COMMON-ground?

[preacher4truth]

How can a man possibly take the first step toward God? What does that even mean?

Yes, I disagree with quantumfaith also, as do you, against his stating he/man made the initial step, then after avoids the scriptures presented and extends a short trifling quip in defense and response.


- Peace

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, I disagree with quantumfaith also, as do you, against his stating he/man made the initial step, then after avoids the scriptures presented and extends a short trifling quip in defense and response.


- Peace

It was NO quip, it was NOT trifling. QED

 

[quantumfaith]

I got it....do you have a salvation story (personal) that you could refer to? That helps me (Personally) tremendously.

Thank You, I do appreciate that you read it and understood what I was trying to communicate.

My Story:

I was reared as a "military brat". Grew up in several states and in two foreign countries. My mother was the "driving" spiritual influence in the life of our family. Which is a "miracle" as she left home at 17 to marry my father and her family had no history of involvement with church or spiritual matters. Grew up in mostly SBC churches, save for some occasional Base Chapel. I acknowledged "who I was" and professed Christ at the age of 12 in Wiesbaden Germany at a unique SBC church. Immanuel Baptist Church. It was unique in the sense that Immanuel had both and american and german congregation which shared the facility and ministry. While we americans were in Sunday School, the german congregation was in worship, then we "swapped". I cannot say I was "converted" from an atrocious pagan life style, that is not trying to say that I was not as much of a sinner as anyone else, just that I did have the "Damascus road" experience. I attended Bible College for a couple of years, being mentored by a precious saint in my life Dr. J W Lee, Old Testament Professor. I then went from studying Chronicles to studying Calculus.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thank You, I do appreciate that you read it and understood what I was trying to communicate.

My Story:

I was reared as a "military brat". Grew up in several states and in two foreign countries. My mother was the "driving" spiritual influence in the life of our family. Which is a "miracle" as she left home at 17 to marry my father and her family had no history of involvement with church or spiritual matters. Grew up in mostly SBC churches, save for some occasional Base Chapel. I acknowledged "who I was" and professed Christ at the age of 12 in Wiesbaden Germany at a unique SBC church. Immanuel Baptist Church. It was unique in the sense that Immanuel had both and american and german congregation which shared the facility and ministry. While we americans were in Sunday School, the german congregation was in worship, then we "swapped". I cannot say I was "converted" from an atrocious pagan life style, that is not trying to say that I was not as much of a sinner as anyone else, just that I did have the "Damascus road" experience. I attended Bible College for a couple of years, being mentored by a precious saint in my life Dr. J W Lee, Old Testament Professor. I then went from studying Chronicles to studying Calculus.

I was hoping for some tangible evidence that the Lord went after you, convicted you, laid your life in front of you, showed you your errors & your unbelief, made you to feel embarrassed, made you to feel like the dirt on the side of the road you were....totally a heal. & then with that, He lifts you up like perhaps your mother did when you were a little boy & forgives you & loves you & held you & all you could do is look on in amazement.....feel the love of a Savior who cared deeply about you & then say yes..... yes I want to be a part of this. I want this!

If you had that experience just once in your life, Dave would know. Its wonderful & its life changing experience. I believe you then would know the path you need to take next.

 

[quantumfaith]

I was hoping for some tangible evidence that the Lord went after you, convicted you, laid your life in front of you, showed you your errors & your unbelief, made you to feel embarrassed, made you to feel like the dirt on the side of the road you were....totally a heal. & then with that, He lifts you up like perhaps your mother did when you were a little boy & forgives you & loves you & held you & all you could do is look on in amazement.....feel the love of a Savior who cared deeply about you & then say yes..... yes I want to be a part of this. I want this!

If you had that experience just once in your life, Dave would know. Its wonderful & its life changing experience. I believe you then would know the path you need to take next.

Oh believe me, I keep the HS busy enough with his ministry of conviction in my life.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh believe me, I keep the HS busy enough with his ministry of conviction in my life.

