While I disagree with Awaken I see no reason to believe he is being deceptive or devious. Such accusations are unnecessary.
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Clear up confusion about tongues!
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Read the questions I placed before him. I have placed them before him TWICE and TWICE he not only side steps the questions but twists them into something altogether different. That my friend is being devious and deceptive in his responses whether you like it or not or accept it or not.
I'm sorry but the Spirit groans, not us. You cannot state that the groanings comes from us from using this passage.
Read all of verse 26. God provides the answer: "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."
So again, do you or do you not believe that prophets and apostles continue today?
I am not asking if you met one. I am not asking if you belong to a Charismatic church. I am asking whether or not you believe in the continuing servant gifts of prophets and apostles.
Second, can you find just one self-proclaimed prophet or apostle that has past the Biblical tests for prophet and/or Biblical qualifications for apostle?
Then quit talking to him. Your ugly accusations do not promote peace. He does not owe you any answer. He does not owe you any answer in any specific way. To many people are just down right mean around here. Always wanting to play gotchya. If he doesn't answer then consider the source and move on.Good grief.
What did Paul receive when Ananias laid hands on him? Who laid hands on Paul to receive the gifts?
ANother good observation..what did Simon see?
Your second point makes no sense with your first point! What "sense" of Holy Spirit did they receive?
No, I have made my belief plain...you are trying to twist it because you can not defend your own belief.
The Bible is plain that believers shall speak with new tongues. I also said I do not think all believers HAVE to speak in tongues for a sign of their salvation.
I know that a Prophet and prophesy is different! Romans mentions Prophesy not Prophets! The same word used in 1 Cor. that most of you say have ceased. You were trying to prove just because tongues were not listed in Romans was proof that tongues do not exist.
I know what you were trying to prove...and Romans does not prove it!
THe discussion about the groaning is who is doing the groaning? Did Jesus groan or did the Holy Spirit?
So why does the Holy Spirit groan?
1 Cor. 14:2 is about SPEAKING in tongues in general. If you can SPEAK in tongues then you can SING in tongues because singing is SPEAKING and if you can SPEAK in tongues you can give a BLESSING in tongues because giving a verbal BLESSING is SPEAKING. 1 Cor. 14:2 says nothing about "praying" either but it is included because if you can SPEAK in tongues you can do it any way speaking is done.
No it does not say that. It simply describes in what manner one is speaking in tongues - prayer as in verse 16 it describes another manner one is speaking in tongues - singing. You just as well says "tongues" is singing with my spirit as to say "tongues" is praying with my spirit. Neither is true as you can sing and pray with your spirit in your ordinary normal langauage also and Christians do it every day!
There is no PRIVAE praying or singing in tongue here either but there are LISTENERS present (v. 17).
It says nothing about "we" but "I" and what Paul determined how he would use tongues and he would not use it without understanding.
No he is not! He is saying that only when tongues does not accompany understanding that only God understands as none hearing you understand but you are speaking INTO THE AIR. In addition, if they are speaking in tongues and the speaker does not understand it is "unfruitful" and it is something Paul "WILL" not do because it is impossible for self-edification without understanding.
No he did not call "praying with my spirit" tongues any more than he called "singing" with my spirit tongues. Both can be an activity of "my spirit" among MANY OTHER THINGS that have nothing to do with tongues.
I like Paul's explanation not yours.
Yes, he condmens one and says he "WILL" not do it and approves the other. That is the distinction between right and wrong.
If you do understand the difference then you are intentionally perverting Jude's words who says not one thing about tongues and you have no right or basis to assume he is talking about tongues UNLESS you really do not understand the difference and believe the phrase "in the Spirit" in connection with prayer always refers to tongue speaking.
Again 1 Cor. 14:15-17 says no such thing! Look, Singing in my spirit is not praying in tongues any more than praying with my spirit IS praying in tongues as both are merely things that the human spirit does AMONG MANY OTHER THINGS that have no reference to praying in tongues. You can "groan" in the Spirit as Jesus did and yet no tongues. You can "rejoice" in your spirit as Jesus did and many others and yet NO TONGUES.
Sure you can pray in tongues "in my spirit" or "with my spirit" but you can also "sing" in tongues "in my spirit" or "with my spirit" as much as you can "rejoice....grieve" or be convicted "in my spirit" and yet NO TONGUES. So to pray in tongues "in my spirit" is just one of many various activities of what one can do "with my spirit."
Since when is it your business to moderate? Why don't you mind your own business instead and I will mind mine? There is a difference between an accusation and a fact and what I stated was a fact. If you don't like that fact then stop reading my posts and mind your own business.
Where do you find preaching, teaching in 1 Cor. 14:2?
He said speaking in tongue.. we are talking to God.....Again, The last time I looked, God didn't need to be evangelized, yet he does desire our prayers.
Yes, praying in the spirit/talking in tongues etc. in church without interpretation is the correction...I have already agreed with this! Why do you keep bringing it up?
Here you clearly contradict yourself.
Either believers speak with tongues
Or they are not believers
Which is it?
