

Baptist Press carried an article on this subject today, by David Roach, writer for Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=30078

The article quotes two security officers with some tips I hadn't thought of before. There's obviously more to this than just strapping a .38 police special on your belt.

A couple of points:
There needs to be a plan in place.
Security officers should sit in specific places.
What should the pastor do if someone comes down the aisle in the middle of the service?
Local Police and Sheriff's Departments sometimes will be delighted to provide help with emergency planning.
Think about installing security cameras with recording capabilities.

David Roach's article also recommends two books on the subject: "Keeping Your Church Safe" by Ron Agular, and "An Introduction to Security and Emergency Planning for Faith-Based Organizations" by Jeffrey Hawkins.

I have no problem with the concept of protecting the local church. There are two issues in my mind that would have to be resolved before implementing such a plan. One, what do the state and local laws say? and two, is there really a person in the congregation who knows how to use a weapon well enough under a stressful situation that has a reasonable chance of hitting the target and not wounding or killing an innocent member? Former police and military police or security is good experience. Hunting is sometimes, but not always. As far as the concealed weapons class for a license goes, if one cannot hit the target thay require you to pass before you get your license, you need to have your eyes checked. So this is not always enough either.

 

[ajg1959]

We have a man who is armed at church. It doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I feel safer knowing he is there and prepared to deal with any potential threat. We have had drug users and bums walk into the church during services and you never know their intentions.

Actually my church invites drug users and "bums" in to hear the gospel. Isnt church where they should be? What are the requirements to attend your church?

Let me just say this. If I had to find a church that expected me to already be fixed before I went in, then I would still be lost.

What is a "bum" anyway? I am currently looking for a job...does being unemployed make me a bum? What about mentally ill people that are homeless? Some of them cant work, and have noone to care for them...are they "bums"?

After all, we were all something else before we became christians.

Back to the OP....law abiding folk should be able to go armed anywhere, including church.

AJ

 

[tinytim]

Here is a link about a church building that just got shot up over the weekend. I have some family that go there...

http://www.wsaz.com/home/headlines/41289767.html#

 

[blackbird]

I'm personally against any kind of violence or retaliation on the part of Christians. God has taught us not to be avengers. Christ healed the man whose ear had been cut off by one of his disciples.

As soon as I heard this sad story I immediately shuddered at how many churches would soon allow some members to begin carrying firearms into their sactuaries and in the halls. I was sad. While we can, and should, encourage appropriate security measures by vigilant people we should never condone the carrying of weapons as a defensive measure.

Just my opinion. Again I say it having served in two churches where the senior pastor was guarded by at least two armed guards because of his noteriety and (in one case) over realized sense of self.

How many accidental shootings will it take to shift public opinion the other way? It seems to me the greatest testimony of a church community is what happened with the Amish shootings several years ago, and how this church is acting in light of the more recent tragedy.

Although I am not a "anti-firearm" person---I fully agree with this post!! I do NOT recommend anyone "carry heat" into church buildings----I do NOT recommend "armed" members inside church buildings at large!!!!

Case in point--------remember when President Reagon was shot by that Hinkley fella???

Every Secret Service agent was armed to the hilt----with Uzi's and "9's" and whatever else----but no matter how armed they were----it didn't stop Hinkley---------he still got in close enough---drew the weapon---fired it----and in less than a second----it was over!!!! The Secret Service didn't fire first----they didn't fire at all------all they did was draw their weapons but it was over with before the first Secret Service weapon was drawn

The same scenero can be played out with "armed" men in church-----the "shooter" will come in---draw his weapon---shoot whoever---and it'll be over with before anyone can count to three-------and the "duffus" armed guard didn't have time to draw his weapon

