Concerning Romans 9:16

[SavedByGrace]

Another false claim. I never claimed the words “election to salvation” are in the text of Romans 9. The “election” concerns God purpose to demonstrate the “riches of His glory”… concerning both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.

The answer to your spewing nonsense which is everything after the words “if this teaching is true….” is also directly addressed in Romans 9 when the questioner ask “why does He still find fault, who can resist His will?”

If you knew and understood God’s Word, you you not have embarrassed yourself by demonstrating your complete ignorance of the truth that your objection is answered by Paul in this passage.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Can you support that response with scripture?

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Can you support that response with scripture?

peace to you

John 3.16 to 18 destroys the TULI in TULIP

Nothing more to add

Glory be to the Lord for His Infinite Mercy to the entire human race

 

[canadyjd]

….
Nothing more to add
…..

Thank you.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Thank you.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Another false claim. I never claimed the words “election to salvation” are in the text of Romans 9. The “election” concerns God purpose to demonstrate the “riches of His glory”… concerning both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.

The answer to your spewing nonsense which is everything after the words “if this teaching is true….” is also directly addressed in Romans 9 when the questioner ask “why does He still find fault, who can resist His will?”

If you knew and understood God’s Word, you you not have embarrassed yourself by demonstrating your complete ignorance of the truth that your objection is answered by Paul in this passage.

peace to you

The arrogance of this man is beyond words to describe. You can tell he is a calvinist as they think they are the only ones with the higher knowledge to understand the hidden things of God. Does remind me of the Gnostic's.

 

[canadyjd]

Anyone that would claim, “many are saved having never heard the gospel” of Jesus Christ have demonstrated an ignorance of God’s Word that renders them totally unqualified to offer advice on understanding any passage of scripture.

I have repeatedly pointed to scripture to support my beliefs. Some, apparently, cannot come to terms with the truth of God’s Word, so the resort to name calling.

To all those who have engaged in civil discussion about Romans 9, thank you. It is much appreciated.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Anyone that would claim, “many are saved having never heard the gospel” of Jesus Christ have demonstrated an ignorance of God’s Word that renders them totally unqualified to offer advice on understanding any passage of scripture.

I have repeatedly pointed to scripture to support my beliefs. Some, apparently, cannot come to terms with the truth of God’s Word, so the resort to name calling.

To all those who have engaged in civil discussion about Romans 9, thank you. It is much appreciated.

peace to you

So are you saying you have never read Heb 11 or any of the OT. Your comments here just show that you must really not believe that God is sovereign.

Act 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So are you saying you have never read Heb 11 or any of the OT. Your comments here just show that you must really not believe that God is sovereign.

Act 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

are you suggesting that a sinner can be saved without known about Jesus Christ and salvation in Him through Repentance from sins, and Faith in him?

 

[Silverhair]

are you suggesting that a sinner can be saved without known about Jesus Christ and salvation in Him through Repentance from sins, and Faith in him?

Just what the bible tells us. Do you not trust what the Holy Spirit inspired? Are you placing a limit on what our sovereign God can do?

When one seeks God and trusts in Him then if God chooses to save that person would you tell Him can't happen he did not say the right words? God looks at the heart He is not swayed by the words.

I always find it amazing that those that trumpet the authority of God the most are the ones that want to limit His sovereignty.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Just what the bible tells us. Do you not trust what the Holy Spirit inspired? Are you placing a limit on what our sovereign God can do?

When one seeks God and trusts in Him then if God chooses to save that person would you tell Him can't happen he did not say the right words? God looks at the heart He is not swayed by the words.

I always find it amazing that those that trumpet the authority of God the most are the ones that want to limit His sovereignty.

I am not a Calvinist or Reformed in my theology. But, it is very clear to me in the entire 66 Books of the Holy Bible, that salvation is from start to finish the Work of God the Holy Spirit. The Bible is clear that there is NONE who "seeks after God", in and out of themselves (see, Romans 3:10-12), this is a human impossibility! It is God the Holy Spirit, says Jesus Christ, Who must FIRST "convict" the sinner that they are a sinner, and they need Jesus Christ as their Saviour, as Jesus Himself says in John 16:8-10, " And He, when He is come, will convict the world in respect of sin...of sin, because they believe not on Me". When Peter finished his first "sermon" in Acts chapter 2, those who heard him, were "cut to the heart (convicted)" (verse 37), and this made them ask what they needed to do for salvation.

