Conditional Election

[Van]

SPIRITUAL INABILITY
Can some individuals choose to believe in Christ, because they are drawn by Christ’s powerful and convicting gospel and the testimony of spirit filled believers, or are we all so depraved and blinded by our sinful state that we cannot choose to believe in Christ without being compelled by irresistible grace? People, who accept the doctrine of spiritual inability and bondage to sin, site the following passages of scripture. But, as we shall see, the passages prove no such point. Spiritual inability is an unnecessary doctrine because God grants us mercy based on His sovereign acceptance of our faith and sets us apart (chooses us).
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Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

This verse is part of a passage (13:20-27) that warns of punishment, possibly the Babylonian captivity, as a consequence of continuing to sin. In context, this verse teaches that sin has consequences including potentially being trapped in habitual sin.
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Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure, who can understand it.

Jeremiah is making two points here. One, that only the Lord can discern the true heart of man, and two, the heart’s depravity is beyond a manmade cure, only by trusting in the Lord will a man be truly blessed.
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John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because there deeds were evil.

This verse says that if you choose not to believe in Jesus, it is because you love evil, not that you are unable to love Jesus.
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John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and the one that comes to me I will certainly not cast out.

This verse does not indicate how the Father gives those who come to Christ. But note that “come to Me” equates with spiritually entering Christ, because Christ says He will not cast them out. Therefore the idea is God putting individuals whose faith He credited as righteousness into Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit. So this verse is not addressing coming to faith, but rather what God does after we come to faith.

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John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Only those drawn can come to Jesus, not all those drawn come to Jesus. The phrase I will raise him up refers to those who come to Me, not to those drawn.

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John 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless granted him from the Father.

This verse teaches that God must credit our faith in Christ as righteousness in order that God would put us spiritually in Christ..
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John 8:34 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

This passage is saying that Jesus can set us free from our slavery to sin, not that Jesus cannot set us free because we cannot accept him. The doctrine of spiritual inability turns this passage on its head, saying it means the opposite of the author’s clear intent. At the end of the discourse where Jesus tells the Jews who were rejecting Him, that they did not listen to Him because they listened to the lies of the devil, Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word (accepts my gospel) he shall never see death.” Jesus is teaching opportunity not futility.
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Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a women named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

How did God “open her heart”? The answer from the text is that because she was a worshiper of God, having listened to God and learned from God through the words of the prophets and having accepted the One who sent Him, she was enabled to accept Jesus. Simply put, if you reject God your heart will not be open to Jesus ( See 2 Timothy 3:15).
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Acts 26:18 (I am sending you) "to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me."

Contrary to supporting spiritual inability, this verse supports the position that missionaries filled with the Holy Spirit, are used by God to explain the gospel so that others will be "sanctified by faith in Me."
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Romans 3:10-11 As it is written, “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

This is a typical passage used to “prove” that the bible teaches we cannot place our faith in Christ unless we experience the “inner call” whereby God influences us so we can have faith. But, when you look at the passage, none of that is being taught! Paul is making the case that everyone (Jew and Gentile) is under sin. There is no one righteous (for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the solution is at hand; the righteousness of God has been manifested through faith in Jesus Christ for ALL those who believe. (Paraphrase of Romans 3:19-22). In summary, the passage teaches that all have sinned and turned aside from God, so no one seeks God when sinning or when doing filthy rag works of righteousness, but through faith in Christ we can obtain the righteousness of God.
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Romans 8:6-8 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile to God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in flesh cannot please God.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

In this passage Paul tells Timothy, the Lord’s servant, to avoid quarrels and gently instruct, knowing that each potential convert must turn to God on his own and not be strong armed into obedience. God "grants" repentance by revealing His will through scripture and Spirit filled witnesses, which provides the opportunity and direction we turn when we repent. Giving God the credit for repentance and salvation is not saying God individually controls each decision for Christ, but simply acknowledges that God’s grace in sending His Son rightly deserves all the credit.

Another passage used to support the concept of Total Depravity is the parable of the Sower, found in Matthew 13:3-23. But an analysis of the parable indicates:

The reason the people do not understand the seed sown by the side of the road is that evil takes it away. So if you love darkness, rather than light, you will not understand the gospel. Because man’s heart is dull but not inoperative, some see the light, repent and choose to serve God. On the other hand, because of the blinding influence of sin, many do not see the light. These are the people who do not respond to the gospel.

