Communion - Grape Juice vs Wine - WHY

[Eternally Grateful]

To me its just another product of the general subjective lawless of Protestantism.

Bible means what anyone wants it to mean, till the Bible is meaningless.

Not only is the spiritual significance of the Eucharist lost on people, they even go on to destroy the elements for themselves.

I remember the Cookies and Coke travesty of years ago, it just makes a complete mockery totally profaning the Sacred. People thought it was funny.

ok now we have a problem

The flesh and blood that gives life in John 6 is not found in the eucharist. the eucharist is a mock and pagan ritual that leads no one to Christ.

Jesus called this bread from heaven a food that whoever ate it they would never die.

Not that we have to continue to eat on a regular basis, and we may not die.

 

[Ben1445]

I think we should move to modern Fortified Wines to discourage children taking communion as a snack.

The base for Port is made like any other wine. Grapes are grown, pressed and fermented with yeast, which converts the wine’s natural sugars into alcohol. In the production of fortified wine, however, there’s an additional step. Before all the sugar is converted to alcohol, a neutral grape spirit is introduced to the wine. This process is known as fortification.

For Port, the neutral spirit is commonly called aguardente, derived from água argente, which translates to “fiery water” in Portuguese. The aguardente kills the remaining yeast and stops fermentation. The resulting wines retain some of their residual sugar, resulting in off-dry to sweet final profilesand higher alcohol contents, typically around 20% alcohol-by-volume (abv). Wines are stored and aged in barrels before bottling. [SOURCE]

I prefer a different Spirit.

 

[Ben1445]

“Fruit of the vine” meant wine in Jewish culture, not what you choose to think it means. Grapes were already fermenting on the vine when picked to crush and press, vine ripening concentrated the sugars.
Fermentation begins straight away without refrigeration, it could not be stopped.

If they crushed grapes to drink, it was for wine or stored long enough it became vinegar.

Grape juice has to be refrigerated immediately and processed to stop the fermentation from natural yeasts on the skins. There was no refrigeration or pasteurisation to halt or kill the yeasts.

The Last Supper was at the end of March earliest April, grape harvesting in Israel starts in mid July through to October, so if Jesus and His disciples were drinking “ fruit of the vine “ it wasn’t fresh chilled grape juice. It was 6 months of solid fermentation from the previous season at least.

Fire hadn’t been invented yet and they would have had no ay of making a highly concentrated product that was shelf stable.

 

[Ben1445]

Wine yeast is not chametz.

Wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye, leaven/yeast is chametz.

Yeast which is the product of grapes, or its sugars, is not considered chametz (leavened food).

Ah! This is the the very heart of the scribes and lawyers of Jesus day. “Legally, I may do this.” Ironically, the rabbis still debate and work around the law based on some strange perspective that is laughable when said outright.

 

[Ben1445]

Natural fermentation. Jews still use wine made without levin (see chametz) for Passover, but most have adapted to using kosher yeast.

Funny story....if you see birds acting strange good chance there are grapes or (better yet) muscadines near by. They fall and ferment in their skins.

The birds or the grapes?

 

[Walter]

ok now we have a problem

The flesh and blood that gives life in John 6 is not found in the eucharist. the eucharist is a mock and pagan ritual that leads no one to Christ.

Jesus called this bread from heaven a food that whoever ate it they would never die.

Not that we have to continue to eat on a regular basis, and we may not die.

Well, the thing is, there’s precedence back in the Old Testament about consuming the bread and the presence of God being in the bread.

Back then it was figuratively in the Old Testament. It talks about the L’chaim ha-panim, the bread of the presence or the bread of the face. Well, whose presence, whose face? God’s. God’s presence, God’s face. In fact, the book of Leviticus says that whenever the L’chaim ha-panim was in the tabernacle, there had to be a light that was continually lit. Whenever the bread of the presence, the bread of the face was in the tabernacle. And to this day, we have a sanctuary light that’s lit whenever the Eucharist is in the tabernacle. See, so we have some parallels between the Old Testament and the New Testament, which makes perfect sense. Jesus said, “I have not come to abolish the law and the prophets to fulfill them.” So Jesus in the Eucharist is the fulfillment of this idea of the L’chaim ha-panim in the Old Testament.

 

[JonC]

The birds or the grapes?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, the thing is, there’s precedence back in the Old Testament about consuming the bread and the presence of God being in the bread.

Back then it was figuratively in the Old Testament. It talks about the L’chaim ha-panim, the bread of the presence or the bread of the face. Well, whose presence, whose face? God’s. God’s presence, God’s face. In fact, the book of Leviticus says that whenever the L’chaim ha-panim was in the tabernacle, there had to be a light that was continually lit. Whenever the bread of the presence, the bread of the face was in the tabernacle. And to this day, we have a sanctuary light that’s lit whenever the Eucharist is in the tabernacle. See, so we have some parallels between the Old Testament and the New Testament, which makes perfect sense. Jesus said, “I have not come to abolish the law and the prophets to fulfill them.” So Jesus in the Eucharist is the fulfillment of this idea of the L’chaim ha-panim in the Old Testament.

I am not worried about types.. I believe in types. the lords supper. where Jesus said do often in remembrance of me takes care of those types (The lords supper is actually a continuance of the passover mean. Only instead looking to freedom from egypt and the sacrificial lamb, we look back to the cross and the lamb of God.

But again, Jesus said this

John 6: 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Unlike the food he gave them the day before. that they have to keep eating because that food perishes. the food he came to give. one can eat and it will never perish. hence they will not need to continue to eat. it endures forever

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst

again, This food, he called it the bread of life. Whoever partakes will never hunger (because this food endures forever) and they will never thirst (the bread and wine symbolize this spiritual food)

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

again, whoever eats will
1. Never be cast out
2. Will never be lost
3. HAS eternal life
4. WILL (not might) be raised on the last day

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

Again, whoever eats this bread

1. Has everlasting life
2. Never die
3. They will (not might) live forever

This is not found in the eucharistic teaching. Eating the eucharist. or partaking in the lords supper is no different than the children of Israel eating manna.. The must continue to eat. Because if they do not. they will die.. because that food does NOT endure forever.

 

[JonC]

I think graoe juice is tge better choice fir communion. The reason is we are to look after the "weaker brother" in the things we do. Who drinks wine but thinks it is sinful to drink grape juice? Drinking wine is against the conscious for some.