The Church and Israel in the New Testament - The Aquila Report
Please try to keep it civil
For those mixed up about the issue
Please try to keep it civil
For those mixed up about the issue
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Church vs Israel argument
- Thread starter Marooncat79
- Start date
Particular
Well-Known Member
In the article the author uses a term titled "true Israel." This term is poorly identified by the author. Paul, in Romans 9, identifies the children of the promise as the Israel of God.
Romans 9:4-8 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Second, the author is a dispensationalist. Dispensationalism is not identified in the Bible, it is a new theory held mostly by semi-pelagians in evangelical USA. It is not a predominant view in the worldwide church. As a former dispensationalist, I cringe at having been taught a philosophy of chopping up the Bible rather than seeing the whole of scripture as one body.
God has always chosen and God has always been the Redeemer of the children of the promise. No "dispensation" needed.
Romans 9:4-8 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Second, the author is a dispensationalist. Dispensationalism is not identified in the Bible, it is a new theory held mostly by semi-pelagians in evangelical USA. It is not a predominant view in the worldwide church. As a former dispensationalist, I cringe at having been taught a philosophy of chopping up the Bible rather than seeing the whole of scripture as one body.
God has always chosen and God has always been the Redeemer of the children of the promise. No "dispensation" needed.
At the time of Jesus’ birth, the faithful remnant (true Israel) included believers such as Simeon and Anna (Luke 2:25–38). During Jesus’ adult ministry, true Israel was most visible in those Jewish disciples who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Those who rejected Jesus were not true Israel, regardless of their race. This included many of the scribes and Pharisees.
Though they were physically Jews, they were not true Israel (Rom. 2:28–29). True Israel became def ined by union with the true Israelite—Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:16, 29).
However, if we are talking about true Israel, there really is no distinction. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the true church on the day of Pentecost.
This is the heart of it. Thanks for the solid links.
Though they were physically Jews, they were not true Israel (Rom. 2:28–29). True Israel became def ined by union with the true Israelite—Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:16, 29).
However, if we are talking about true Israel, there really is no distinction. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the true church on the day of Pentecost.
This is the heart of it. Thanks for the solid links.
true Israel could be saved Jews, now part of the Church!
Particular
Well-Known Member
Where is the term "true Israel" used in the Bible? Is it a KJV translation? I don't see it in my version.
I prefer the nas/Esv myself, how about spiritual Israel?
Children of the Promise?
Israel is a nation.
Israelites who accept Jesus as the Messiah or Savior are God's children.
I guess True Israel, the nation, is composed of True Israelites as opposed to False Israel, composed of False Israelites.
I find this very confusing.
Surely you intellectuals can simplify/clarify this bucket of worms - so to speak.
Israelites who accept Jesus as the Messiah or Savior are God's children.
I guess True Israel, the nation, is composed of True Israelites as opposed to False Israel, composed of False Israelites.
I find this very confusing.
Surely you intellectuals can simplify/clarify this bucket of worms - so to speak.
Spiritual Israel would be the saved Jews!Israel is a nation.
Israelites who accept Jesus as the Messiah or Savior are God's children.
I guess True Israel, the nation, is composed of True Israelites as opposed to False Israel, composed of False Israelites.
I find this very confusing.
Surely you intellectuals can simplify/clarify this bucket of worms - so to speak.
Then address them as saved Jews or saved Israelites not "Spiritual Israel". I would appreciate it.
I posted this in haste. Shoulda read it 1st
Particular
Well-Known Member
The nation of Israel is run by godless leaders who utterly reject Jesus as Messiah. Unless God brings them to repentance, they will invoke God's wrath, not God's blessing.Israel is a nation.
Israelites who accept Jesus as the Messiah or Savior are God's children.
I guess True Israel, the nation, is composed of True Israelites as opposed to False Israel, composed of False Israelites.
I find this very confusing.
Surely you intellectuals can simplify/clarify this bucket of worms - so to speak.
People whom God has chosen are the Israel of God. These people come from every nation, tribe and tongue.
National Israel will get right with God right before the Second Coming!
Particular
Well-Known Member
We disagree on eschatology. Jesus will return when the last of his elect are redeemed. Then comes the Day of the Lord. The nation of Israel may never repent, but there are some within Israel that will repent. A remnant.
Israel shall be reborn as a nation unto God at second coming per Zechariah and Ezekiel!
Please quote Scriptures. Your replies are worthless without supporting Scripture.
THE "Day of the LORD" was when Jesus redeemed Israel at Calvary, and the nation was reborn at Pentecost. Luke 24 & Acts 2. Note what Zechariah wrote -
Zec. 3:8 ‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
You and your companions who sit before you,
For they are a wondrous sign;
For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold, the stone
That I have laid before Joshua:
Upon the stone are seven eyes.
Behold, I will engrave its inscription,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day,’ says the LORD of hosts,
‘Everyone will invite his neighbour
Under his vine and under his fig tree.’ ”
You and your companions who sit before you,
For they are a wondrous sign;
For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold, the stone
That I have laid before Joshua:
Upon the stone are seven eyes.
Behold, I will engrave its inscription,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day,’ says the LORD of hosts,
‘Everyone will invite his neighbour
Under his vine and under his fig tree.’ ”
Zechariah 12:10
Particular
Well-Known Member
How does this make your argument?
Zechariah 12:10-14 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land shall mourn, each family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.
I take that into the Second Coming Event, when the living Israelites of that time shall see Jesus, and say now "blessed is He who comes ikn the name of the LORD!"
Y1, try to read this reply to you with attention to Scripture. A one-line reply is not appropriate.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah includes a number of clear references to the life, betrayal & saving work of Jesus, quoted in the Gospels. This passage is one such - John 19:34-37. There is an allusion in Rev. 1:7 which also includes mourning.
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
We need to note that "tribes" (Gk g5443 φυλαὶ φυλή phylē) normally refers to the tribes of Israel, and that "earth/land" (Gk ge) is normally defined by the context. "Tribes of the earth/land" would therefore be referring to the tribes of the land of Israel, who were guilty of piercing their Messiah, not the whole earth.
When Jesus speaks of "coming in the clouds," the alleged blasphemous words for which he was condemned, he is quoting Daniel 7:13-14, which in context is referring to his ascension to claim his throne, not his second coming for resurrection & judgment. Peter preaches the risen, ascended, reigning Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost in Acts 2.
Read on into Zec. 13:1
In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness.
That surely refers to the baptism that Peter preached to those who were "cut to the heart," mourning because of their guilt. That is the wonderful "DAY OF THE LORD" that the prophets look forward to. Zec. 13 goes on to condemn the false prophets & prophecy that denies the fulfilment in Christ Jesus, and which is questioned in the OP.