Then we have the people who initially accept the gospel, but whose hearts are like rocky ground, and because these people are not rooted in the Word, their commitment to Christ is superficial and when hardship and difficulty arises, when they actually must give up some of their treasured rocks (wealth, security, comfort) they fall away. Again, indicating choice, and an opportunity to grow in understanding of the true gospel, which includes suffering and hardship because "all who proclaim the name of Jesus will be persecuted."

Finally we have the people ensnared in bad company; who have the gospel choked out of them. But if these new believers get incorporated into a fellowship of believers; people that can disciple them and encourage them and strengthen them, they can choose to hoe their landscape and eliminate the influences that are choking their development as Christians.

In summary, turn from evil, become rooted in the word and form fellowships with other Christians or the seed of the Gospel may not take root. But if we choose to place are faith in Christ, and lean not on our own understanding, God has promised to grant us salvation by grace through faith. We must understand that the concerns of this world, the false appeal of riches or other desires of the flesh can cause us to fall away before the seed of the Gospel takes root. Even after we are saved, we can quench the Spirit by disobedience and become unfruitful. But if we understand the gospel and make a steadfast commitment to Christ, we will bear fruit and become conformed to the image of Christ. And it is up to fellow believers and ourselves to cultivate the lost, from the children in our families to the stranger on the street, teaching, explaining and instructing them to provide an opportunity to grasp hold of the true gospel of Christ through which is salvation. Jesus is teaching us of the necessity of an effective outer call, not that the lost are so helplessly depraved they need a fictitious inner call.

[continued on next post]

 

[Van]

And finally, some use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, found in Luke 16:19-31 in support of spiritual inability. They say that Abraham would have sent a messenger if the rich man’s brothers were able to listen to the gospel. But, if you study the passage, the opposite truth is being taught. Jesus is saying that those who have reached eternity had a choice, and it was a mistake for them to love the world and serve mammon, rather than God.

The rich man thought his brothers would benefit from a warning, so the one who served mammon thought he had made a choice and his brothers were making their choice. He no longer saw through a glass darkly so his insight is compelling.

Abraham did not send a messenger from the dead because he said they would not listen. The point of the parable is that being forewarned we should not make the same mistake and reject Christ. We should not miss the opportunity while it exists, while we are alive, to listen to Moses and the Prophets and Christ, our messenger from the dead.

To assert that Christ was teaching that Abraham did not send the messenger from the dead, as Christ surely is, because we are unable to listen to the gospel and gladly receive it is bogus. It turns the illustration on its head.

Look at Luke 16:13, Christ is summarizing the illustration of the unrighteous steward, who made friends with the unrighteous by the unrighteous use of mammon (money). His point was that we should be righteous to make friends with the righteous, for you cannot serve God and mammon. Christ was teaching us how to serve God, not that we are unable to serve God. He is saying listen to the prophets and the messenger from the dead; serve God and not unrighteousness. Neither the rich man, nor his brothers were aware of the fate that awaited them because they did not listen to the prophets, instead they chose to serve mammon. In summary, Jesus is teaching that people reject Christ because they are unwilling; they choose instead to go their own way. God chose to raise Jesus from the dead to be a messenger from the dead to penetrate the veil of depravity by the force of His gospel. Teachers of the word should not miss any opportunity to cultivate the lost with the word of God through example, instruction, and prayer such that they will choose to listen to our messenger from the dead.

Another premise used to support Spiritual Inability is that since we are dead in our trespasses, we are unable to respond to the outward call of God. This pushes the analogy past its purpose. "Dead" in context means separated from God, and totally unable through works to bridge the gap and attain life eternal. Lets look at some passages.

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Ephesians 2:1 says, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."

Clearly this is using dead in a metaphorical sense, meaning you were spiritually dead in your sins. And being dead implies inability, so it would seem to follow that being spiritually dead implies spiritual inability. But what is the inability? Calvinists say it means the inability to seek or reach out or understand or accept spiritual things such as the gospel of Christ. Because we are spiritually dead, we are unable to believe in Jesus. This view is supported by a distorted understanding of Romans 3:10-11. On the other hand, the implication of being spiritually dead might only apply to the inability to reach God through works because sin creates a separation that we are unable to bridge by works.
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Matthew 7:14 says, "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life and few are those who find it."

