1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing your experiences. What you say hits home with me.
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Churches Rarely Reprimand Members
- Thread starter rlvaughn
- Start date
I would say that it’s the absence of true Christian love. In its place there was a desire to apply pressure to get a father to sign off on an asbergers diagnosis so that he could obtain state funding for his church school. Now if that’s what you call embracing the family in loving communion
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PastoralMusings
Active Member
If you'll go back and read what I wrote, you will find that I stated that TRUE discipline is done in Christian love, and that evidently what you had seen was not TRUE discipline. I know what abuse looks like: I've ridden that bronc before. I can sympathize with you; but, to be honest, your reply makes it a bit more difficult to do so, as it seems a bit sarcastic. I can see no reason for that.I would say that it’s the absence of true Christian love. In its place there was a desire to apply pressure to get a father to sign off on an asbergers diagnosis so that he could obtain state funding for his church school. Now if that’s what you call embracing the family in loving communion
of course you can... but I cannot honestly say that I’ve ever seen a loving discipline executed ... quite the reverse. Personally I believe that is the lord that changes the offending person... sometimes through pain, sometimes through cohesion sometimes through church meddling (though you had better walk a fine line if you want to take that path because in a sense you are going to humiliate the person in order to get em to acquiesce and nobody likes that route). Did you ever think that you could indeed screw this disipline activity up while attempting to do the right thing? Then where are you... what, throwing the guy out?!? Now maybe the guy is worse off than before because you used tough love and it doesn’t always work. What do you do next... he is out on his arse and still messed up and you move from what, the loving Christian community to the garbage man that just through out the trash! Brilliant
of course you can... but I cannot honestly say that I’ve ever seen a loving discipline executed ... quite the reverse. Personally I believe that is the lord that changes the offending person... sometimes through pain, sometimes through cohesion sometimes through church meddling (though you had better walk a fine line if you want to take that path because in a sense you are going to humiliate the person in order to get em to acquiesce and nobody likes that route). Did you ever think that you could indeed screw this disipline activity up while attempting to do the right thing? Then where are you... what, throwing the guy out?!? Now maybe the guy is worse off than before because you used tough love and it doesn’t always work. What do you do next... he is out on his arse and still messed up and you move from what, the loving Christian community to the garbage man that just through out the trash! Brilliant
I have seen loving discipline executed... I was the offending party... I was guilty of moral sin and told my father who was a deacon and he brought it up in front of the church... He could have said forget it son no one would ever know... And that would have been the end of it... True to his Christian belief he followed the Lord... In time I repented and was restored, in the same loving spirit I was let go... That was the hardest thing my father ever did that I know of but I thank him to this day... That was over 30 years ago... We all sin and there is no one without it... Some say well that will never happen to me... In my sinful pride I said that too... Yes I remember the sin to this day but the forgiveness overshadows it... Brother Glen
That’s fine, but I wouldn’t necessarily view it the same way if the church I belong to and support it. If the church moved against me to manipulate me to get to my children you better strap yourself in and lawyer up cause I want you in prison.I have seen loving discipline executed... I was the offending party... I was guilty of moral sin and told my father who was a deacon and he brought it up in front of the church... He could have said forget it son no one would ever know... And that would have been the end of it... True to his Christian belief he followed the Lord... In time I repented and was restored, in the same loving spirit I was let go... That was the hardest thing my father ever did that I know of but I thank him to this day... That was over 30 years ago... We all sin and there is no one without it... Some say well that will never happen to me... In my sinful pride I said that too... Yes I remember the sin to this day but the forgiveness overshadows it... Brother Glen
Btw, I got a minister down the block that was discovered installing hidden cameras in order to see his administrative assistant... he also tried a Trump — I think you know where I’m going with this. Would I want this guy disciplining me?!? Come on
That’s fine, but I wouldn’t necessarily view it the same way if the church I belong to and support it. If the church moved against me to manipulate me to get to my children you better strap yourself in and lawyer up cause I want you in prison.
Btw, I got a minister down the block that was discovered installing hidden cameras in order to see his administrative assistant... he also tried a Trump — I think you know where I’m going with this. Would I want this guy disciplining me?!? Come on
You keep bringing up these lurid examples of abuse in the local church. Yeah. Sure. If anyone of us found hidden cameras in the church or had a pastor try to manipulate our children, it would cause an uproar. No right-thinking person will stand for that. But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about church discipline rightly administered and there are plenty of churches that do just that.
