Church Security

[Baptist Believer]

Sorry for using the word "dispensation." I didn't know it would be a stumbling block for you. I wasn't speaking of dispensations, strictly speaking. Look at the context.

In verse 35 he contrasts the past to the present:

[snip]

Thank you for your explanation. I'm going to take a bit of time and study this carefully.

I may have some questions in the near future.

Thanks!

 

[Marcia]

Okay, your reasoning here makes certain assumptions...


1.) The presence of firearms in the congregation is dangerous, and therefore undesirable.


2.) Persons who have conceal-carry permits only carry firearms to church.


3.) That church shootings are the only danger in church environments.


4.) That arming oneself is based on fear regarding things which are very unlikely to happen.


Responses to those assumptions:

1.) Modern firearms are not inherently dangerous when handled according to safety rules drilled into everyone by various groups (especially the NRA) and by concealed handgun licensing instructors. You must demonstrate the ability to handle a weapon safely to obtain a concealed handgun license.


2.) Most people with conceal handgun licenses carry everywhere they are legally allowed to carry. Which, in Texas, is most places. I have certain security concerns regarding our congregation’s safety, especially considering we have had to ask a mentally-troubled individual to leave our congregation because of violence against two of our youth. That person has gun violence and shooting fantasies which have manifested themselves in posed photographs of himself being distributed to members of our congregation. And yes, the police are involved, but there’s not that much they can do unless he acts on those fantasies.


3.) The church I am a member of sits in the middle of a neighborhood where a rapist has been attacking women, off and on, for more than a decade. On at least one occasion, police have gotten a glimpse of the rapist on one of our hallway security cameras while cutting through our building in his successful evasion of police officers. Therefore, I am always with my wife when she goes to the church facilities, especially after dark.

4.) Most people take a great amount of comfort in denial. “It can’t happen here” is the mantra of those who don’t prepare. The problem is, it can happen anyway. And beyond all of that, when there are recognized, verified threats to the safety and well-being of the congregation (as in my case) and the congregation does not have an opposition to self-defense, it is prudent to be prepared to handle emergencies as they arise.

I'm not talking about people who may have guns because of their jobs. I was talking about people purposefully arming themselves in church because of fears from attacks.

I do not think the miniscule statistic of the number of churches where shootings have happened merit this.

The comment about being with you wife after dark has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

I repeat: I am speaking of deliberately arming people in church during the worship services (I don't think this could be done in this state, but even if it could, I am arguing this way).

Nor am I in denial. As I said earlier, I have had someone point a gun at me and threaten to shoot (kill) me. My son has been attacked. I've been stolen from several times, chased in a car by another car (twice), and have had bad encounters when alone. I think it's even possible I've had more crime in my life than you have and have been threatened more (unless you are in law enforcement). I live in a very urban area with high crime rates, and always have. And I still say - no guns in church during the service.

 

[abcgrad94]

I understand if one is a total pacifist, not wanting weapons in the church, because you don't want weapons anywhere. Although I disagree, I still understand the pacifist viewpoint.

What I still don't understand is why some of you are against firearms in church, but think it's ok to carry elsewhere in public. (Aside from the fact that it's illegal in many states to have concealed carry in church.) I mean, if it's wrong to have it in church, shouldn't it be wrong period? If one is not "trusting God" by protecting themself at church, are they also lacking trust in God by carrying into the woods, or while on a trip, etc?

To me it seems like a double standard.

 

[abcgrad94]

Okay, your choice. Thank you for laying out your opinions for us to consider.

Please think though your characterizations of those with whom you disagree. We are not a bunch of trigger-happy nuts who will fire into crowds of people in an attempt to be a hero. Many of us have thought through these issues over the course of years. And a number of us have training and significant practical experience in tactical matters.

It took me nearly 10 years to decide to obtain a concealed handgun license after God convicted me of my responsibility to others in this regard. God had to change my heart in this matter and help me work through what Jesus is actually saying to His disciples regarding the use of force. But I'm not a Paige Patterson-wanna-be who has an unnatural obsession with guns or killing. I've had my fill of those folks.

I detest the use of force or violence, but realize it is occasionally necessary when everything else is ineffective. And since we are supposed to love our neighbors as ourselves, I need to also look after my neighbor's safety in an appropriate fashion. I won't even consider killing anyone for trying to steal property (unless it is something like nuclear weapons) or for many other crimes. But in the situation where life is in imminant danger, I will consider it.

To this I say a hearty AMEN!

 

[John Toppass]

It seems like you didn't want to address my points and instead said, "I'll pray for you." That's a non sequiter to what I posted. So I can only conclude you must not have had a good answer to what I said.