Oh I believe you....for me though its so new its still stunning:love2:

 

[webdog]

I was hoping for some tangible evidence that the Lord went after you, convicted you, laid your life in front of you, showed you your errors & your unbelief, made you to feel embarrassed, made you to feel like the dirt on the side of the road you were....totally a heal. & then with that, He lifts you up like perhaps your mother did when you were a little boy & forgives you & loves you & held you & all you could do is look on in amazement.....feel the love of a Savior who cared deeply about you & then say yes..... yes I want to be a part of this. I want this!

If you had that experience just once in your life, Dave would know. Its wonderful & its life changing experience. I believe you then would know the path you need to take next.

Are you questioning his testimony?

There is an awful lot of "feel" in your post. We don't base our salvation on our emotions, which is ironically what our camp is accused of.

 

[Winman]

Yes, I disagree with quantumfaith also, as do you, against his stating he/man made the initial step, then after avoids the scriptures presented and extends a short trifling quip in defense and response.


- Peace

I seriously doubt he means what you are saying. I would bet he heard of Jesus before he made any move toward him.

Personalities are different, some folks are very emotional when they receive Christ, another personality might not be so emotional.

 

[quantumfaith]

I seriously doubt he means what you are saying. I would bet he heard of Jesus before he made any move toward him.

Personalities are different, some folks are very emotional when they receive Christ, another personality might not be so emotional.

Thank You, and you are correct.

 

[Winman]

Thank You, and you are correct.

This is the whole argument between Cals and non-Cals, the non-Cal believes all mean are able, but not necessarily willing, to respond to the revelation of Christ through the gospel, while Cals believe man must be supernaturally regenerated before they can believe the gospel.

Paul discussed saving faith in Romans 10. He asked how a person can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him, he says faith comes by hearing the word of God. He does not mention here or anywhere else in scripture the need to be regenerated to believe.

The scriptures say the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth. So, you have to believe to receive the power, not the other way around.

 

[preacher4truth]

No announcement, and I know if I suggest you re read the post, it will only annoy you.

Oh yes, an error on my part as I've re-read.

Reading through the lens of your past theological stance I failed to understand what you said as I never expected anything seemingly contrary.

I'm certain then you are coming to the conclusion that it is Christ who chose you.

My apologies if necessary.

:thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is the whole argument between Cals and non-Cals, the non-Cal believes all mean are able, but not necessarily willing, to respond to the revelation of Christ through the gospel, while Cals believe man must be supernaturally regenerated before they can believe the gospel.

Paul discussed saving faith in Romans 10. He asked how a person can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him, he says faith comes by hearing the word of God. He does not mention here or anywhere else in scripture the need to be regenerated to believe.

The scriptures say the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth. So, you have to believe to receive the power, not the other way around.

How do you ignore testimonies by many that they were in open rebellion against God or just never believed....you totally ignore that! Believeth my rump. If God could take people who do NOT believe IE, most of todays believers & flip it then it truly is a wonderful event. Sorry that it just dont fit into your own theology Winman but Im telling you for a fact that you (YOU) have missed a critical element of salvation somewhere.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you questioning his testimony?

There is an awful lot of "feel" in your post. We don't base our salvation on our emotions, which is ironically what our camp is accused of.

I wasnt talking to you. Mind your own business.

 

[quantumfaith]

Oh yes, an error on my part as I've re-read.

Reading through the lens of your past theological stance I failed to understand what you said as I never expected anything seemingly contrary.

I'm certain then you are coming to the conclusion that it is Christ who chose you.

My apologies if necessary.

:thumbsup:

Thank You. I do believe I am of the "elect", but we will just have to respectfully interpret the doctrine of election different than one another.

 

[preacher4truth]

How do you ignore testimonies by many that they were in open rebellion against God or just never believed....you totally ignore that! Believeth my rump. If God could take people who do NOT believe IE, most of todays believers & flip it then it truly is a wonderful event. Sorry that it just dont fit into your own theology Winman but Im telling you for a fact that you (YOU) have missed a critical element of salvation somewhere.

Yes, he ignores things that tear down his theology. Most proof-texters and simple bible methodologists do.

