COMMON-ground?

[quantumfaith]

I am on the "unlimited atonement" side of the fence.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you...denying the sovereign Lord WHO BOUGHT THEM" (2 Peter 2:1). It is clear that the atonement included false prophets and false teachers who deny Jesus.

"Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for ALL, and therefore ALL died. And He died for ALL, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again" (2 Cor. 5:14-15).

"Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL MEN" (1 Tim 2:6).

Jesus...suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for EVERYONE" (Heb. 2:9).

Through one transgression [Adam's sin] there resulted condemnation to ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness [Jesus dying on the Cross] there resulted justification of life to ALL MEN [although all men are not part of the elect who will be saved]" (Rom. 5:18).

"He [Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD [kosmos]" (1 Jn. 2:2).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Then why arent ALL saved?

 

[quantumfaith]

Then why arent ALL saved?

That depends on your theological persuasion.

 

[JesusFan]

I well understand the difference and I am not looking for a strawman. I am decidedly against intentional fallacies like that and prefer to simply deal with truth.

I just have difficulty in understanding your take on these things, for what you write seems to indicate that you are traveling toward universalism. If the atonement is universal, then you have an additional problem to deal with, i.e., the inability of God through Christ to actually accomplish what He set out to do via the atonement. If he took the sins of the whole world (every soul, forever) then why are some still not saved. There are two responses, either Christ did not atone for every one or universalism. There really is no middle ground.

Mediating position, which i adhere to at present time, in that Jesus did indeed atone/die for sins of all peoples BUT that God requires in order for it to be effectual applied that people personally respond by faith in jesus...
Knowing that man is unable to do that, being spiritually dead, God applies Grace to His elected peoples, who will than have both the means and will respond by faith in Jesus and confirm their Election from/by God!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Heres a hero of mine, John Owen asking the exact question in more detail

God imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent the pains of hell for, either:

All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

If the last, some sins of all men, then have all men some sins to answer for, and so shall no man be saved.
If the second, that is it which we affirm, that Christ in their stead and room suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world.
But if the first be true, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of their unbelief."

I ask, "Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

John Owen

 

[JesusFan]

I am on the "unlimited atonement" side of the fence.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you...denying the sovereign Lord WHO BOUGHT THEM" (2 Peter 2:1). It is clear that the atonement included false prophets and false teachers who deny Jesus.

"Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for ALL, and therefore ALL died. And He died for ALL, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again" (2 Cor. 5:14-15).

"Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL MEN" (1 Tim 2:6).

Jesus...suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for EVERYONE" (Heb. 2:9).

Through one transgression [Adam's sin] there resulted condemnation to ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness [Jesus dying on the Cross] there resulted justification of life to ALL MEN [although all men are not part of the elect who will be saved]" (Rom. 5:18).

"He [Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD [kosmos]" (1 Jn. 2:2).

Jesus might have indeed died for all people, but unless God 'wakes them up" from their spiritual slumber, how can they have it effectually applied to their behalf?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jesus might have indeed died for all people, but unless God 'wakes them up" from their spiritual slumber, how can they have it effectually applied to their behalf?

So in other words, Jesus is just a potential savior ??? ...... Naaaa, no thanks, good ruck wit dat!

 

[JesusFan]

So in other words, Jesus is just a potential savior ??? ...... Naaaa, no thanks, good ruck wit dat!

Jesus is a saviour to ALL whom come to Him for salvation, and those are the Ones that God determined to allow His atonement to be effectual towards for their sins...

Died for all, but only those whom God has elected to receive its effectual value get saved, all others have common blessings that come from the Cross!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As an FYI.....here is a counter argument for you to digest if you so wish to.

here is a sampling:
A. Hitler and Stalin

If He earnestly wants to save absolutely everybody, then God desired to regenerate and sanctify Hitler and Stalin. Do we really want to say this? God raised up these wicked rulers (cf. Rom. 9:17), according to His eternal purpose in world history (Eph. 1:11) to manifest His judgments in the earth in war and slaughter and famine and disease (Rev. 6:4-8). But now we are told that God sincerely and ardently wished, wanted and desired to save Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Pol Pot and all the rest!


http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/doesGoddesire.htm

 

[JesusFan]

As an FYI.....here is a counter argument for you to digest if you so wish to.

here is a sampling:
A. Hitler and Stalin

If He earnestly wants to save absolutely everybody, then God desired to regenerate and sanctify Hitler and Stalin. Do we really want to say this? God raised up these wicked rulers (cf. Rom. 9:17), according to His eternal purpose in world history (Eph. 1:11) to manifest His judgments in the earth in war and slaughter and famine and disease (Rev. 6:4-8). But now we are told that God sincerely and ardently wished, wanted and desired to save Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Pol Pot and all the rest!


http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/doesGoddesire.htm

God will elect out for Himself a group of peoples for His glory and Honor...

redeemed based upon His grace and goodness, nothing within themselves

based upon God and His divine decesions, upon the hidden things that are the Lords

And God also is the Judge of those who do evil...

