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Church Security

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abcgrad94

Active Member
Isn't that what I said? (Can't the church declare itself a violence free sanctuary?) I suppose I didn't use the word sign.

If your state law allows legal concealed carry and churches are not exempt, yes, your church can put up a sign prohibiting firearms. Also, check your church's insurance policy if this is a big issue for you/your church.

My problem was with the word "declare" because that implies a VERBAL preference. One's verbal word does not necessarily hinder my legal right to carry, but a sign would.

Please note, though, that while law-abiding folks will do what is required, posting such a sign may mark your church as an easy target for someone who has criminal behavior in mind.
 

Lysimachus

New Member
If God isn't going to protect His people, then we need to protect ourselves.

Wow...I certainly hope you didn't mean that the way it sounded!

I think what he means is that we shouldn't live on presumption, and expect God to just perform magic in protecting us. We must protect ourselves, but God can help us protect ourselves. We have to put forth effort, and God can help us put forth that effort providing we are doing our part. Am I right?
 

JustChristian

New Member
I think what he means is that we shouldn't live on presumption, and expect God to just perform magic in protecting us. We must protect ourselves, but God can help us protect ourselves. We have to put forth effort, and God can help us put forth that effort providing we are doing our part. Am I right?

No, you're wrong. There is no acceptable argument for bringing deadly weapons into the church.
 

abcgrad94

Active Member
No, you're wrong. There is no acceptable argument for bringing deadly weapons into the church.

Just because someone's opinion is different from yours doesn't mean they are wrong.

By the way, I have no problem packing heat when I go alone to the church to do the bulletin boards, especially in the evening. Those of you who are so against firearms in the church might want to think about a form of security for the church secretary or treasurer, if you don't want them left helpless during non-service times when they need access to the church building or property.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Just because someone's opinion is different from yours doesn't mean they are wrong.

By the way, I have no problem packing heat when I go alone to the church to do the bulletin boards, especially in the evening. Those of you who are so against firearms in the church might want to think about a form of security for the church secretary or treasurer, if you don't want them left helpless during non-service times when they need access to the church building or property.
Many churches have security systems which are quite effective. Some of them even contact the police. Far better to have a good security system than to have a bunch dudes carrying around semi-automatics.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
DHK...

"Many churches have security systems which are quite effective. Some of them even contact the police. Far better to have a good security system than to have a bunch dudes carrying around semi-automatics. "

Or "dude-esses", such as abcgrad. :laugh:

Seriously though, this is so unbelievably sad. People happy to be "packing heat" in church.

God help us.


:godisgood:
 

JustChristian

New Member
Just because someone's opinion is different from yours doesn't mean they are wrong.

By the way, I have no problem packing heat when I go alone to the church to do the bulletin boards, especially in the evening. Those of you who are so against firearms in the church might want to think about a form of security for the church secretary or treasurer, if you don't want them left helpless during non-service times when they need access to the church building or property.

Do you see anyone here saying that another person's opinion is wrong? That's a part of discussing issues, not a personal attack which, unfortunately, is pervasive on the board. And I think you're wrong in carrying a gun to church.
 

corndogggy

Active Member
Site Supporter
Many churches have security systems which are quite effective. Some of them even contact the police. Far better to have a good security system than to have a bunch dudes carrying around semi-automatics.

So if an insanely well armed man walks into a church intent on killing as many people as he can, and immediately starts firing when he gets in... how is your precious security system going to stop him? It isn't.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am conflicted about this one. I grew up for much of my youth on the east-side of a large New England city. I had somewhat of a baby-face and was beaten at least bi-weekly until I became part of a street gang run by my cousins who very crudely taught me the art of self-defense.

So the beatings stopped by reason of fear of my ability and gang-retaliation.

This combative way of life followed me unto the military (in the days of my youth you went to the military, college or prison as a draft-dodger).

I often went looking for fights on a personal level just for "the heck of it".

Then I was saved and everything changed. I felt then (and still do) that I could fight for the defense of my government/country because of
Romans 13:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.​

But I lost all of my desire to hurt anyone without provocation and even then went out of my way to be non-combative.

