Church Security

[abcgrad94]

These are my reasons:
Firing a weapon in a church is a much more dangerous situtation because it is firing in a crowd. Even highly trained marksmen in the police dept and SWAT are not supposed to do this except as a last resort. I'm not even sure they are supposed to do it then unless they have a clear shot of the shooter.

I understand your concerns, Marcia, but here's some info a lot of people don't know, unless they are familiar with guns and concealed carry laws.

Police carry more forceful weapons that can penetrate car doors, buildings, etc. They have to be very careful if they fire because a single bullet has the potential to enter and exit more than one person, plus cause a lot of property damage.

The average concealed carry person does NOT want that kind of liability and will carry a smaller pistol, like a .38 special or a .22 pistol. (Actually a .22 probably wouldn't kill, just injure the attacker.) Those must be fired close range (like 10 feet) and you only fire when you are afraid for your life. At such a close range, you can't really miss the target unless your eyes are closed. At target practice, I've still hit the target with my eyes shut at that range.

Guns and bullets aren't cheap. Neither is getting a concealed carry, a background check for the concealed carry, a membership to a firing range, etc. Only an idiot would spend that kind of time money and act foolishly enough to have his license revoked.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Police carry more forceful weapons that can penetrate car doors, buildings, etc. They have to be very careful if they fire because a single bullet has the potential to enter and exit more than one person, plus cause a lot of property damage.

Yes, overpenetration is a huge concern. That’s one of many reasons you don’t shoot into a crowd.

Most conceal-carry people and law enforcement officers (however, not the military) use hollowpoint bullets. They tend to deform on impact and are much less likely to overpenetrate or pass through solid objects.

And then the choice of round is also important. For instance, a .357 SIG round (not .357 magnum) is designed to shoot through metal, wooden barriers and car doors, etc. That’s why law enforcement agencies such as the Texas Highway Patrol use it. That’s also why most conceal-carry people don’t use it.

The average concealed carry person does NOT want that kind of liability and will carry a smaller pistol, like a .38 special or a .22 pistol.

Laws vary from state-to-state, but in Texas, a .22 is not considered an appropriate round for conceal-carry. You cannot legally carry a .22 concealed, licensed or not, off your property. The reason is that the round has so much penetrating power and it prone to ricochet.

(Actually a .22 probably wouldn't kill, just injure the attacker.)

I have to disagree here. There’s no telling what a .22 might do to a person. It can pass right through a person, leaving a nasty, but survivable, wound. It can lodge in muscle tissue, causing relatively minor injury. Or, if it hits bone, can easily bounce around inside people causing tremendous damage.

President Reagan was nearly assassinated by a single .22 round. A larger caliber round probably wouldn’t have been as serious.

Those must be fired close range (like 10 feet) and you only fire when you are afraid for your life. At such a close range, you can't really miss the target unless your eyes are closed. At target practice, I've still hit the target with my eyes shut at that range.

Yes. Person who have to shoot usually shoot from within a few feet. There’s not that much room for error.

Guns and bullets aren't cheap. Neither is getting a concealed carry, a background check for the concealed carry, a membership to a firing range, etc. Only an idiot would spend that kind of time money and act foolishly enough to have his license revoked.

Absolutely.

 

[abcgrad94]

Laws vary from state-to-state, but in Texas, a .22 is not considered an appropriate round for conceal-carry. You cannot legally carry a .22 concealed, licensed or not, off your property. The reason is that the round has so much penetrating power and it prone to ricochet.

I have to disagree here. There’s no telling what a .22 might do to a person. It can pass right through a person, leaving a nasty, but survivable, wound. It can lodge in muscle tissue, causing relatively minor injury. Or, if it hits bone, can easily bounce around inside people causing tremendous damage.

Thank you, Baptist Believer. I am going to do more research about the .22 since this is the first time I've heard this. It may just be that state laws are different, but since WV Concealed Carry is recognized in several states, I'm going to check it out.:thumbsup:

 

[Marcia]

The fact some guns may not kill as easily does not change my views.

Fortunately, in VA, guns are not allowed in churches. This is apparently true in some other states.

Most states that allow concealed weapons place restrictions on where they can be carried. The majority prohibit weapons in schools, government buildings and places where liquor is served. Fourteen states prohibit concealed weapons in places of worship.

http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9227&Itemid=53

 

[John Toppass]

While, there are different views and beliefs that are soundly supported in the minds of the those who hold to them. The Govt. should not be the deciding factor what a church can or cannot do including allowing the legal possession of firearms in the church. Each church should be responsible for making their own decision. Carrying a firearm does not mean that it must be used carelessly. The media seems to push this urban legend and some in here have bought it hook line and sinker.

 

[Marcia]

While, there are different views and beliefs that are soundly supported in the minds of the those who hold to them. The Govt. should not be the deciding factor what a church can or cannot do including allowing the legal possession of firearms in the church. Each church should be responsible for making their own decision. Carrying a firearm does not mean that it must be used carelessly. The media seems to push this urban legend and some in here have bought it hook line and sinker.