Jesus is making several points here, but lets focus on a few of them: It is possible to find the way that leads to life, but it is easier to follow the broad way to destruction. We are depraved but not totally disabled. Although we are dead, we can find the way to life. And the way is through faith and not by works for not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father (and places his or her faith in God and His Christ) will enter the kingdom. Here we see also that those in Christ produce good fruit, which proves they are of God (Matthew 7:18 ).
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Titus 3:5-7 says, "He saved us not on the basis of deeds, which we have done in righteousness (our filthy rags), but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, (baptizing us into Christ) and renewing by the Holy Spirit (conforming us to the image of Christ) who He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."(The parenthetical insertions are mine and not part of the inspired text)

Here we see that we are neither saved by our deeds of righteousness, nor by our faith alone, but by His mercy and grace. Therefore our faith could be the best we could muster in our depraved state, and still God could accept it, and bless it to our salvation. If our faith only touched our mind, intellectual accent, scripture indicates that is not what God demands, for He judges the heart. Ruth provides an example of a heart-felt commitment. Here is what the lady chose to do and say,
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"Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God" (Ruth 1:16).

Love can overcome depravity sufficient for salvation because love "bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things", and love never fails. (1 Corinthians 13:7).
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Isaiah 64:6-7 says, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like filthy garments, and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. And there is no one who calls on Thy name, who rouses himself to take hold of Thee, for Thou has hidden Thy face from us and hast delivered us into the power of our iniquities."

Isaiah is speaking about the circumstances of his time, addressing the people of his audience, and so to assert that no one (all of mankind from creation to the end of days) is able to call upon the name of the Lord without help (from an inner call in addition to the outer call) is invalid. Clearly the capability to stir oneself and call upon the name of the Lord at some other time is in view. (See Isaiah 65:8-10 where the Lord refers to my people who seek me.)
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Romans 11:13-15 says, "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen (Jews) and save some of them. For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will acceptance be but life from dead."

[continued on next post]

 

[Van]

Paul makes a compelling case against spiritual inability in this passage. Jews, whose hearts were partially hardened to facilitate bringing the gospel to the Gentiles, could still be moved to jealousy, a natural and depraved reaction that could be used to provide an opening for the gospel which could lead the depraved and partially hard hearted to accept the gospel.

Being Spiritually dead means we are separated from God and unable to reach God by our works. Calvinists extrapolate this biblical truth and say, we are unable to seek God or to want to seek God. However, Romans 9: 16 proves that the unsaved can seek God through intellect (a man that wills) and by works (a man that runs.) So we cannot reach God by our works or our will. God has mercy of those of his choosing and saves them. But the other truth, that some spiritually dead men seek God through works to no available and others seek God through faith is inescapable. Spiritually dead men are able to seek God and some are willing to seek God, and those that seek God through faith and not works find the narrow path that leads to life.

The defense of the Calvinists conception of Spiritual Inability, which has little actual support in scripture, has caused some to bend the Word of God to create the impression that the fallacy is taught by scripture. Here is a typical avalanche of assertions, none valid:

"God’s curse of mankind created spiritual inability (Psalm 50:21, Job 11:7-8 )." First neither of these verses connects the fall with the asserted inability. The unstated assumption is that before the fall we had spiritual ability and then lost it. What scripture actually says is that Adam’s sin brought death (Romans 5:12). If this were in whole or in part spiritual death (loss of Adam and Eve’s indwelt Holy Spirit and corruption of their human spirit due to the separation from God) spiritual discernment would be greatly diminished, but not necessarily eliminated.

Second, Psalm 50:21 says that the wicked (verse 16) thought, through flawed discernment, that God was like the wicked because God had kept silent and silence suggests tacit approval of wrongdoing. But God did not remain silent. So rather than proving the point of total spiritual inability, the verse proves the opposite. In verse 22, God asks those that forget God, to consider that offering sacrifices honors God. Clearly the wayward are being spoken to and the implication is that communication is taking place. Diminished spiritual discernment can be overcome by hearing the word of God, even though it might take several communications for one man plants the seed and another waters. We are sinners, the Law teaches us that we are sinners, and because we are able to grasp our depravity, we are convicted and recognize that we need forgiveness. Which leads us to Christ. Spiritual inability undermines the whole purpose of the Law.