Another case in point----------the Armed Services-----lets just say---the US Army----anyone care to bring us a report of certain "friendly fire" situations-----many cases of "friendly fire" begin with a REAL combat situation----the platoon engages "enemy fire"--------and in the confusion(and there will be a certain level of confusion)-----many times the riflemen-----"Mistake"---other comrades as enemy----------rehearse the scenerio in a given church situation----when there are 4 or 5 men and women carryin' "heat"----and then a shooter comes in and starts "popin' caps"-----now---if a trained soldier of the US Marines or US Army---gets "confused" during a firefight----and you just let a few bullets "sing" past your ears and you will become confused also---but if they can get confused and start pumpin' lead into friendly folks----think about what can happen in a church full of confused people

Sorry, guys----------no weapons in my church---and I repeat---I am NOT anti-gun!!!!

Bro. David
Pastor
Hughes Memorial Baptist Church
Pinson, Alabama-----outskirt of Birmingham

 

[rbell]

The article quotes two security officers with some tips I hadn't thought of before. There's obviously more to this than just strapping a .38 police special on your belt.

A couple of points:
There needs to be a plan in place.
Security officers should sit in specific places.
What should the pastor do if someone comes down the aisle in the middle of the service?
Local Police and Sheriff's Departments sometimes will be delighted to provide help with emergency planning.
Think about installing security cameras with recording capabilities.

We are blessed in our church to have:

• Five policemen
• A sheriff's deputy
• Three MP's--two of which have guarded terrorists at installations around the world.
• A federal marshal--former Army Ranger. He's a baad man.
• An ABI (Alabama's version of FBI) enforcement officer. He's also a baad man.

These people are involved on our security team. We have a plan in place similar to what is listed above. Some of the above are required to be armed in most situations. Because of this, arming our church members isn't a question we've had to deal with.

But upon the advice, input, and discussion of the above folks, we have prepared for several scenarios.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The same scenero can be played out with "armed" men in church-----the "shooter" will come in---draw his weapon---shoot whoever---and it'll be over with before anyone can count to three-------and the "duffus" armed guard didn't have time to draw his weapon

Certainly the same scenario CAN play out that way, but often it does not. Think back to the Wedgwood Baptist Church shootings here in Fort Worth. The gunman had a couple of minutes to shoot and murder while people were pinned down. A couple of minutes is certainly time to evaluate the situation and take appropriate action.

 

[rbell]

Another issue one needs to think about, that we deal with: In fact, this might be for many churches the most serious security issue you will have...

When your church is reaching people, you will reach messed up people (they're kind of like us church members ...and they need Jesus!).

I'm glad they come, and I tell them that they are welcome.

However, sometimes you have people coming who have substance issues. And they might come to church impaired.

I have had a couple of youth and young adults stopped/searched, and even one arrested over the years I have been here...because they were stoned/drunk, and driving. (no, I'm not talking church leaders...these were attenders. And the one who got arrested is now right with God, clean & sober, and active in our church)

I'm a parent of two children. I'd like to see them grow up.

A person impaired in any way at church that is driving (whether its codeine cough syrup, pot, or Jack Daniels) might be unarmed...but they have a two-ton gun that is pretty lethal.


Like I said...I'm glad they are coming, but safety can become an issue. (and don't get me wrong...this isn't a daily occurence, and our deacons aren't falling down stoned ).

 

[Baptist Believer]

I also reflect to the shooting at the New Life Church in Colorado about a year ago where (I believe) that shooter's gun also jammed before he could do more harm. That said I do realize the implication about an armed security force that goes with it. But isn't the point an interesting one?

Sorry, but your memory is faulty: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html

The news media actually has it somewhat wrong though. The woman who shot the attacker was not a "security guard" by a church member with a conceal-carry permit who volunteered (along with other church members) to monitor what was going on because of the murders the evening before at the Youth With A Mission training center.