Yep, according to these folks, we are pretty good fellers just down here seeking after God, doing good things, and the they went to the polls, an via free-will voted for God, all on their own goodness and ability. :laugh:

But this all denies the Scriptures many passages describing lost man and his condition of being hostile to God in their minds, works, and at warfare against Him.

I mean, how could good ol' boys ever accept they were as God says?

Good points EWF!

:thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

Thank You. I do believe I am of the "elect", but we will just have to respectfully interpret the doctrine of election different than one another.

But you do see how God does the choosing. Abram, David, Abrams seed (all that would be saved) and all the NT Scriptures conveying He did the choosing/electing?

 

[quantumfaith]

But you do see how God does the choosing. Abram, David, Abrams seed (all that would be saved) and all the NT Scriptures conveying He did the choosing/electing?

I do MOST CERTAINLY that God chose the individuals for the roles that they were to play in redemptive history. I am not convinced that this implies that this is "normative". I like Skan's description of "noble purposes".

Here is the fundamental difference with regard to election that you and I have (I think). I believe that it is possible for every person who has drawn breath on this planet to have membership in this club of the elect. Their membership in this group of the election is conditioned upon their expression of faith and belief in the Messiah (Son of God). Their ability to make this expression is God granted (His grace) but I believe that ALL mankind are granted this ability.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, he ignores things that tear down his theology. Most proof-texters and simple bible methodologists do.

Yep, according to these folks, we are pretty good fellers just down here seeking after God, doing good things, and the they went to the polls, an via free-will voted for God, all on their own goodness and ability. :laugh:

But this all denies the Scriptures many passages describing lost man and his condition of being hostile to God in their minds, works, and at warfare against Him.

I mean, how could good ol' boys ever accept they were as God says?

Good points EWF!

:thumbsup:

Truly it was not done to criticize but to listen & learn.....we must always consider things we dont 1st grasp in order to learn "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." A point we should all remember.

 

[Aaron]

I could only agree that Calvinists and Noncalvinists see the same Christ if I think of the Noncalvinist as one viewing a mountain from a long distance. The mountain does not look large or imposing. In fact, if the distant viewer holds his thumb up, his thumb appears larger and more powerful than the mountain.

The Calvinist is as one on the side of the mountain. He sees the rock more as it is, massive, majestic and imposing—much too large for his field of vision, however, in what he can see, he sees a great amount of detail the eyes of the distant viewer cannot make out, and, in comparison, he is insignificant.

If I think of it in that manner, I can say the Calvinist and the Noncalvinist are viewing the same Christ.

 

[preacher4truth]

I do MOST CERTAINLY that God chose the individuals for the roles that they were to play in redemptive history. I am not convinced that this implies that this is "normative". I like Skan's description of "noble purposes".

Here is the fundamental difference with regard to election that you and I have (I think). I believe that it is possible for every person who has drawn breath on this planet to have membership in this club of the elect. Their membership in this group of the election is conditioned upon their expression of faith and belief in the Messiah (Son of God). Their ability to make this expression is God granted (His grace) but I believe that ALL mankind are granted this ability.

Not as a belligerency, but I would be very cautious to use the term "club" within the context of our culture.

Allow me to elaborate and maybe you will see:

We have many that don't see man in the light that God does, as lost, hostile in their minds toward God, a heart of darkness, enemies of God, at enmity with Him, not seeking Him, astray, and may more descriptive words for lost man. Passages used to negate this dogma are misinterpreted verses. To do so is commentary on how a person feels about oneself at the foot of the cross, and is contrary to Matthew 5:3 and the attitude of believers according to Christ Himself.

Those who caste the above as light, and rally for mans good are in opposition to this, no matter how they spin it, it is seen in their theology. It is figthing for the good of man against Gods verdict upon the lost world.

Let me tell you something here, for a person to believe this and to enter a pulpit preaching this way would be conveying liberal theology, which places man high and above what God says.

So virtually, man is a bunch of good ol' boys, and joining the church under this fallacious view reminds me of one joining a lodge.

I reject this theological stance and error with all I am, and with apology from the Word.

- Peace