However, even sociopaths have fear of deadly force being used against them.​

Fear is a powerful deterent.​

Perhaps, if violence against Christianity becomes bad enough and if it comes to this, those members of the church who are police officers or soldiers could come to church on a scheduled basis in uniform.​

All but the front entrance locked soon before the service starts.
The halls and entrances patrolled (This part would not require uniformed members but would be more effective) after the service begins.​

In the days of my violent youth, I quickly developed a fear of the police uniform and was always on my good behavior when they were in sight (well almost always). So the uniform is an effective deterent especially with a firearm attached.​

This is a tough one and I am ambivalent. No wants to see their wife, children, grandchildren, pastor and brethren mowed down before their eyes.​

On the other hand there does seem to be something out-of-place with firearms in the church. Especially when we see the history of the church and Christians being burned, fed to lions, dismembered, often times with their Christian consent by refusal to bow to Caesar and give a toast to a false god of the Roman pantheon.

While it might be a small percent of the churches where these murders are happening it seems to be escalating.​

It is a reality.
Another reality is that God knows it is happening.​

HankD​
 
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JustChristian

New Member
I think what he means is that we shouldn't live on presumption, and expect God to just perform magic in protecting us. We must protect ourselves, but God can help us protect ourselves. We have to put forth effort, and God can help us put forth that effort providing we are doing our part. Am I right?

God doesn't "perform magic."
 

abcgrad94

Active Member
Do you see anyone here saying that another person's opinion is wrong? That's a part of discussing issues, not a personal attack which, unfortunately, is pervasive on the board. And I think you're wrong in carrying a gun to church.
Calling a person wrong and calling their opinion wrong is two different things. Sometimes the line between the two gets crossed here.

If you believe a security system or local law enforcement will protect you no matter what, that's your choice. If I choose to legally practice my right to bear arms, that's my choice.

Before I had a gun pulled on me at my church's front porch, I thought it was inconceiveable to carry a weapon to church. But, it took our local cops (stationed less than a mile away) over 2 HOURS to come investigate and file a report. I don't wish to find myself in that situation again.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Calling a person wrong and calling their opinion wrong is two different things. Sometimes the line between the two gets crossed here.

If you believe a security system or local law enforcement will protect you no matter what, that's your choice. If I choose to legally practice my right to bear arms, that's my choice.

Before I had a gun pulled on me at my church's front porch, I thought it was inconceiveable to carry a weapon to church. But, it took our local cops (stationed less than a mile away) over 2 HOURS to come investigate and file a report. I don't wish to find myself in that situation again.
Then file a report against your local police. Take them to task. In an emergency, the police can respond here in less than four minutes if a call is placed to 911.
 

corndogggy

Active Member
Site Supporter
I'm curious as to what the outcome would have been if the shooter in Denver had 4 minutes before he was interrupted.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I'm curious as to what the outcome would have been if the shooter in Denver had 4 minutes before he was interrupted.
Since when have Christians taken up the philosophy that two evils make a right? Thou shalt not kill. But wait; that command does't apply any more to Christians, just to the bad guys, right?

Scenario: A "shooter" enters a church and fires a gun. All of you are armed. The shooter is in the middle of the aisle. You all take out your concealed arms and fire. How many are either going to be dead or injured in the end?

The doctrine of "everything is relative," comes from the heretical religion of "humanism," and is not of God. God said, "Thou shalt not kill." He never rescinded that command as far as I know.
 

abcgrad94

Active Member
Since when have Christians taken up the philosophy that two evils make a right? Thou shalt not kill. But wait; that command does't apply any more to Christians, just to the bad guys, right?
Since when do we as Christians roll over and play dead when faced with danger to ourselves or our loved ones?

I'd like to know, those of you who are against weapons in the church, are you against guns period, or just in the church? It sounds like some of you are total passivists.
 

JustChristian

New Member
Since when do we as Christians roll over and play dead when faced with danger to ourselves or our loved ones?

I'd like to know, those of you who are against weapons in the church, are you against guns period, or just in the church? It sounds like some of you are total passivists.

You don't have to be a "total passivist" to be against carrying guns to church.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Since when do we as Christians roll over and play dead when faced with danger to ourselves or our loved ones?