 

[Tom Butler]

I have no problem with the concept of protecting the local church. There are two issues in my mind that would have to be resolved before implementing such a plan. One, what do the state and local laws say? and two, is there really a person in the congregation who knows how to use a weapon well enough under a stressful situation that has a reasonable chance of hitting the target and not wounding or killing an innocent member? Former police and military police or security is good experience. Hunting is sometimes, but not always. As far as the concealed weapons class for a license goes, if one cannot hit the target thay require you to pass before you get your license, you need to have your eyes checked. So this is not always enough either.

Your points are valid. I've checked Kentucky law. I think one may carry a weapon, but may not conceal it without a permit.

 

[blackbird]

So as a Christian we should never call the police when we are the victim of a crime, especially a violent crime? Or in the name of being non-avengers we allow the criminal to go about his way.

years ago----while the late Dr. Adrian Rogers was pastoring at Bellvue-----the story goes that while he was preaching one particular Sunday morning---a person from the congregation rushed to the pulpit and

POW!!!!!!

He punches Dr. Rogers right in the face with his fist

A group of men pen the puncher down and wisked him outside---Dr. Rogers finishes his sermon---meanwhile--the men who took the puncher outside call the "Law"---they take the puncher to jail

Dr. Rogers goes home---eats lunch with his wife, Joyce---and then tells her he was going to the jail to talk to the puncher and to witness to him

So-----off he goes to the jail-----he gets in to see the puncher---witnesses to him---tells him about Jesus and then tells the puncher that he(Dr. Rogers) has forgiven him for the blow to the jaw!!!!

On Dr. Rogers' way out of the cell area----the puncher asks him----"Does this mean you're gonna drop the assault charges???"

Dr. Rogers responds------"I came here to witness to you---tell you about Jesus and to let you know I forgive you!!! I didn't say anything about dropping the charges!!!!"

 

[abcgrad94]

Actually my church invites drug users and "bums" in to hear the gospel. Isnt church where they should be? What are the requirements to attend your church?

Let me just say this. If I had to find a church that expected me to already be fixed before I went in, then I would still be lost.

What is a "bum" anyway? I am currently looking for a job...does being unemployed make me a bum? What about mentally ill people that are homeless? Some of them cant work, and have noone to care for them...are they "bums"?

After all, we were all something else before we became christians.

Back to the OP....law abiding folk should be able to go armed anywhere, including church.

AJ

AJ, our church welcomes everyone as is. My concern is for the safety of our church members when strangers come in, because you don't know their intentions for coming and whether or not they are under the influence of drugs or alcohol. I'm not trying to pick on the homeless or jobless and if I sounded holier-than-thou I apologize.

In the past we had a guy under the influence of drugs wander inside for the purpose of stealing. He thought he could wander around the building while the rest of us were in the sanctuary. Another time this same person pulled a gun on me on the church's front porch and I had to talk to him calmly and diffuse the situation.

So, if I seems a little paranoid, please understand this is where I'm coming from on the subject.

 

[ajg1959]

AJ, our church welcomes everyone as is. My concern is for the safety of our church members when strangers come in, because you don't know their intentions for coming and whether or not they are under the influence of drugs or alcohol. I'm not trying to pick on the homeless or jobless and if I sounded holier-than-thou I apologize.

In the past we had a guy under the influence of drugs wander inside for the purpose of stealing. He thought he could wander around the building while the rest of us were in the sanctuary. Another time this same person pulled a gun on me on the church's front porch and I had to talk to him calmly and diffuse the situation.

So, if I seems a little paranoid, please understand this is where I'm coming from on the subject.

My pastor is the Board Chairman for the local mission/soup kitchen, and we encourage everyone to attend. A couple of the elders actually made their way into the church by menas of the mission many years ago. My mentor is a deacon whose day job is being the business manager at the mission.

We have a guy right now that never misses a service, but he looks like one of those hard core Grateful Dead fans, (Deadheads) from the 70's. Hair to his waist, tatoos, the works, but he is there every service and is hearing the word.

So I guess I am a little sensitive when it comes to accepting everyone. I have visited many churches where it was made clear that they didnt accept me for one reason or another.....mostly because I am reformed criminal, and divorced , which is even worse.