Paul goes into much detail in Romans chapter 10, about the need for preachers to be sent so that the Gospel of salvation can be heard by all, and sinners can get saved.

God has determined to save by the "foolishness of preaching" (1 Corinthians 1:21), to save those who believe in the Message.

It is a monstrous LIE that is being taught by some, that you can be saved and get to heaven, by simply raising your hand after a sermon is preached, where the message does not even call on sinners to repent of their sins and believe in the Saviour, Jesus Christ! This is what Paul calls in Galatians 1, "another gospel", which is in reality no gospel, as it can save no one!

 

[Silverhair]

I am not a Calvinist or Reformed in my theology. But, it is very clear to me in the entire 66 Books of the Holy Bible, that salvation is from start to finish the Work of God the Holy Spirit. The Bible is clear that there is NONE who "seeks after God", in and out of themselves (see, Romans 3:10-12), this is a human impossibility! It is God the Holy Spirit, says Jesus Christ, Who must FIRST "convict" the sinner that they are a sinner, and they need Jesus Christ as their Saviour, as Jesus Himself says in John 16:8-10, " And He, when He is come, will convict the world in respect of sin...of sin, because they believe not on Me". When Peter finished his first "sermon" in Acts chapter 2, those who heard him, were "cut to the heart (convicted)" (verse 37), and this made them ask what they needed to do for salvation.

Paul goes into much detail in Romans chapter 10, about the need for preachers to be sent so that the Gospel of salvation can be heard by all, and sinners can get saved.

God has determined to save by the "foolishness of preaching" (1 Corinthians 1:21), to save those who believe in the Message.

It is a monstrous LIE that is being taught by some, that you can be saved and get to heaven, by simply raising your hand after a sermon is preached, where the message does not even call on sinners to repent of their sins and believe in the Saviour, Jesus Christ! This is what Paul calls in Galatians 1, "another gospel", which is in reality no gospel, as it can save no one!

Those that hear the gospel message and receive it will be saved those that reject the message will be lost. I have no problem with those truths.
What I am saying is that for those that have never heard the gospel message that trust in God through the conviction of the Holy Spirit or His creation and seek Him will be judge for what they know. God's desire is for all to be saved so I am not willing to limit what He can do.

As I said God looks at the heart and is not swayed by the words. I do find it strange that you would say no one will seek when we are told to seek God. What we do know is that no one will seek God continuously, not even the saved. Which is what Rom 3:11 is telling us.

 

[SavedByGrace]

What I am saying is that for those that have never heard the gospel message that trust in God through the conviction of the Holy Spirit or His creation and seek Him will be judge for what they know

You can be sure, that if anyone is truly "seeking" the Lord of the Bible, that God will make sure that they were presented with the Gospel Message, as He did with Cornelius in Acts chapter 10, who was, "a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God" (verse 2). Peter was sent to him, and he and his house who heard the Gospel, were saved! And in chapter 16, we have Lydia, "who was a worshiper of God" (14), whose heart the Lord "opened" so that she could understand what was preached. These, and many others, who are true "seekers" of the Lord, the Lord made sure heard the Gospel, and they believed and were saved

 

[Silverhair]

You can be sure, that if anyone is truly "seeking" the Lord of the Bible, that God will make sure that they were presented with the Gospel Message, as He did with Cornelius in Acts chapter 10, who was, "a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God" (verse 2). Peter was sent to him, and he and his house who heard the Gospel, were saved! And in chapter 16, we have Lydia, "who was a worshiper of God" (14), whose heart the Lord "opened" so that she could understand what was preached. These, and many others, who are true "seekers" of the Lord, the Lord made sure heard the Gospel, and they believed and were saved

So you are saying that God is limited in why He will show His grace to those that seek Him. If you want to limit God that is your choice. Salvation is a work of God and since I believe that He created the world I also think that He can save those that truly seek Him. Even those that have never heard of Christ.

