Conditional Election

[Winman]

You were right the first time. Here, I'll prove it.

Could you make the decision at this point to believe otherwise, and truly believe it in your heart?

Nope. One's faith is not a matter of his will.

My belief is shaped by scripture. If I were only exposed to certain Reformed proof texts and teaching, I would very likely believe just as you do.

I did not develop my beliefs from reading creeds like the Westminster Confession of Faith or Calvin's Institutes. As a young Christian I did not know better and pretty much believed what I was told. But as the years went by and I did more personal study, I noticed much scripture that did not agree with Original Sin and other common doctrine. I would study these scriptures carefully and ask God to help me understand correct doctrine. Over the years my beliefs changed.

Now, if you could show me scripture that absolutely supports Original Sin or Calvinism, I would believe it. Scripture is my authority.

That said, I have looked at the scriptures presented as proof texts for these doctrines and do not believe they support OS or Calvinism at all. You would have to come up with something new and pretty special to change my views now. I don't see it happening.

 

[preacher4truth]

My belief is shaped by scripture.

Not even close.

Your beliefs are shaped by your misinterpretations and misapplications of Scripture.

You've been shown these things incessantly and yet continue upon your unsustainable path.

 

[Aaron]

My belief is shaped by scripture.

By your understanding thereof. No one is disputing that. What is being disputed is the role your will plays therein.

You could no sooner believe other than you do than you could believe in Santa Claus. You either understand and believe what you hear, or you do not.

Your will is not free.

 

[preacher4truth]

The lost are under the spirit of bondage, yet some who claim salvation claim this isn't so, and that their will was free.

Not to mention they were also allegedly, according to their own testimony, which is contrary to His, not of those mentioned in Romans 3, and were instead seeking God, doing good &c.

Yeah sure. Something is amiss.

 

[Winman]

By your understanding thereof. No one is disputing that. What is being disputed is the role your will plays therein.

You could no sooner believe other than you do than you could believe in Santa Claus. You either understand and believe what you hear, or you do not.

Your will is not free.

I believed differently in the past, because I had been taught to believe a certain way. Later, when I knew more of the scriptures I changed my belief.

My will is to understand scripture for what it says. If it was my will to maintain a particular theology, I could choose to reject scripture that refutes it. You should understand exactly what I am saying.

 

[Aaron]

. . . I changed my belief.

Your belief was changed, yes, but you didn't change it.

 

[Winman]

Your belief was changed, yes, but you didn't change it.

Believe whatever you want.

 

[saturneptune]

Your belief was changed, yes, but you didn't change it.

Although we agree on sovereignty and grace, that high theological perch you are sitting on is called pride. You act like you have the ability to see inside Winman and how the Lord is working in his life. He is a child of God like the rest of us, and because he does not agree with you does not have one thing to do with that fact. Each of us is a work in the making by the Holy Spirit.

 

[saturneptune]

By your understanding thereof. No one is disputing that. What is being disputed is the role your will plays therein.

You could no sooner believe other than you do than you could believe in Santa Claus. You either understand and believe what you hear, or you do not.

Your will is not free.

Speaking of Santa Claus, why don't you get rid of that avatar.

 

[Aaron]

Believe whatever you want.

That's your motto, yes, but it's a false one.

Truth is self-existing and self-evident. It is perceived, not decided. It's like saying you decided that the sky is blue.

 

[Aaron]

Although we agree on sovereignty and grace, that high theological perch you are sitting on is called pride. You act like you have the ability to see inside Winman and how the Lord is working in his life. He is a child of God like the rest of us, and because he does not agree with you does not have one thing to do with that fact. Each of us is a work in the making by the Holy Spirit.

I know water is wet and fire will burn, and that's what is being discussed.

Don't you have some marbles to stack somewhere?

 

[saturneptune]

I know water is wet and fire will burn, and that's what is being discussed.

Don't you have some marbles to stack somewhere?

Yes, I will stack them if you will take them and play a game or two in the intersection. As far as your perch goes, pride comes before a fall.