But lets move on to the next passage, Job 11:7-8. This is a typical argument, God says that mankind cannot understand fully the characteristics of God, and this is used in an unwarranted extrapolation as support for the inability to understand sufficiently to grasp our depravity and God’s majesty.

The human spirit, the power that animates our physical life, the spiritual essence that faces paradise or Hades, was made in the image of God. When our human spirit departs the body, the body dies. Written into our nature, our human spirit in the likeness of God, is an awareness of the infinite and a yearning or aspiration for the divine (Romans 1:18-23). Fallen and separated from God, this naturally leads only in the general direction of God, but more often than not this nature is betrayed by our fallen state into idolatry. Be that as it may, our condition clearly indicates the concept of total depravity is bogus, for we strive toward the divine and some of us our drawn by the Father’s truth in His word.

The problem with the bumper sticker theology of “God is everything, man is nothing” is that God created man for a purpose and that purpose will not be turned aside by a bogus theology of man. We can place our faith, as depraved as it may be, in Jesus and fulfill our purpose, which is to glorify God.

The next assertion is that John 3:3 (“Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”) indicates the inability to “see” spiritual things, and by inference that we cannot understand spiritual things. But what the verse says is that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, so Jesus is teaching the inability to enter God’s Kingdom unless we are saved, and this is distorted by implication to say we cannot understand spiritual things. The argument from John 3:3 is an utterly bogus defense of an erroneous doctrine in my opinion. Returning to Ephesians 2:1, note that while "dead" in our sins (violation of God’s holy requirements, knowingly or unknowingly, volitionally or as a consequence of being “in Adam”) we are also "dead" in our trespasses (disobedient and willful trespasses of God’s known holy requirements.) We choose to violate the revealed Law of God, which indicates an ability to discern spiritual requirements and reject them.

Contrary to the false doctrine of Spiritual Inability, Moses taught that people were capable of choosing righteousness (Deuteronomy 30:15-20). And Isaiah recognized the same truth when he said a youth, upon reaching a certain age, will know to refuse evil and choose good (Isaiah 7:15).

Spiritual Inability is a false and unnecessary doctrine. The flawed logic stack looks like this: Since God chose us individually before the foundation of the world; He had to compel us during our lifetime with an inner irresistible call to turn to God. To preclude others from accepting the outward call of the gospel, spiritual inability had to asserted. However, if God only chose us corporately, whoever would trust in Christ, before the foundation of the world, then individual pre-selection becomes an unnecessary inference. If individual pre-selection is unnecessary, then irresistible grace becomes unnecessary. And if irresistible grace, the inner call, is unnecessary, then spiritual inability, the doctrine of Total Depravity, becomes unnecessary. Therefore, when you look at the supposed supporting scriptures for the unnecessary inference of spiritual inability, the lack of support for the false doctrine is a straightforward conclusion.

 

[Aaron]

God grants us mercy based on His sovereign acceptance of our faith and sets us apart (chooses us).

IOW, God sovereignly chooses those of a certain natural quality.

Not going to respond to every point in this hatchet job on the Scriptures. A response to one point is sufficient to illuminate your myopia:

Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

This verse is part of a passage (13:20-27) that warns of punishment, possibly the Babylonian captivity, as a consequence of continuing to sin. In context, this verse teaches that sin has consequences including potentially being trapped in habitual sin.

Quite the contrary. It is describing the natural state of men, for there is none that doeth good.

 

[Winman]

IOW, God sovereignly chooses those of a certain natural quality.

Not going to respond to every point in this hatchet job on the Scriptures. A response to one point is sufficient to illuminate your myopia:

Quite the contrary. It is describing the natural state of men, for there is none that doeth good.

This interpretation of Jeremiah 13:23 is absurd. If anything, Jeremiah would be giving these sinful Jews the PERFECT EXCUSE for their sin.

Jeremiah- Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Jews- Yeah, well what did you expect Jeremiah? God cursed Adam so that all his offspring would be born with a sinful nature that MUST sin. How can you expect us to do good? You yourself ask if an Ethiopian can change his skin, or a leopard can change his spots, how then can we do good?