I see your point though, spreading the gospel to everyone does involve some risk at times, ans one has to be careful.

AJ

 

[Me4Him]

Years ago the church I attended sat on a street corner, we had a stranger come in and sat down on the back pew for the morning worship service,

After the service was over, he walked out the door, across the sidewalk, between two cars into the street and was killed.

Other than the normally released Info we were never able to contact anyone to find out more info about the man.

We never found out if he was lost/saved.

 

[preachinjesus]

I can certainly understand the sentiment, but are we not also called to protect those who cannot protect themselves? Unless you are a total passivist (reject war, self-defensive, police forces, government order by force), I’m not sure how you can draw a hard and fast objection to all forms of response.

I do object to warfare, police forces, and government order by force so far as the Church is concerned. The Church has no place condoning violence and harm against anyone and should advocate for life for all. While God has given the power of the sword to the government it is clear that the Church should not have her hand on its hilt.

Self-defense insofar as a precipitation towards non-violence is the New Covenant mandate imho. When we are struck across the cheek, what is Christ's command? Matthew 5:39

When someone comes and spits in our face, what is Christ's command?

I don't see any form of violence as inherently Christian and believe Christians should live at peace with others and the world. When someone comes to take your coat and wallet, what is Christ's command? Luke 6:30

When someone comes to make a legal complaint against you, what is Christ's command? Matthew 5:40

I don't see anywhere in the New Testament where His command it retaliation. Matthew 26:51-52

I don’t think anyone has been talking about vengeance... just ending a situation before others get hurt.

I just don't see how, given the Scriptural examples above, that violence or even the threat of violence is condonable from a Scriptural standpoint.

For what it’s worth, most of the time when a CHL holder pulls a weapon (a rare thing in itself), the incident ends without the weapon being used. It actually prevents violence because people don’t like to get shot. If you try to fight someone by hand, you will usually have more injury to innocents and well as the perpetrator.

Maybe starting off with the belief that violence is the way stop violence isn't the New Testament example.

What we have been talking about (spree killers and persons who are mentally ill) are usually going to take their life at the end of their rampage anyway.

Seems to me many of the "spree killers" in Iraq have been amongst heavily armed people. Perhaps the lesson is that we can't ever truly stop motivated people from harming others. Rather it is the Church's response to love and care for those harmed.

Should we discourage people from using their bodies as weapons to forcibly take down people who are harming innocents?

I think there is a significant difference between blocking through non-violent protection and beating and maiming.

Everyone who takes a CHL course (at least in Texas) has extensive training on the proper and legal use of force, and it’s only used as a last resort. But when someone comes into a room and starts shooting people, it’s pretty clear that you need to resolve the situation quickly.

And how often does an armed person open fire in a confined space highly populated with people?

Texas passed the law, and nothing of the sort happened. In fact, crime went down. Furthermore, conceal carry holders have stopped many acts of violence before they became much worse. I realized I was wrong and reconsidered the real evidence. And for various reasons, I have personally become trained and licensed to carry a concealed handgun.

My point here isn't the legality of the law. My point is that as Christians we should take higher road and not involve themselves with it. I recognize it is not a popular stance, but I have not other Scripture to convince me otherwise.

The Amish did well, but there is more than one manifestation of the way a church can honor and express the Kingdom of God.

I don't see how carrying weapons and shooting people is expressing the Kingdom of God.

I would go so far to suggest the Lukan passage (Luke 22:35-38) is misunderstood when some say it allows for violent retaliation. There is a better, more Scripturally sound interpretation imho that shows that Christ's statement is about the lack of faith in His disciples than endorsing violence.

just my $.02...keep the change. :thumbsup:

 

[preachinjesus]

So as a Christian we should never call the police when we are the victim of a crime, especially a violent crime? Or in the name of being non-avengers we allow the criminal to go about his way.