I'd like to know, those of you who are against weapons in the church, are you against guns period, or just in the church? It sounds like some of you are total passivists.
I have a "Hunter Trainer's Certificate," and an "Instructor's Certificate for Hunter Training."
I have bronze, silver, and gold stars in marksmen shooting using military issue rifles.

However, with hunting, the targets are animals not men.
With target shooting, the targets are cardboard, not men.

The Lord said: "Thou shalt not murder."
Do you have a problem with that command?
 

just-want-peace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK sez:
Scenario: A "shooter" enters a church and fires a gun. All of you are armed. The shooter is in the middle of the aisle. You all take out your concealed arms and fire. How many are either going to be dead or injured in the end?
It's futile to even try to make sensible debate with a mindset that conjures up this trash as a supposed answer to the question!

There's an old Bugs Bunny/ Elmer Fudd cartoon that has a story line that the hat you have on can change your personality. A truck hauling a load of hats used in movie making has the cargo door to come open and all the hats go flying into the surrounding area.

As each hat falls on one of the two (Elmer or Bugs) they adopt the personality of the type hat, IE: a coonskin hat makes Bugs act like Daniel Boone, or a policeman's hat makes Elmer act like a cop, etc.

It seems that many on this board have the same belief about guns - if you carry, you're nothing more than Billy the Kid, or Jesse James et al.

C'mon folks, if you continue to rant & rave about a non-issue, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously IF you ever do bring up a valid objection?

DHK further sez:
The Lord said: "Thou shalt not murder."
Do you have a problem with that command?
Again, and I KNOW you know better, self-defense of self, or another being attacked, IS NOT MURDER.

'Course with this last election I can see how you might believe that if you say anything enough times, many folk will take it as gospel; even some here, but not most!

Now I been picking on DHK here, but there are a lot of posts in this thread that fit this description, so please guys, get real and cut out the Jr High tactics if, IF, (maybe this is key) you are serious about wanting to present a reasonable rejection of the original premise.
 

abcgrad94

Active Member
Again, and I KNOW you know better, self-defense of self, or another being attacked, IS NOT MURDER.

'Course with this last election I can see how you might believe that if you say anything enough times, many folk will take it as gospel; even some here, but not most!

Thank you, jwp. I agree. It is pointless to continue further debate when people equate self-defense with murder.
 

John Toppass

Active Member
Site Supporter
DHK sez:It's futile to even try to make sensible debate with a mindset that conjures up this trash as a supposed answer to the question!

There's an old Bugs Bunny/ Elmer Fudd cartoon that has a story line that the hat you have on can change your personality. A truck hauling a load of hats used in movie making has the cargo door to come open and all the hats go flying into the surrounding area.

As each hat falls on one of the two (Elmer or Bugs) they adopt the personality of the type hat, IE: a coonskin hat makes Bugs act like Daniel Boone, or a policeman's hat makes Elmer act like a cop, etc.

It seems that many on this board have the same belief about guns - if you carry, you're nothing more than Billy the Kid, or Jesse James et al.

C'mon folks, if you continue to rant & rave about a non-issue, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously IF you ever do bring up a valid objection?

DHK further sez: Again, and I KNOW you know better, self-defense of self, or another being attacked, IS NOT MURDER.

'Course with this last election I can see how you might believe that if you say anything enough times, many folk will take it as gospel; even some here, but not most!

Now I been picking on DHK here, but there are a lot of posts in this thread that fit this description, so please guys, get real and cut out the Jr High tactics if, IF, (maybe this is key) you are serious about wanting to present a reasonable rejection of the original premise.

Jr High tactics is all they can come up with. Their defense on their position is weak and without a base. So they resort to refusing to look at any facts provided. (The facts are throughout this thread many times) There are plenty of countries where the subjects depend on the govt. to think for them. The USA is one of citizens (although many are trying to turn it into a country of subjects and not citizens) where for now the citizenry does not have to curtsy to anyone.

I have no quarrel with anyone who does not want to defend themselves (what kind of witness is that?) What I do have a quarrel with is someone who tries to force their weak, unscriptual ideas upon me and my family. I will pray for those people and even defend them from danger if need be.
 
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