So, you see, this interpretation of yours is absolutely absurd and would give every sinner everywhere the perfect excuse for sin.

In fact, it would blame God, for who gave the Ethiopian his black skin? And who gave the leopard his spots?

The problem is that folks listen to false interpretations of scripture and do not give serious thought to scripture itself. This is a perfect example, this verse has been misinterpreted in an attempt to support Total Inability. It does no such thing, the word "accustomed" means a learned behavior. We are not born sinners, we LEARN to sin from those around us.

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Our "vain conversation" is our sinful behavior or lifestyle, scripture says it was "received by TRADITION from our fathers". Jeremiah 13:23 is saying the same thing, sin is a LEARNED behavior.

Jeremiah is saying that the Jews have practiced sin so long that it has become second nature to them, and that it has become almost impossible to repent, AS IF they were born that way. He is not actually saying they were born that way.

This verse actually REFUTES Total Inability if understood properly.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Our "vain conversation" is our sinful behavior or lifestyle, scripture says it was "received by TRADITION from our fathers". Jeremiah 13:23 is saying the same thing, sin is a LEARNED behavior.

Wow- so you're saying that we could just educate sin out of existence then?

Horrid, just horrid theology. May God help you to see the error of your ways. Sin is not learned behavior. It is innate and natural behavior.

Psalm 58:3- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ephesians 2:3- Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Romans 5:19- For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Matthew 12:34- You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Matthew 15:18,19- But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

To proclaim that sin is a learned behavior denies nearly everything that the Scripture teaches about the nature of man and the nature of salvation.

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

"Name callin's a handy thing for some, Mark. They smack a label on somebody or something and that's it as far as they're concerned. It's kind of a special way of hating because they don't take the trouble to understand."

- Lucas McCain

Maxdeaf's signature

In other words like any good politician, the good Dean was for it before he was against it. Pretty typical of the KJVO at any cost mindset.

Maxdeaf's hypocrisy!:tonofbricks:

 

[preacher4truth]

When ones doctrine (winmans specifically) is unScriptural concerning the nature of man and sin everything else crumbles in said doctrine.

Ephesians 2:3:

'...by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind'. ESV

'...and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others'. KJV

KJV gets the translation incorrect, or at the least incomplete. The word λοιποί 'loipoi' means 'the rest, remnant, remainder, the rest of things that remain' and in context this is speaking of all of mankind.

But the thing is you'll go pull a verse out of context to disprove another verse. That's called wresting Scripture and is not rightly handling the Word of truth. Scripture doesn't contradict itself, but this is exactly what you'll do to prove a point, an erroneous point nonetheless. The problem is you misinterpret things on a consistent basis and misapply truth.

winman, according to you even a dog has faith, and since Jesus said 'the ninety and nine which need no repentance' you've claimed 'See, some don't need repentance Jesus said it and I believe Jesus' words over yours!' (in essence you said this, not going to bother looking up this nonsense for the exact quote). This is another example of your misunderstanding of the plight of all of mankind.

Proper interpretation of Scripture completely refutes your misapplication of 'the ninety and nine' and you've missed the entire meaning of Jesus words. You know what He said but not what He meant, and have you've applied your dreadful misinterpretation and contradiction of Scripture as a proof text to support your philosophy.

These things you do consistently.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Maxdeaf's signature




Maxdeaf's hypocrisy!:tonofbricks:

Ach,

FYI, cross posting across threads is against BB policy. Please comment in the correct thread. Thanks.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wow- so you're saying that we could just educate sin out of existence then?

Horrid, just horrid theology. May God help you to see the error of your ways. Sin is not learned behavior. It is innate and natural behavior.

Psalm 58:3- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ephesians 2:3- Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Romans 5:19- For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Matthew 12:34- You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Matthew 15:18,19- But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

To proclaim that sin is a learned behavior denies nearly everything that the Scripture teaches about the nature of man and the nature of salvation.

Thank you, thank you, thank you:thumbs: Its cracked pot theology!

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

When ones doctrine (winmans specifically) is unScriptural concerning the nature of man and sin everything else crumbles in said doctrine.

Ephesians 2:3:

'...by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind'. ESV

'...and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others'. KJV

KJV gets the translation incorrect, or at the least incomplete. The word λοιποί 'loipoi' means 'the rest, remnant, remainder, the rest of things that remain' and in context this is speaking of all of mankind.