I'm not suggesting that Christians don't act accordingly with the law. Particularly when there has been a violent tragedy we have an obligation to seek out authorities and allow them to do the work that the God has given the state to do.

Nor am I suggesting that if you see a criminal walking down the street you don't try to find a police officer to pacify him.

What I am precisely saying is that there is, imho, no allowance for violent retaliation from Christians under the New Covenant.

We should allow the State to use the power granted by God. But the Church should never endorse nor applaud the use of warfare or violence as a means of accomplishing the Kingdom of God.

 

[preachinjesus]

What kind of security measures would you suggest?

I think RBell has some good stuff so far on this. Having a group of people who are willing to be trained about what to look for, how to respond to potential threats, how to communicate with the local authorities, how to stop (non-violently) incidents before they start, etc. is the key.

Also a clear channel of communication between major ministry areas (depending on the size of a church is important.) If the children's area gets locked down because of a potential intruder parents should not rush towards the children's area but a designated receiving area.

Schools have this in place. In fact in the public schools I attended security were not allowed to be armed (a drug free gun free zone) so they were taught how to deal with threats in a manner that isolated and confronted in as non-violent way as possible. While I was at that high school we had several incidents with students weapons that were dealt with quitely and peacably where no issue was brought up.

Violence and the threat of violence spurs more violence. I believe it sends the wrong message for pastors to be supporting an armed militia in their congregations. That is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ imho.

Suggesting that a Columbine or a Wedgewood is just around the corner is neither a way to disciple our people or appropriately plan for a tragedy.

Besides, and this comes from experience and after counseling many in law enforcement post shootings, "shoot outs" usually only last a few seconds and are over before most armed security can even draw their weapons. Life happens faster than Hollywood wants us to believe.

 

[JustChristian]

I'm not suggesting that Christians don't act accordingly with the law. Particularly when there has been a violent tragedy we have an obligation to seek out authorities and allow them to do the work that the God has given the state to do.

Nor am I suggesting that if you see a criminal walking down the street you don't try to find a police officer to pacify him.

What I am precisely saying is that there is, imho, no allowance for violent retaliation from Christians under the New Covenant.

We should allow the State to use the power granted by God. But the Church should never endorse nor applaud the use of warfare or violence as a means of accomplishing the Kingdom of God.

I agree with this view. There's no Biblical issue with "rendering unto Caesar" the responsibility to protect the populace through the use of police protection. Jesus preached, however, that Christians should love their enemies and turn the other cheek when attacked.

 

[thegospelgeek]

...
Besides, and this comes from experience and after counseling many in law enforcement post shootings, "shoot outs" usually only last a few seconds and are over before most armed security can even draw their weapons. Life happens faster than Hollywood wants us to believe.

But can't I dodge bullets and out run an explosion like jet Li? Oh man... you've ruined my day.

PS I agree with everuything you said. I'll trust God to protect me. However, if other's have sought God's will and are SURE that he is leading them to do otherwise, who am I to question them.


Oh no...
I just realized that I agree with preachinjesus AND JustChristian in the same post. The World will end any moment now!

 

[abcgrad94]

What I am precisely saying is that there is, imho, no allowance for violent retaliation from Christians under the New Covenant.

We should allow the State to use the power granted by God. But the Church should never endorse nor applaud the use of warfare or violence as a means of accomplishing the Kingdom of God.

Taking security measures to protect yourself against danger is NOT retaliation.

What on earth do you mean by "use of warfare to accomplish the kingdom of God?" Leading others to Christ does not mean you can't protect yourself. Carrying a firearm for protection doesn't mean you can't serve the Lord.

Have you ever had someone pull a gun on you while you were at church? I have. You can preach pacifism all you want, but when you're looking down the front end of a gun held by a dopehead, let me know if you change your opinion. It's one thing to tout perfect ideals, it's quite another to face the situation yourself! I firmly believe God let me face the situation I did so that I would learn from it and not find myself in similar circumstances again.