So all of the above get lake of Fire to be their final resting spot!

 

[quantumfaith]

Jesus might have indeed died for all people, but unless God 'wakes them up" from their spiritual slumber, how can they have it effectually applied to their behalf?

Although I do agree with the "sin nature" of mankind. I do not find myself in agreement with the typical reformed position of total depravity (total inablility)

1. I am not convinced that our natural rebellious nature given through Adam, necessitates that we are unable to respond in faith and belief to the message of the gospel.

2. In my estimation is entirely possible that all men possess a "prevenient grace", which of course is (in my view) resistible.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am on the "unlimited atonement" side of the fence.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you...denying the sovereign Lord WHO BOUGHT THEM" (2 Peter 2:1). It is clear that the atonement included false prophets and false teachers who deny Jesus.

"Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for ALL, and therefore ALL died. And He died for ALL, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again" (2 Cor. 5:14-15).

"Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL MEN" (1 Tim 2:6).

Jesus...suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for EVERYONE" (Heb. 2:9).

Through one transgression [Adam's sin] there resulted condemnation to ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness [Jesus dying on the Cross] there resulted justification of life to ALL MEN [although all men are not part of the elect who will be saved]" (Rom. 5:18).

"He [Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD [kosmos]" (1 Jn. 2:2).

Quantum,
you said;

I am on the "unlimited atonement" side of the fence.

But.....in truth.....you also limit the atonement

1] you do not think that Jesus died for satan..do you?



2] you do not think that Jesus atones for those who remain in unbelief do you?

So the real question is.....who determines who the atonement is for? God.....or man

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum,
you said;


But.....in truth.....you also limit the atonement

1] you do not think that Jesus died for satan..do you?



2] you do not think that Jesus atones for those who remain in unbelief do you?

So the real question is.....who determines who the atonement is for? God.....or man

Silly comment Icon, please just agree or disagee, but don't be silly. You are bigger than that.

God

 

[Winman]

As an FYI.....here is a counter argument for you to digest if you so wish to.

here is a sampling:
A. Hitler and Stalin

If He earnestly wants to save absolutely everybody, then God desired to regenerate and sanctify Hitler and Stalin. Do we really want to say this? God raised up these wicked rulers (cf. Rom. 9:17), according to His eternal purpose in world history (Eph. 1:11) to manifest His judgments in the earth in war and slaughter and famine and disease (Rev. 6:4-8). But now we are told that God sincerely and ardently wished, wanted and desired to save Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Pol Pot and all the rest!


http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/doesGoddesire.htm

I absolutely believe God wants to save all men, including men like Hitler and Stalin. Did God want to save the Jews who crucified Jesus?

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Peter told these Jews they had wickedly crucified Jesus. They were convicted and asked what they could do. Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and they shall receive the Holy Ghost (after believeing).

He then tells them this promise is to them, their children, and ALL that are afar off.

And Peter was no Calvinist, he told these men to "Save themselves"!

 

[Benjamin]

I well understand the difference and I am not looking for a strawman. I am decidedly against intentional fallacies like that and prefer to simply deal with truth.

I just have difficulty in understanding your take on these things, for what you write seems to indicate that you are traveling toward universalism. If the atonement is universal, then you have an additional problem to deal with, i.e., the inability of God through Christ to actually accomplish what He set out to do via the atonement. If he took the sins of the whole world (every soul, forever) then why are some still not saved. There are two responses, either Christ did not atone for every one or universalism. There really is no middle ground.

Fine, I’ll overlook your unintentional fallacy and stick to logic and truth.

My take is that you are logically leaving yourself no room but to travel down a road of pre-determination of creaturely response which leads to “Hard Determinism”. My understanding of the doctrine of grace that I preach is that it is genuine and to all God’s creatures and apparently greater than the “Doctrine of Pre-selected Grace” (Limited Atonement) that you hold to. My view of Universal Atonement allows for the necessity of creaturely response (free will) to avoid the fatalism that a Hard Deterministic view brings. (P.O.E./God being the author of sin) For the offer of redemption through God’s grace to be genuine (whether it be Limited or Universal)it must include the “real” ability of the creature (all His creature)to choose; the only way a Calvinist can avoid the fatalism associated with Hard Determinism is to hold to a theology of compatibility, but on that point concerning creaturely volition, as you say, “There is no middle ground.”

Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void; thus Hard Determinism.