B

Matthew 27:49 in the ESV " οἱ δὲ λοιποὶ ἔλεγον ἄφες ἴδωμεν εἰ ἔρχεται Ἠλίας σώσων αὐτόν"

"But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him."

Gotta keep ya honest! :thumbs:

 

[Van]

IOW, God sovereignly chooses those of a certain natural quality.

Not going to respond to every point in this hatchet job on the Scriptures. A response to one point is sufficient to illuminate your myopia:

Quite the contrary. It is describing the natural state of men, for there is none that doeth good.

Folks, here is yet another Calvinist post, misrepresenting his opponent, dismissing scripture citations as a hatchet job, and then ignoring what the scripture says.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

This verse is part of a passage (13:20-27) that warns of punishment, possibly the Babylonian captivity, as a consequence of continuing to sin. In context, this verse teaches that sin has consequences including potentially being trapped in habitual sin.

Ignoring the scripture that says being accustomed to doing evil traps a person in habitual sin, The Calvinist claims "none who do good," means none who do good "at any time." They take away from one verse and add to another to twist scripture into something that conforms to their man-made doctrine. LOL

 

[Mexdeaf]

Folks, here is yet another Calvinist post, misrepresenting his opponent, dismissing scripture citations as a hatchet job, and then ignoring what the scripture says.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard his spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

This verse is part of a passage (13:20-27) that warns of punishment, possibly the Babylonian captivity, as a consequence of continuing to sin. In context, this verse teaches that sin has consequences including potentially being trapped in habitual sin.

Ignoring the scripture that says being accustomed to doing evil traps a person in habitual sin, The Calvinist claims "none who do good," means none who do good "at any time." They take away from one verse and add to another to twist scripture into something that conforms to their man-made doctrine. LOL

Twisting the Scripture to attempt to prove a point as you have done, is indeed a hatchet job. I truly hope that you are not a pastor because if you are, I fear for the souls of those who hear you.

Now let the name-calling begin. I'm a big boy and I can take it.

 

[Winman]

Wow- so you're saying that we could just educate sin out of existence then?

No, I'm saying what scripture says, that we received our vain conversation or behavior by tradition from our fathers.

Horrid, just horrid theology. May God help you to see the error of your ways. Sin is not learned behavior. It is innate and natural behavior.

Wow, a Calvinist who absolutely depends on Total Inability disagrees, what a shock!

Psalm 58:3- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Been over this verse a dozen times, if you take it as literal, then you have to take the following verses as literal and believe babies are poisonous like an adder, have huge teeth like a young lion, melt like snails, and believe that David was praying for all babies everywhere to pass away. Utter nonsense. No sane person would develop doctrine from hyperbole.

Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This verse describes David's mother, not all men. If I said "in drunkedness my father beat me, in anger he whipped me" no person alive would believe it was describing me but my father.

Ephesians 2:3- Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

This scripture says we were dead in trespasses and sins wherein we WALKED. It does not say we are born that way, in fact, newborn children cannot walk. And nature often means a learned lifestyle, such as Galatians 2:15.

Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

If your view is correct (it isn't), this scripture would be saying that Jews are not born with a sin nature.

Paul himself said the Gentiles "by nature" do the things contained in the law.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

I have yet to see a Calvinist preach this verse. :laugh:

Romans 5:19- For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

This has been discussed as well, if you teach that Adam's judgment is unconditionally imputed to all men, then you MUST believe that the righteousness Jesus brought is unconditionally imputed to all men. This would be universalism which proves your view is error.

We must conditionally sin as Adam sinned to be imputed sinners, as we must conditionally believe as Jesus believed to be imputed righteous.

Matthew 12:34- You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

This does not say these men were born evil, you read that into scripture when it is not there.

Matthew 15:18,19- But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

Again, not one word that says these persons were born this way.

To proclaim that sin is a learned behavior denies nearly everything that the Scripture teaches about the nature of man and the nature of salvation.

I didn't say it, the word of God said it. I showed two verses that showed sin is learned behavior.

You claim babies are born speaking lies, OK, what language do they speak? Babies ALWAYS speak the exact same language as their parents!! No baby born to English speaking parents speaks Spanish or any other language, showing their language is learned from their parents. And if they lie, they lie in the same language as their parents, and after they have heard their parents lie many times. It is LEARNED.