I have other things that need to be done. (like make a living) so responding in your time frame may or may not be in my time frame (which is trump) I have made all the points I need to, if you refuse to accept them then that is your privledge. In the mean time I will continue to pray for you and many others just as I hope others pray for me. If you do not have a need for prayer from others then I pray you will recieve an extra portion of blessings to share with others in need.:godisgood:

 

[JustChristian]

Nope.

That action was to prevent Jesus from being taken prisoner and crucified. Peter had a history of that behavior (see Matthew 16:21-23). Peter didn’t want the Kingdom to come through the cross, he wanted it to come through power. And that’s something completely different than self-defense.

If you bother reading the entire passage in context (and pay attention to everything Jesus said instead of just cutting Him off after the first two phrases), you’ll understand what Jesus is saying.

I agree with your interpretation of this passage of scripture. It was all about Jesus rebuking Peter for trying to prevent His crucification. The problem is that this is the primary New Testament scripture used to justify Christians using deadly force. What else do you have then? Jesus driving out the moneychangers? No. That's doesn't even necessarily involve striking anyone.

 

[abcgrad94]

What else do you have then? Jesus driving out the moneychangers? No. That's doesn't even necessarily involve striking anyone.

Carrying a gun doesn't necessarily mean firing it, either.

 

[matt wade]

Carrying a gun doesn't necessarily mean firing it, either.

One shouldn't carry a weapon unless you are ready to use it (and use it properly).
A gun should never be carried just for show.

 

[DHK]

Carrying a gun doesn't necessarily mean firing it, either.

If there is no intention of firing it, there should be no need to carry it.

 

[Tom Butler]

Carrying a weapon you're not willing to use is not only useless, it's outright dangerous. Leave it at home.

On the other hand, if you are willing to use it when necessary......

 

[abcgrad94]

One shouldn't carry a weapon unless you are ready to use it (and use it properly).
A gun should never be carried just for show.

Of course. I agree wholeheartedly. My point is that one can carry a gun and not have to use it. Carrying a gun should mean you are PREPARED to use it if necessary.:BangHead:

 

[Baptist Believer]

I'm not talking about people who may have guns because of their jobs. I was talking about people purposefully arming themselves in church because of fears from attacks.

Actually, I don’t carry a gun because of my job. But I do carry a firearm just about everywhere as far as the laws permit. You never know when you will be in a difficult situation, so you have to be prepared at all times. And if I knew I would likely face danger to my life by going certain places, I wouldn’t go there except for the most compelling of circumstances. I have no desire to shoot anyone or be involved in a fight of any kind. But if someone brings the fight to me, I have options.

I do not think the miniscule statistic of the number of churches where shootings have happened merit this.

I believe you’ve missed my point. Let me see if I can explain it more clearly:

You are trying to make a point using statistics regarding an average church (whatever that might be). Simply put, you make a valid point that, all things being equal, church shootings are relatively rare. That’s true.

The point I am trying to make is that I don’t belong to a statistically-average church (it doesn’t sound like you do either) and there have been valid and reasonable threats made against persons in our congregation. Specifically there’s one individual...

[DELETED because I shared too much about this person. I don't want to trigger an incident.]

There’s much more involved in this, but I can’t say much more without violating the privacy of a number of people on a worldwide forum.

Based on this information, don’t you think we have a higher than probably chance of something like a church shooting occurring on our church property?

It’s not paranoia or fear, but it is a sane understanding that this person can snap at a moment’s notice (as he has done twice at our church before) and do something very dangerous to himself or others.

The comment about being with you wife after dark has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

I had assumed I has made the point clear, but looking back, I had not.

The point is that women in the neighborhood of our church have had a long history of being attacked and violently raped. The person who has perpetrated these crimes works the area within a mile of our congregation and has most likely been inside our facilities on at least one occasion.

This is yet another reason for persons to be prepared for violent attack. I, and other men in our congregation, try to avoid having women walk anywhere outside our buildings alone and take up a prominent presence near places where women are meeting so we can walk out with them. A few of us are armed and some are not. Because we are in a part of town where a rapist has gotten away with his crimes for more than a decade, we can assume he does not appear threatening and knows his way around the area.

Again, this is not an “average church” but a church is a specific environment. Carrying concealed firearms allows us a measure of protection to act quickly that we may need. That’s the point.

I repeat: I am speaking of deliberately arming people in church during the worship services (I don't think this could be done in this state, but even if it could, I am arguing this way).

We don’t do that. Those who carry in our congregation, carry handguns everywhere else.