In the OT they trusted in God, correct. Is Jesus Christ not God, do we not pray in the name, not names, of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? I just think it is a good idea to let God be God.

FYI I did not think you were a calvinist.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So you are saying that God is limited in why He will show His grace to those that seek Him. If you want to limit God that is your choice. Salvation is a work of God and since I believe that He created the world I also think that He can save those that truly seek Him. Even those that have never heard of Christ.

In the OT they trusted in God, correct. Is Jesus Christ not God, do we not pray in the name, not names, of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? I just think it is a good idea to let God be God.

FYI I did not think you were a calvinist.

Can you explain how a Wretched hell bound sinner can by themselves seek God for salvation

 

[Van]

Please attempt to read a little more carefully what I post. I didn’t say YOU claimed they were granting themselves election.

You did say the Romans 9:16 supported the idea that folks could seek God for salvation which you thought disproved total depravity.

I corrected your misunderstanding of the passage by explaining Romans 9:16 isn’t talking about salvation, but rather election.

Therefore, understanding the context, it doesn’t depend on the man who wills or the man who runs (concerning election) but on God who has mercy.

As I stated before, your hatred of the doctrines of grace blind you to the truth of scripture. Every passage, it seems, can be twisted into an anti-doctrines of grace diatribe.

BTW, nothing wrong with pork and beans They are good for the heart, I hear.

peace to you

Once more obfuscation rather than discussion of scripture.

Some think a person is elected for salvation and not at that time transferred into Christ spiritually. They cannot seem to grasp 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says were are chosen through (or by means of) being set apart by the Holy Spirit.

I did say Romans 9:16 says the lost can will and work to obtain salvation, but God's election for salvation does not depend on their effort or merit, but on God alone.

I hate false doctrine, and those that believe false doctrine are blinded by that false doctrine, such as "total spiritual inability."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Some think a person is elected for salvation and not at that time transferred into Christ spiritually. They cannot seem to grasp 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says were are chosen through (or by means of) being set apart by the Holy Spirit.

actually, instead of the reading, "ap' archēs" (from the beginning); there is an equally old and well attested reading, "aparchēn" (First-Fruits - earliest converts). note the slight difference between the two.

in fact, Paul uses this latter phrase a few times, 1Co_15:20, 1Co_15:23; 1Co_16:15; Rom_8:23; Rom_11:16; Rom_16:5

 

[Van]

actually, instead of the reading, "ap' archēs" (from the beginning); there is an equally old and well attested reading, "aparchēn" (First-Fruits - earliest converts). note the slight difference between the two.

in fact, Paul uses this latter phrase a few times, 1Co_15:20, 1Co_15:23; 1Co_16:15; Rom_8:23; Rom_11:16; Rom_16:5

But this variant has nothing to do with the topic. From the beginning or As first fruits simply describe the purpose of the election for salvation. They do not change "God chose us for salvation (from the beginning or as first fruits) through sanctification by the Spirit (setting the chosen person apart into Christ's body) on the basis of crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have made the following statement….

… If God responds to something mankind does and then makes them “elect”, that is a works based salvation.

There is no scripture to support this. One cannot apply the "works" label to just whatever we want. works in scripture is always a reference to the Old Testament laws. If God has decided that we must respond to what he has both provided and made available to all then works doesn't come into play. Your argument is weak at best.

 

[canadyjd]

There is no scripture to support this. One cannot apply the "works" label to just whatever we want. works in scripture is always a reference to the Old Testament laws. If God has decided that we must respond to what he has both provided and made available to all then works doesn't come into play. Your argument is weak at best.

Thanks for responding. You are certainly correct that “works”, in NT scripture, is referring works of the OT Law leading to a right relationship with God.

In that sense, my statement someone making themselves “elect” by demonstrating belief is a “works based” salvation is inaccurate.

I stand corrected.

The focus of Romans 9:16 (all of chapter 9, really) is how someone becomes “elect”. It does not depend on the will or their works, but on God who decides to have mercy and compassion upon whom He choses.

The doctrine that faith comes prior to election is contrary to this passage.

peace to you