And there are enough examples of churches that are not so righteous... so is it a matter of trust that they will be trustworthy? Come to think of it, that would be a great question to ask a church I’m looking to join.
PastoralMusings
Active Member
It is illogical to judge a doctrine by its abuse. One should submit to doctrine as laid out in Scripture and live accordingly.
Abuse should be resisted, but truth should be embraced.
We can hardly call ourselves disciples if we are unwilling to truly allow discipleship to happen.
Abuse should be resisted, but truth should be embraced.
We can hardly call ourselves disciples if we are unwilling to truly allow discipleship to happen.
Let’s take a moment to explore the Prodigal Son’s Father in Luke 15. Wouldn’t we all agree that this is our Lords his most complete illustration of the character of his Father, whom he calls God?
Well this earthly father in the story allows his young son allot.... to make choices, even against the dad & wow he even empowers the young man by giving him money!
Now the son screws up big time and comes back begging, does dad punish the kid, does he impose a penance even though the son offers to work as a servant? Both this kids leaving and returning are viewed as necessary but painful acts of adult growth... in short, the father in this story makes mutuality and vulnerability possible. And he continues to forgive without grudge.
Very interesting story. I contemplate it in my own child raising life.
The highlight (or focus) of the story is Christ condemning the Pharisees' terrible attitude towards sinners.Let’s take a moment to explore the Prodigal Son’s Father in Luke 15. Wouldn’t we all agree that this is our Lords his most complete illustration of the character of his Father, whom he calls God?
Well this earthly father in the story allows his young son allot.... to make choices, even against the dad & wow he even empowers the young man by giving him money!
Now the son screws up big time and comes back begging, does dad punish the kid, does he impose a penance even though the son offers to work as a servant? Both this kids leaving and returning are viewed as necessary but painful acts of adult growth... in short, the father in this story makes mutuality and vulnerability possible. And he continues to forgive without grudge.
Very interesting story. I contemplate it in my own child raising life.
I can understand that
Let’s take a moment to explore the Prodigal Son’s Father in Luke 15. Wouldn’t we all agree that this is our Lords his most complete illustration of the character of his Father, whom he calls God?
Well this earthly father in the story allows his young son allot.... to make choices, even against the dad & wow he even empowers the young man by giving him money!
Now the son screws up big time and comes back begging, does dad punish the kid, does he impose a penance even though the son offers to work as a servant? Both this kids leaving and returning are viewed as necessary but painful acts of adult growth... in short, the father in this story makes mutuality and vulnerability possible. And he continues to forgive without grudge.
Very interesting story. I contemplate it in my own child raising life.
Dear Bro. "Earth, Wind, and Fire,"
One of my "radio mentors," Dr. RC Sproul said, "Theology needs to be done on the edge of a razor." With this in mind me thinks you are "mixing metaphors" or possibly confusing the two main points of the two issues: the Prodigal Son and Church Discipline.
Point One: Forgiveness and Legalism
It seems to me the major points of the Prodigal Son are; the Father's forgiveness of a wayward and sinful son who repents then receiving that son again into the family fellowship, and the older son's failure to forgive the younger brother. Probably the Pharisees are in view here.
Second Point: Church Discipline
How should a disciple of Christ who is in sin, who is in heresy, or who is causing discord amongst the church brethren be treated or dealt with over the sin. Now, this brings up many, many questions that should be handled gingerly for sure, with tenderness, and self examination. There are many things need to be addressed ahead of time, with documentation such as a constitution and bylaws giving parameters and guidelines for how to handle such.
Please do not nit pick my two explanations above. They are introductory not exhaustive.
"In my humble but most accurate opinion" (LOL! said tongue and cheek so please do not flame me), me thinks your are putting together two things that do not belong together.
FWIW!
sdg!
rd
Humble but accurate opinion...
“Don’t flame me”... now if that’s not an invite to—- never mind.
Pastor Durant provides great love to his church family. I’m sure he also would disipline them if they are falling of the beam. He has proven to me his sincerity. I would ask him for instructions.
“Don’t flame me”... now if that’s not an invite to—- never mind.
Pastor Durant provides great love to his church family. I’m sure he also would disipline them if they are falling of the beam. He has proven to me his sincerity. I would ask him for instructions.
Matt. 18 makes it clear that the objective of church discipline is that its subject repent and be restored. In the Prodigal Son, the father discerned that repentance had already occurred (reinforced by the son's statement), and when that is the case forgiveness/restitution is the biblical response. Should the sinning member choose not to repent, we must forgive but cannot in good conscience restore.