I don't trust anyone with a gun unless they are active law enforcement, and even they make mistakes.

I'm glad there are laws limiting who can have a concealed weapon and where.

 

[DHK]

The Govt. should not be the deciding factor what a church can or cannot do including allowing the legal possession of firearms in the church.

So you advocate breaking the law to "protect" your church?
You haven't read Romans 13:1-4??

 

[John Toppass]

I don't trust anyone with a gun unless they are active law enforcement, and even they make mistakes.

I'm glad there are laws limiting who can have a concealed weapon and where.

You are in your rights not to trust anyone you choose. Please do not restrict my rights by making me cater to your defiencies.

Most police officers only shoot when they qualify and most (yes most) do not properly clean the sidearm they carry. But then again, most officers never have to pull their weapon (in this case it should be called a tool) in the line of duty.

 

[John Toppass]

So you advocate breaking the law to "protect" your church?
You haven't read Romans 13:1-4??

Wow to get that out of what I said you really had to twist it and fold it and mutilate it.

Yes I have read that and I even understand what it is saying. I do not have to agree with the govt but I do have to follow the laws. I am still allowed to work within the law to change the laws. Do you understand what I am saying?

edit* after seeing that you are in Canada I can sort of understand how you may have arrived at your conclusion. In the USA we do not consider ourselves as subjects of royalty, we consider ourselves to be citizens with rights over the govt..

 

[Baptist Believer]

Laws vary from state-to-state, but in Texas, a .22 is not considered an appropriate round for conceal-carry. You cannot legally carry a .22 concealed, licensed or not, off your property.

I was notified in a PM a few minutes ago that I was wrong regarding carrying a .22 pistol as a concealed handgun. I made that assumption because you cannot qualify with a caliber smaller than .32 in Texas. Although, there is no law restricting a CHL holder from carrying a .22, I would still discourage it.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Thank you, Baptist Believer. I am going to do more research about the .22 since this is the first time I've heard this. It may just be that state laws are different, but since WV Concealed Carry is recognized in several states, I'm going to check it out.:thumbsup:

I'm wrong about the .22. I clarified things in the previous post.

Sorry about the confusion.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I don't trust anyone with a gun unless they are active law enforcement, and even they make mistakes.

In my opinion, that's a strange position to take. Of course the way that many on this thread assume the absolute worst of conceal-carry holders, I guess it makes sense.

Of course I asked a question toward of the beginning of this thread if anyone could document a conceal-carry holder using their firearm to prevent a crime and hitting an innocent person. Either no one accepted the challenge or not one could find anything. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but conceal-carry holders across the U.S. have been incredibly responsible with their firearms for more than 15 years. That's a better record than professional law enforcement.

I'm glad there are laws limiting who can have a concealed weapon and where.

Believe it or not, I am to. This thread illustrates that a lot of people need training in basic tactics and gun safety before they pick up a gun. There's been too many "experts" who have posted warnings about conceal-carry folks shooting into crowds and firing at the slightest provocation. I don't want those "experts" to have guns because they would endanger everyone.

 

[JustChristian]

So now we're an "armed vigilante group"?

vig⋅i⋅lan⋅te   [vij-uh-lan-tee] –noun
1. a member of a vigilance committee.
2. any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime. –adjective
3. done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures: vigilante justice.

We are people who keep a vigil.

We are people who are armed.

We are not people who take the law into our own hands... unless you mean obey the laws of the state and nation.

Those of us who conceal-carry are completely within the bounds of the law, are issued a license by the state, and are subject to regulation.

And we certainly don't avenge crimes.


Obviously, yes. Do you think we're idiots? The fact that you ask the question is incredibly insulting.


Yes. The person has been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Unfortunately, the crimes for which he has been prosecuted have amounted to little more than probation. He hasn't done anything terribly serious and up until recently, he has been underage.


Yes, obviously.


Sigh. Haven't you figured out that I really don't want a gunfight?

I don't buy a fire extinguisher because I want a fire. I don't wear my seatbelt because I want to get into an automobile accident. I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.

Thanks for the condescending lecture. I was too stupid to know that this is serious business.

Why do you carry a gun then? Why not rely on the police and put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[Tom Butler]

You are in your rights not to trust anyone you choose. Please do not restrict my rights by making me cater to your defiencies.

Most police officers only shoot when they qualify and most (yes most) do not properly clean the sidearm they carry. But then again, most officers never have to pull their weapon (in this case it should be called a tool) in the line of duty.

A Kentucky State Trooper of my acquaintance was a trooper for 20 years and never had to draw his weapon.

 

[Marcia]

You are in your rights not to trust anyone you choose. Please do not restrict my rights by making me cater to your defiencies.

John, can you show me where or how I'm trying to restrict your "rights?"