Either God’s Love for His all His creatures in creation is true (being created by an Omnibenevolent God) along with His righteous judgment is genuine/true which by necessity both the former and the later requires that all creatures have the ability to choose or otherwise the offer of grace is not genuine. (it is pre-determined by the creator) If not genuine these necessary truths of the Nature of God (including Divine Omnibenevolence) are forfeited to hold to a Determinist’ doctrine thereby become fatalistic theology because they disregard the necessary truth of the existence of God’s Nature being Only Good and this in “Truth”. Again, there is no middle ground.

Complicated subject, I know, and I had to hurry (of to finish a job), hope I was clear enough that you can understand why I hold to Universal/Unlimited Atonement as it hinges on the nature of God rather than the 5 points of TULIP which hinge on Determinism.

 

[Benjamin]

Heres a hero of mine, John Owen asking the exact question in more detail

God imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent the pains of hell for, either:

All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

If the last, some sins of all men, then have all men some sins to answer for, and so shall no man be saved.
If the second, that is it which we affirm, that Christ in their stead and room suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world.
But if the first be true, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of their unbelief."

I ask, "Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

John Owen

Next time you see your hero ask him about how the logic of Determinism fits in with creaturely responsibility of sin:

Let me clarify a big problem you Calvinists have in this double-speak concerning sin and the offer of grace regarding your Determinist' view with some simplistic logic on this issue of thinking you can have it both ways:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

How can the creature be held responsible in God’s righteous judgment (Deut 32:4) if their ability (the cause, if you like) is “controlled” or determined?!
And how can the offer of redemption be genuine?!

 

[JesusFan]

Fine, I’ll overlook your unintentional fallacy and stick to logic and truth.

My take is that you are logically leaving yourself no room but to travel down a road of pre-determination of creaturely response which leads to “Hard Determinism”. My understanding of the doctrine of grace that I preach is that it is genuine and to all God’s creatures and apparently greater than the “Doctrine of Pre-selected Grace” (Limited Atonement) that you hold to. My view of Universal Atonement allows for the necessity of creaturely response (free will) to avoid the fatalism that a Hard Deterministic view brings. (P.O.E./God being the author of sin) For the offer of redemption through God’s grace to be genuine (whether it be Limited or Universal)it must include the “real” ability of the creature (all His creature)to choose; the only way a Calvinist can avoid the fatalism associated with Hard Determinism is to hold to a theology of compatibility, but on that point concerning creaturely volition, as you say, “There is no middle ground.”

Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void; thus Hard Determinism.

Either God’s Love for His all His creatures in creation is true (being created by an Omnibenevolent God) along with His righteous judgment is genuine/true which by necessity both the former and the later requires that all creatures have the ability to choose or otherwise the offer of grace is not genuine. (it is pre-determined by the creator) If not genuine these necessary truths of the Nature of God (including Divine Omnibenevolence) are forfeited to hold to a Determinist’ doctrine thereby become fatalistic theology because they disregard the necessary truth of the existence of God’s Nature being Only Good and this in “Truth”. Again, there is no middle ground.

Complicated subject, I know, and I had to hurry (of to finish a job), hope I was clear enough that you can understand why I hold to Universal/Unlimited Atonement as it hinges on the nature of God rather than the 5 points of TULIP which hinge on Determinism.

have to answer this one question though..

Does ANY creature other than God possess have absolute free will and voilation?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Next time you see your hero ask him about how the logic of Determinism fits in with creaturely responsibility of sin:

Let me clarify a big problem you Calvinists have in this double-speak concerning sin and the offer of grace regarding your Determinist' view with some simplistic logic on this issue of thinking you can have it both ways:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

How can the creature be held responsible in God’s righteous judgment (Deut 32:4) if their ability (the cause, if you like) is “controlled” or determined?!
And how can the offer of redemption be genuine?!

ahhh, technically I'm not a Calvinist. Shall I call you an Arminian? Also Ive always thought it better for someone to deliver their own message.

 

[JesusFan]

Next time you see your hero ask him about how the logic of Determinism fits in with creaturely responsibility of sin:

Let me clarify a big problem you Calvinists have in this double-speak concerning sin and the offer of grace regarding your Determinist' view with some simplistic logic on this issue of thinking you can have it both ways:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

How can the creature be held responsible in God’s righteous judgment (Deut 32:4) if their ability (the cause, if you like) is “controlled” or determined?!
And how can the offer of redemption be genuine?!

Who /why are poeple lost than in your understanding?

IF this all hinges on nature of God, he is Love, jesus died for all, not wikking any should perish, have been reconciled to Him thru God in Christ upon Cross..

Why not/can God just save everybody, why any get lost?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jesus is a saviour to ALL whom come to Him for salvation, and those are the Ones that God determined to allow His atonement to be effectual towards for their sins...

So if I never went to Him, now what?

Died for all, but only those whom God has elected to receive its effectual value get saved, all others have common blessings that come from the Cross!

So am I saved or not?