Nor am I in denial. As I said earlier, I have had someone point a gun at me and threaten to shoot (kill) me. My son has been attacked. I've been stolen from several times, chased in a car by another car (twice), and have had bad encounters when alone. I think it's even possible I've had more crime in my life than you have and have been threatened more (unless you are in law enforcement).

I'm not trying to diminish your experiences (I hate to hear about the crimes committed against you and your son), but we are talking about a different kind of crime. We are primarily talking about an active shooters or spree killers, not street thugs. It's a very different situation.

If the shooter at the Illinois church had cleared the jam in his firearm (generally it only takes manually cycling the slide on the handgun - which literally takes only about one second), he could have killed several others. Fortunately, he was only able to injure two other innocent people with a knife before he was subdued.

I live in a very urban area with high crime rates, and always have. And I still say - no guns in church during the service.

That is certainly your right and I can respect it.

Thanks!

 

[DHK]

Again, this is not an “average church” but a church is a specific environment. Carrying concealed firearms allows us a measure of protection to act quickly that we may need. That’s the point.

We don’t do that. Those who carry in our congregation, carry handguns everywhere else.

Let's get this straight. You carry a gun. You perceive a threat. You fire your weapon. Someone gets killed. You get charged with murder. You spend the rest of your life in jail. What have you accomplished?

 

[Marcia]

Actually, I don’t carry a gun because of my job. But I do carry a firearm just about everywhere as far as the laws permit. You never know when you will be in a difficult situation, so you have to be prepared at all times. And if I knew I would likely face danger to my life by going certain places, I wouldn’t go there except for the most compelling of circumstances. I have no desire to shoot anyone or be involved in a fight of any kind. But if someone brings the fight to me, I have options.

I believe you’ve missed my point. Let me see if I can explain it more clearly:

You are trying to make a point using statistics regarding an average church (whatever that might be). Simply put, you make a valid point that, all things being equal, church shootings are relatively rare. That’s true.

The point I am trying to make is that I don’t belong to a statistically-average church (it doesn’t sound like you do either) and there have been valid and reasonable threats made against persons in our congregation. Specifically there’s one individual...

Based on this information, don’t you think we have a higher than probably chance of something like a church shooting occurring on our church property?

It may seem you do, but if I were in that church, I still would not want people there with guns.

First of all, I do not think people having guns could necessarily prevent anything and might even harm more people. Only people highly trained in stressful and unpredictable shooting situations could respond (basically law enforcement people on active duty), and even then, it would be iffy. Several people on this thread have pointed that out, and I agree with them.

The point is that women in the neighborhood of our church have had a long history of being attacked and violently raped. The person who has perpetrated these crimes works the area within a mile of our congregation and has most likely been inside our facilities on at least one occasion.

This is yet another reason for persons to be prepared for violent attack. I, and other men in our congregation, try to avoid having women walk anywhere outside our buildings alone and take up a prominent presence near places where women are meeting so we can walk out with them. A few of us are armed and some are not. Because we are in a part of town where a rapist has gotten away with his crimes for more than a decade, we can assume he does not appear threatening and knows his way around the area.

There are rapes in the wider Wash DC area quite often, including the suburbs. I think it's good that the men escort the women when possible (this is not available to single women here who must walk through lonely dark parking lots at the metro or wait on metro platforms late at night sometimes alone - as I've done several times out of necessity before) but the reason this is not relevant is that I am talking specifically about being armed in worship services.

Again, this is not an “average church” but a church is a specific environment. Carrying concealed firearms allows us a measure of protection to act quickly that we may need. That’s the point.

I'm just not agreeing that this is necessarily a good thing. Also, here in VA, you can't carry a concealed weapon into a church.

Well, thanks for your views, Baptist Believer. We just disagree.

 

[Marcia]

I understand if one is a total pacifist, not wanting weapons in the church, because you don't want weapons anywhere. Although I disagree, I still understand the pacifist viewpoint.

What I still don't understand is why some of you are against firearms in church, but think it's ok to carry elsewhere in public. (Aside from the fact that it's illegal in many states to have concealed carry in church.) I mean, if it's wrong to have it in church, shouldn't it be wrong period? If one is not "trusting God" by protecting themself at church, are they also lacking trust in God by carrying into the woods, or while on a trip, etc?

To me it seems like a double standard.

These are my reasons:
Firing a weapon in a church is a much more dangerous situtation because it is firing in a crowd. Even highly trained marksmen in the police dept and SWAT are not supposed to do this except as a last resort. I'm not even sure they are supposed to do it then unless they have a clear shot of the shooter.