 

[Mexdeaf]

You claim babies are born speaking lies, OK, what language do they speak? Babies ALWAYS speak the exact same language as their parents!! No baby born to English speaking parents speaks Spanish or another language, showing their language is learned from their parents. And if the lie, they lie in the same language as their parents, and after they have heard their parents lie many times. It is LEARNED.

Babies lie all the time. You must not have had kids or you would know this.

And I'm not going to waste any more time trying to set you straight- if the Scriptures teaching that we are born as sinner as a result of Adam's sin are not plain enough for you then I have nothing else to offer.

 

[Van]

Twisting the Scripture to attempt to prove a point as you have done, is indeed a hatchet job. I truly hope that you are not a pastor because if you are, I fear for the souls of those who hear you.

Now let the name-calling begin. I'm a big boy and I can take it.

Yet another Calvinist post, devoid of content, but full of disparagement. This is their practice aimed at changing the subject from Conditional election to anything other than scripture. Scripture teaches in verse after verse, God chooses us for salvation through faith in the truth.

 

[Winman]

Babies lie all the time. You must not have had kids or you would know this.

I only have EIGHT children. How many do you have?

And I'm not going to waste any more time trying to set you straight- if the Scriptures teaching that we are born as sinner as a result of Adam's sin are not plain enough for you then I have nothing else to offer.

There is no verse of scripture that says men are born sinners. Yes, there is scripture that says men go astray quickly in sin soon after they are born, but the word "astray" itself shows men are not originally lost, and are not originally sinners.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter said we were as sheep going astray, just as Jesus described in Luke 15. Peter then says we are RETURNED to Jesus. This proves we are not born sinners, and we are not born lost. If we were born sinners separated from God, then it could NEVER be said we are RETURNED to Jesus, and yet that is exactly what Peter says.

In Luke 15, Jesus tells three parables that all describe lost sinners who repent. None were originally lost, the lost sheep was originally part of the shepherd's flock and not lost, the silver piece was originally in the possession of the woman and not lost, and the father originally had two sons. It was only when the prodigal son knowingly and willingly rejected his father and went out in sin that he became "lost" and "dead". When he repented, twice Jesus said he was "alive again", proving he was not originally a sinner or lost.

It you want to deny scripture to hold to your man-made doctrine, that is your choice, but I would recommend against it.

 

[Aaron]

Folks, here is yet another Calvinist post, misrepresenting his opponent,

Not a misrepresentation. If one's election is on the basis for any act or attitude, response, assent or disposition, then you are saying God elects one who possesses by nature a certain quality. You cannot escape it. You are saying the Ethiopian can change his skin.

The Calvinist says God's election is unconditional. All are equal in acts, attitudes, responses and assents. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. There is no criterion by which one can qualify for God's mercy.

dismissing scripture citations as a hatchet job,

No, not the citations, just your annotations.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I only have EIGHT children. How many do you have?




There is no verse of scripture that says men are born sinners. Yes, there is scripture that says men go astray quickly in sin soon after they are born, but the word "astray" itself shows men are not originally lost, and are not originally sinners.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter said we were as sheep going astray, just as Jesus described in Luke 15. Peter then says we are RETURNED to Jesus. This proves we are not born sinners, and we are not born lost. If we were born sinners separated from God, then it could NEVER be said we are RETURNED to Jesus, and yet that is exactly what Peter says.

In Luke 15, Jesus tells three parables that all describe lost sinners who repent. None were originally lost, the lost sheep was originally part of the shepherd's flock and not lost, the silver piece was originally in the possession of the woman and not lost, and the father originally had two sons. It was only when the prodigal son knowingly and willingly rejected his father and went out in sin that he became "lost" and "dead". When he repented, twice Jesus said he was "alive again", proving he was not originally a sinner or lost.

It you want to deny scripture to hold to your man-made doctrine, that is your choice, but I would recommend against it.

I'll hold to Scripture instead of trying to explain it away, thanks. No man-made doctrine there, although your interpretation and homiletics are highly suspect.

 

[Mexdeaf]

There is no criterion by which one can qualify for God's mercy.

Amen - we are not worthy.