 

[Tom Butler]

Kentucky has fairly loose gun laws. No permit is required to own, but one is needed for concealed weapon.

If you have a weapon in the car, under the law if it's in the glove compartment, it's not concealed. Cross into Tennessee with a weapon in the glove compartment and you're breaking the law.

I think you can wear a holstered weapon, but it's concealed only when it's literally concealed, as under a coat.

A conversation with a fellow church member shows how folks may divide on the issue. I suggested that a holstered weapon, openly displayed, could act as a deterrent. My fellow member just couldn't buy the idea of a weapon on display. He's also concerned about the proficiency and stability of the member with the gun in a stressful situation.

So it's obvious church security involves more than just strapping one on.

 

[rbell]

Why do you carry a gun then? Why not rely on the police and put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Way to show grace to a poster.

Can we assume, by your post, that if you are attacked, you will not call the authorities, since you "have faith?"

I eagerly await your evasion. :thumbsup:

 

[JustChristian]

Way to show grace to a poster.

Can we assume, by your post, that if you are attacked, you will not call the authorities, since you "have faith?"

I eagerly await your evasion. :thumbsup:

I was replying to the following:

I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.

I asked if you wouldn't shoot someone why do you carry a gun. Seriously, why is this not showing grace to a poster?

In my statement, I said that the better thing to do was to call the police AND (not to) put your faith in Jesus. Do you have a problem with that? If so, why?

 

[John Toppass]

John, can you show me where or how I'm trying to restrict your "rights?"

Marcia, you have not tried to do that as far as I can tell. If you feel like you need an apology then consider it earnestly offered.

I was just reacting to the way most people with this type of paranoia try to inflict it on others. You sound like an exception.

Prayers for blessings to you.:thumbs:

 

[Baptist Believer]

Why do you carry a gun then?

You clarified with the statement:

I was replying to the following:

I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.

I asked if you wouldn't shoot someone why do you carry a gun.

Wow.

I was illustrating a point using three parallel examples that I thought everyone could understand.

Let’s try this again…

I don't buy a fire extinguisher because I want a fire.

What this means is that I don’t really want a fire, but I will buy a fire extinguisher in case I need to use it. Frankly, I hope I never have to use the two fire extinguishers I have in my home.

I don't wear my seatbelt because I want to get into an automobile accident.

What this means is that I don’t want to be in an automobile accident, but I wear a seat belt in case something happens. Frankly, I hope I’m never in an automobile accident.

I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.

What this means is that I don’t really want to have to shoot anyone, but I carry a firearm in case someone else places me in a position where I need to protect my own life or the lives of my family and friends. Frankly, I hope I never have to draw the pistol, but I will do it if it is appropriate, and I will likely pull the trigger if I am forced to do it by the circumstances.

If you don’t understand that, I’m not sure we can have an adult conversation about important issues.

Then you said this:

Why not rely on the police and put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Let's consider both bits of advice:

“Rely on the police”

Our friend preachinjesus made a point the other day when he talked about how quickly things happen. His error was mistaking the initial act of violence as the entire incident and not thinking past the first few seconds of the event. However, he is right to emphasize that these events happen quickly. For instance, during the Wedgwood Baptist Church shooting here in Fort Worth on 9/15/1999, the shooter fired more than 100 aimed rounds (mostly hitting what he wanted to hit) and tossed a poorly made pipe bomb before he ended his own life. There was a police office who lived across the street who was alerted to what was happening by one of the hysterical teens who fled the building. He grabbed his police radio, called it the massacre and got almost every unit in Fort Worth rolling toward the church building. The off-duty officer then ran across the street, gun drawn to see what he could do. By the time he entered the building, the gunman had just taken his own life.

While the entire event felt like it took a long time to those person who were trapped hiding under the pews and watching their friends get murdered, the reality is that the shooting took probably only about two to three minutes at most. The police officer across the street didn’t have enough time to respond to make a different in the outcome, and the first officers responding from the radio call (a call which has more credibility than a simple 911 call), arrived about two minutes after the off duty officer entered the building.

There just usually is not enough time for the police to arrive in that type of situation.

It is not a criticism of the police officers to point out that the best service they could offer was to help the wounded and secure the scene. They were not able to end the killer’s deadly rampage. It was over long before they could possibly get there. However, one person with a firearm could have possible ended the massacre after only one or two people were shot. It would not have prevented the first death, Sydney Browning (I went to her funeral), because she was shot before anyone knew what was going on as the killer entered the building, but it’s possible the rest could have been prevented or greatly reduced.

“Put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”

I do put my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. But I also buy fire extinguishers, wear my seatbelt, buy health insurance, put money in savings, buy life insurance so my wife will have some financial options if I die unexpectedly, etc.

Simply “relying on Jesus” without taking sensible and prudent precautions is simply presuming on God’s grace. You may not have the same conviction, but that’s your business.