I do not think the statistics make it a plausible solution.

I find it disrespectful in the worship service to have people there with guns. It does seem to go against biblical principles, as others here have pointed out (I am not a pacifist btw). Blackbird and DHK made some good points on this.

 

[JustChristian]

I think what has been described is a matter for the police not armed vigilante groups. Are the police aware of this situation? Have they done anything? If not you (Baptist Believer) should raise it to the attention of ranking police officers, the chief, the city council, etc. I think neighborhood watch groups are excellent but they should refer any problems to the police. They should not shoot it out with criminals on the streets. This could prompt an escalation of violence. (You arm, the criminals arm more, you up the ante, etc.)

 

[Baptist Believer]

Let's get this straight.

Okay.

You carry a gun.

Yes.

You perceive a threat.

Yes.

You fire your weapon.

Why do you assume I've drawn and fired my weapon?

There's a huge difference between perceiving a threat and firing a weapon.

I could go into tremendous detail regarding types of threats, the force continuum, tactical and legal issues, and my perceived ability to do more good than harm in a situation.

It is incredibly insulting for persons on this threat to assume that a person who carries a handgun is a Barney Fife-type that draws and shoots at any provocation.

Someone gets killed.

Who gets killed? Someone who is committing a crime that falls under the lethal force statute, or an innocent bystander?

You get charged with murder.

Actually, it goes to the grand jury in any case and the grand jury will determine if there was reasonable cause to act the way I did.

If the grand jury does not believe I acted reasonably, I get charged with manslaughter or murder (of course, murder is pre-meditated, so it is highly unlikely that would be the charge) and it goes to a jury of 12.

You spend the rest of your life in jail.

Since I am HIGHLY unlikely to shot anyone unless I know for certain that they are the bad guy (that is, witness it with my own eyes so that there is no doubt), this really isn't likely.

What have you accomplished?

Well, since you apparently think I'm an idiot who shoots at anything, then that means I'm off the street and not longer a danger to society.

 

[Baptist Believer]

First of all, I do not think people having guns could necessarily prevent anything and might even harm more people. Only people highly trained in stressful and unpredictable shooting situations could respond (basically law enforcement people on active duty), and even then, it would be iffy. Several people on this thread have pointed that out, and I agree with them.

SEALE Police Academy (Bedford OH) manager Ron Borsch reports their reality research has established that aggressive action, by even a solo actor, has been, and is now, the most effective countermeasure in stopping the active killer, (four victims in the same event, time, location). For example, initially solo unarmed civilians have accounted for fifty percent of mass murder aborts, (25 percent by armed citizens).

 

[Baptist Believer]

I think what has been described is a matter for the police not armed vigilante groups.

So now we're an "armed vigilante group"?

vig⋅i⋅lan⋅te   [vij-uh-lan-tee] –noun
1. a member of a vigilance committee.
2. any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime. –adjective
3. done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures: vigilante justice.

We are people who keep a vigil.

We are people who are armed.

We are not people who take the law into our own hands... unless you mean obey the laws of the state and nation.

Those of us who conceal-carry are completely within the bounds of the law, are issued a license by the state, and are subject to regulation.

And we certainly don't avenge crimes.

Are the police aware of this situation?

Obviously, yes. Do you think we're idiots? The fact that you ask the question is incredibly insulting.

Have they done anything?

Yes. The person has been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Unfortunately, the crimes for which he has been prosecuted have amounted to little more than probation. He hasn't done anything terribly serious and up until recently, he has been underage.

I think neighborhood watch groups are excellent but they should refer any problems to the police.

Yes, obviously.

They should not shoot it out with criminals on the streets.

Sigh. Haven't you figured out that I really don't want a gunfight?

I don't buy a fire extinguisher because I want a fire. I don't wear my seatbelt because I want to get into an automobile accident. I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.

Thanks for the condescending lecture. I was too stupid to know that this is serious business.

 

[Baptist Believer]

These are my reasons:
Firing a weapon in a church is a much more dangerous situtation because it is firing in a crowd.

Simply put, you wouldn't fire into a crowd. People who conceal-carry have more sense than that.

I've explained this earlier in the thread. If someone starts shooting, people generally do one or more of the following things: flee, take cover, approach the shooter.

Most people are getting out of the way of the shooter, so there's not likely to be a crowd around him. Those of us who are conceal-carry, are generally looking for opportunities to get close to take him down physically, or with lethal force.

There are no wild shots across a crowded room except for the bad guy.

May we please put the "shooting into a crowd" fantasy to rest?