I believe that Jesus gave the church apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ..TILL WE ALL COME IN THE UNITY OF THE FAITH, AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, UNTO A PERFECT MAN, UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULNESS OF CHRIST.
Where we disagree is that the signs mentioned in Mark 16 are only for the apostles!
Again, I can not test one if I have never met one! But tongues are not false! That I can testify!
He is not dealing with merely praying in tongues but SPEAKING in tongues in 1 Cor. 14:2. The manner in which one speaks may be praying, signing, preaching, teaching, exhorting, etc., but 1 Cor. 14:2 uses the word "speak" without specifying what manner of speaking.
The problem in 1 Cor. 14:2 is laid out in verses 3-13 and it is speaking without giving understanding to the listners just as verses 14-16 are about speaking without understanding being given to the speaker and/or hearer.
Instead of admitting this is the context of a contextually QUALFIED speaking in tongues you want to make it an UNQUALIFIED context and jerk statements out to convey the unbiblical idea that tongues is always toward God when in fact Paul explicitly denies that in 1 Cor. 14:19-23 and says it was by design a "sign" for unbelieving Jews and should not be used in church without the hearers also understanding it. That fact, proves it is for the edification of men as well.
Finish the context! He is not talking about the future coming of Christ but until the present members are matured in the faith so they won't be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. It is unifying the members of a local body of baptized beleivers in "the faith" once delivered he is speaking about. Apostles and prophets provided the written word. Pastor's and teachers use it for that end.
Again, you are purposely side stepping the questions. Do you or do you not beleive that prophets and apostles are for today equally as sign gifts?
Mark 16 is direclty addressed to apostles and their followers and viewed by Mark as a fulfilled prophech as He says they (apostles) did go forth and those things did follow. He never said they went forth and they ARE following us.
You don't have to meet one to test them. They have their prophecies all over the internet and you can test their prophecies by the Biblical tests for a prophet.
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How many times to I have to type this! Jesus was God! Are you God? Tongues was part of the promise poured out on the Day of Pentecost! Nowhere in scripture do you find it except for Isaiah and Mark 16...and that is saying it is coming!
Either way...you are submitting to the Holy Spirit! "Praying in the Holy Ghost" is only mentioned in 1 Cor. So again...I let scripture interprete scripture!
Lets look at another one of Pauls letters..
Eph. 6:18 with all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints,
This translation seems better, that we will pray with all [types] of prayer and at all seasons will pray in the Spirit. Is this necessarily saying that the "all prayers" must be "in the spirit?" I don't think so. I believe what Paul's intention is that on each occasion of prayer, you should spend some time praying in the spirit, right along with your other types of prayer.
Lets look at the Greek here, and come up with our own translation: First notice that "always" had been translated from three Greek words:
always [1722] en
[2540] kairos
[3956] pas
[1722]: AV - in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62,
through 39, misc 264; 2800
[2540] 1) due measure 2) a measure of time, a larger or smaller portion of time, hence:
a) a fixed and definite time, the time when things are brought to crisis, the decisive epoch waited for
b) opportune or seasonable time
c) the right time
d) a limited period of time
[3956] 1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
Therefore, this verse could be rendered:
proseuchomai.............Praying
en............................ in, by, with
kairos....................... with due measure or for a fixed measure of time
pas...........................each or every or any or all
dia............................with
pas...........................each or every or any or all
proseuche..................prayer
kai............................and
deesis.......................supplication
en............................ in, by, with
pneuma.................... the Spirit
kai........................... and
agrupneo..................watching
eis........................... thereunto
touto........................
autos.......................
en............................in, by, with
pas..........................each or every or any or all
proskarteresis............perseverance
kai ..........................and
deesis......................supplication
peri.........................for
pas.........................each or every or any or all
hagios.....................saints;
My translation
Praying with a proper amount of time, with each prayer and suplication, in the spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication, for each or all saints.
I believe what Paul was saying here, is that for each opportunity for prayer, one should spend some time praying in the spirit. That won't be all your prayer time, for you will spend some time praying with the understanding for the things you know you should pray for, such as praying first for those in authority such as our President. This goes right along with what Paul said in first Corinthians: I will pray with the spirit; and I will pray with the understanding also. Praying for a "proper amount of time" fits with what I have been taught over the years, that you continue to pray for something until you get a "note of victory" in your spirit. Then you know that you have prayed long enough. Many times, I have found that I cannot reach this "note of victory" without praying in tongues for a while.
With this understanding we can pray different prayers...
Ok, again I ask...if the Spirit prays God's perfect will (which He does) without our voice, why do we even open our mouth?
Obviously we are not going to agree with each other. Hence, we can drop this discussion and turn to something else or we can continue. That is up to you.
I have to drop it temporarily and go do some shopping.
Don't mistake my matter of fact confrontation style to be a dislike for you as a person or disrespect for your person. I do disrepect your doctrine and interpretations but I have no ill will against you personally.
The answer is in the text. Because we do not know many times what we really need and He does and he can do it without tongues being uttered by us.
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