A church I useta attend had a well-like Music Minister who was married, but had an affair with a married music student he taught in his home. He confessed his sin, first to his wife who eventually forgave him, then to the pastor and deacons, who, after several executive sessions, removed him from his position, but allowed him to resign quietly. (But at least they prayed to Jesus to forgive his sin, and the man in question likewise prayed.)
However, all the other members of the congregation knew the story, and many questioned why the church officials couldn't forgive that sin if JESUS did. The argument went on for months, but the church held together, however, with a large turnover in membership. (The new Music Minister became quite a hit, which soothed many a ruffled feather.)
My wife and I weren't involved in the argument whatsoever, and so we watched it eventhally peter out. But I tend to agree with those who were for forgiveness. (Checking years later, we found the former MM had taken a similar job elsewhere, and, far as everyone knew, did not repeat his sin of adultery.)
We eventually left that church when it received a new pastor who was KJVO & made the church KJVO. That false, man-made doctrine is anathema to me & I will not attend a KJVO church. But that aside, I know of no other member of that church being called down for any alleged sin. (That church was Southern Baptist.)
Some churches have large-enough congregations that the pastor simply cannot know every member & their families very well. But I believe that EACH PERSON HAS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to live his/her own life as sin-free as possible, and it's not a pastor's job to try to be a caretaker or nanny to everyone.
However, all the other members of the congregation knew the story, and many questioned why the church officials couldn't forgive that sin if JESUS did. The argument went on for months, but the church held together, however, with a large turnover in membership. (The new Music Minister became quite a hit, which soothed many a ruffled feather.)
My wife and I weren't involved in the argument whatsoever, and so we watched it eventhally peter out. But I tend to agree with those who were for forgiveness. (Checking years later, we found the former MM had taken a similar job elsewhere, and, far as everyone knew, did not repeat his sin of adultery.)
We eventually left that church when it received a new pastor who was KJVO & made the church KJVO. That false, man-made doctrine is anathema to me & I will not attend a KJVO church. But that aside, I know of no other member of that church being called down for any alleged sin. (That church was Southern Baptist.)
Some churches have large-enough congregations that the pastor simply cannot know every member & their families very well. But I believe that EACH PERSON HAS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to live his/her own life as sin-free as possible, and it's not a pastor's job to try to be a caretaker or nanny to everyone.
Forgiveness? Certainly. Restoration of Leadership? Never!
Proverba 6:32 He who commits adultery with a woman is void of understanding. He who does it destroys his own soul.
33 He will get wounds and dishonor. His reproach will not be wiped away.
He can be restored to fellowship but if restored to leadership he will bring dishonor and reproach to the office he holds. That reproach, that reputation, will follow him for the rest of his life.
Even you, Cranston, still question his conduct, wondering about, but seeing no evidence for, his again committing adultery.
When I was a young man there was a neighbor boy who lived down the street. He liked to imitate his daddy. One day his daddy hung a beautiful new door on their house. It had been hand carved and beautifully hand stained.
The next morning the parents were awakened by pounding. Dad jumped out of bed and ran to the living room and there was little Freddy pounding nails into that beautiful new door.
Dad exploded! Little Freddy just looked at his dad and said, "No problem, daddy. If you don't like the nails I will just pull them out.
Even when all the nails were gone, the scars still remained. The door was permanently ruined.
The life of an adulterer is much the same. Even though the sin is gone, the scars remain, and can never be wiped away. If he returns to leadership he brings that reproach to that office with him, and not only demeans the office, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
God has set some standards for His Pastors/Deacons. It would behoove us to learn them. Understand them. And obey them.
Its time we started taking sin as seriously as God does.
If the church requires that the music director be an elder or deacon, then that person could not be restored to that position. If, as in our small church, the music director can be a lay person, I see it as a matter of liberty for an IFB work. One church might decide that the Proverbs 6 verses cited above would apply, and thus not permit restoration to that ministry. Another might conclude that one not holding one of the two NT church offices could be restored. A 3rd might permit restoration for a choir member but not the director.
It is a leadership position regardless if he is paid pastoral staff, unpaid deacon, or just a volunteer. He "Leads" the music and is therefore in a place of leadership.
When a visitor walking into a church the "Song Leader" or "Worship Leader" is often the first person he sees.
Remember what I said based on the very clear statement in Proverbs. He cannot be restored to Leadership.
So you go out and find another church that will... no big deal.