Baptist Believer, thanks for the reply. I hope to make mine a bit more concise and combine reiterated points. If I have overlooked something please let me know. :thumbs:
Baptist Believer said:
So good Christians are not to be soldiers, police officers or government officials (including politicians) since the government rules by the threat of force (and sometimes by actual force)?
Uh, I can't speak for anyone else but I chose not to join the military because I saw it as a violation of my Christian commitment to peace with all other men (and women.)
What is the job of the military? To kill the other guy. Not my thing. I don't believe violence ever solves anything.
Baptist Believer said:
That contradicts the examples set by John the Baptist, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in regarding to soldiers. John the Baptist did not tell the soldiers who responded to his ministry to give up being soldiers, but instead, instructing them not to abuse their position. Jesus didn’t condemn the soldiers he faced, including the centurion who’s faith made Jesus “marvel”. The Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius in the presence of Peter so God could teach Peter a lesson about who is “clean” and “unclean”.
I deeply disagree with this assessment.
Baptist Believer said:
You’re speaking of the church as a whole, not individual Christians. Certainly the church should not be an army.
Agreed! :saint:
Baptist Believer said:
And part of loving our neighbors is to help protect them. That’s why our taxes go towards things like a police department. A police department projects force against those who do evil.
Not to retaliate.
Protection is different than retaliation. Show me a place in the New Testament where disciples of Christ (i.e. you an me and others) are told to do violence to others in order to create justice and protection.
Someone smacks you across the face. What is Christ's command?
Baptist Believer said:
The interesting thing about the word “Christian” is that it should denote a follower of Christ. Have you noticed that Christ is also a warrior?
Well this is an eschatological imagery that is not given to the rest of the Church. Also I would caution anyone to look at Christ as a warrior or some great leader who will come back and physically defeat our enemies. That is what the Jews were looking for and they missed Jesus. While I embrace a historical premillenial view of eschatology I disagree this is applicable for the Church.
It is interesting that all actions in and around the return of Christ are done by members of the Trinity and never by humans...insofar as establishing the eschaton. But I digress...
Baptist Believer said:
I don’t either. However, we haven’t really been talking about retaliation in this thread. We have been talking about defense.
Show me in the New Testament where Chrisitans, who are under the New Covenant, are permitted to hit back when someone strikes you across the cheek (a violent act), or steals your cloak (mugging), or sues you.
Baptist Believer said:
I don’t either. However, a person with a concealed weapon is not threatening violence.
Yes they are. The threat of violence is an effective deterant, yes, but not how the follower of Christ is respond according to the New Testament.
Baptist Believer said:
The use of force, up to and including lethal force, can sometimes end an incident of violence.
Some might point out that it just lengthens the incident of violence.
Baptist Believer said:
And, in my opinion, it is a better thing to try to prevent people from being harmed in the first place.
Perhaps my point is that we can never prevent people from being harmed when the intent of an attacker is so focused. When we respond with further violence we only prolong the effect and incur more damage.
Baptist Believer said:
Carrying a concealed handgun gives you more options, should you need them.
Frankly, carrying a concelaed handgun only gives to 6 or 10 more options that are all limited in their scope and not awfully smart once they are released.
Baptist Believer said:
It’s clear you haven’t thought through this very well, or else you must think people who carry concealed weapons are complete idiots who can’t wait to shoot people and don’t mind shooting into a crowd!
Well I have thought this through. I believe an armed society bolsters more violence. Not the reverse.
Baptist Believer said:
So in reality, most situations are going to provide some opportunities for confrontation.
Actually most situations (according to my police friends and soldier friends) are over before our minds can wrap around what is going on. Again, the Hollywood illusion of a ranging gunfight is almost never the case.
This instance, which we are directly discussing, was over in seconds from beginning to end.
You've taken gun safety courses I believe. What do your instructors tell you to do, when armed, when someone comes running at you from twenty-five feet away? Pull out your gun and start blasting? Of course not you don't have the time to do that. They will always suggest another means to create space and/or ellude your attacker. Things move way too fast to think like you're suggesting is possible.
This is exactly why we don't need a bunch of gun owners packing to church on Sundays.
Baptist Believer said:
I suggest you meditate on Romans 13 and do a study on how everyone in the New Testament treated soldiers of the occupying Roman army. The Holy Spirit did not seem to have a problem with Cornelius, so I think it’s highly arrogant for us to say that being a soldier is evil.
Your being condescending. What do we truly know about Cornelius? We don't know how long he stayed in his profession. The testimony of many in the early church is that those in the military would serve out their terms faithfully and move into a non-violent ministry/vocation for the rest of their lives. The point here is to serve your current situation faithfully and then move on.
Baptist Believer said:
The Kingdom of God can be expressed by overcoming evil and defending the innocent and defenseless. Defending the defenseless is certainly a biblical theme. Please consider that in regard to this discussion.
I believe Scripture speaks of a different kind of defense. A non-violent defense. Do we really believe that its okay to go out and harm and murder those who perform abortions for instance? I'm against the practice but who here thinks its okay to go and end their lives?
Again I challenge you and anyone who disagrees with me: show me in the New Testament where Christians are given permission to "fight-back" or commitment violence against an aggressor before, during, or after they've acted.
Your arguments are good. I appreciate you voicing them. Really I do. Yet I'm the only one using Scripture here and have yet to be Scripturally refuted.:flower:
