Conditional Election

[Winman]

Amen - we are not worthy.

And this is the biggest lie of all, false humility. No Calvinist truly admits he is evil, he blames God.

Oh, a Calvinist will gladly tell you what a wretched sinner he is, but then he will excuse it all away by saying he was born that way, born with a sin nature that cannot possibly do good. And why was he born that way? Because God cursed Adam when he sinned so that all his posterity would be born with a sin nature.

Now, why in the world would God do that? We put especially evil men in prison to prevent them from performing more crime and hurting more people, but according to Calvinism, God cursed Adam so that all his children would be born sinners. This would INCREASE sin.

At the same time, God repeatedly tells everyone how much he hates and despises sin.

So, why would God cause us to be sinners? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

But telling every one you sin because you were born that way is hardly a real confession of guilt.

 

[Mexdeaf]

And this is the biggest lie of all, false humility. No Calvinist truly admits he is evil, he blames God.

Oh, a Calvinist will gladly tell you what a wretched sinner he is, but then he will excuse it all away by saying he was born that way, born with a sin nature that cannot possibly do good. And why was he born that way? Because God cursed Adam when he sinned so that all his posterity would be born with a sin nature.

Now, why in the world would God do that? We put especially evil men in prison to prevent them from performing more crime and hurting more people, but according to Calvinism, God cursed Adam so that all his children would be born sinners. This would INCREASE sin.

At the same time, God repeatedly tells everyone how much he hates and despises sin.

So, why would God cause us to be sinners? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

But telling every one you sin because you were born that way is hardly a real confession of guilt.

Sigh, the scriptures themselves say: (Romans 5)

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It really is just so plain and simple. All are under condemnation and are born in that condition, but not all are saved. It is by grace through faith. It is not of merit, nor of the will of man. It is once and forever, not dependent upon my ability. It is a Sovereign King's grace and adoption, not a slave's choice to join the family.

 

[preacher4truth]

And this is the biggest lie of all, false humility. No Calvinist truly admits he is evil, he blames God.

:laugh:

All Calvinists decry their own misery and inability and depend, and cry out for mercy from God. You have no clue about Calvinists, nor about the Puritans and their true attitude toward God and self. Both teachings are one in the same.

But we have the big picture on YOU winman:

You weren't dead in sins, you simply had a boo-boo, whined for a snoopy bandaid and put it on yourself.

Winman and more of his false doctrine. Continue the saga. :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Sigh, the scriptures themselves say: (Romans 5)

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It really is just so plain and simple. All are under condemnation and are born in that condition, but not all are saved. It is by grace through faith. It is not of merit, nor of the will of man. It is once and forever, not dependent upon my ability. It is a Sovereign King's grace and adoption, not a slave's choice to join the family.

Scripture has nothing to do with it, if you are born with a sin nature that compels you to sin, then you are VICTIM, not a criminal.

If a woman uses drugs and becomes addicted, she is a criminal. But if her baby is born addicted to those same drugs, do we consider the baby a criminal? NO, we consider the baby a victim of it's own mother's drug addiction. We pity the baby, not condemn it.

Likewise, if we are all born with a sin nature that compels us to sin, then we deserve pity, not condemnation. The very fact that God condemns us for sin proves we are not compelled to sin. God is not unjust.

If you really believe you MUST sin, you can hardly feel guilty about it. In fact, a man would have a perfect right to resent God for making him a sinner.

Of course, I do not believe we are born sinners, I believe that all men willingly and knowingly choose to sin and are therefore completely responsible and guilty for their own choices.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Scripture has nothing to do with it,

That's your problem right there. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

:laugh:

All Calvinists decry their own misery and inability and depend, and cry out for mercy from God. You have no clue about Calvinists, nor about the Puritans and their true attitude toward God and self. Both teachings are one in the same.

But we have the big picture on YOU winman:

You weren't dead in sins, you simply had a boo-boo, whined for a snoopy bandaid and put it on yourself.

Winman and more of his false doctrine. Continue the saga. :thumbs:

A person can tell by your behavior that your humility is false.

The prodigal son did not cry out to his father because of inability, he cried for mercy because he willingly and knowingly sinned against his father. HUGE difference.

Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

This young man did not claim he was UNABLE to do good, he confessed he had willingly sinned against his father.

But note also that the boy said he was NO MORE worthy to be called his son. This shows the boy was not originally lost and he was not originally a sinner. At first he was WORTHY, because he had no sin. But as soon as he knowingly and willingly sinned against his father, he was NO MORE worthy.

There it is in black and white for those who can discern scripture.

 

[Winman]

That's your problem right there. :smilewinkgrin:

Right, everybody here knows I never quote scripture to support my views.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Right, everybody here knows I never quote scripture to support my views.

A text without a context is a pretext.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[preacher4truth]

A person can tell by your behavior that your humility is false.

Thanks for your pejorative and slander upon me.

The prodigal son did not cry out to his father because of inability, he cried for mercy because he willingly and knowingly sinned against his father. HUGE difference.

Thanks for the slanderous beginninig to your post.

He cried out for both, which proves he was a Calvinist. He totally depended upon His Father who drew him to Himself.

How's your snoopy band-aid? You stuck it on yourself -- something glaringly obvious. How's it doing? got neosporin?

I've presented your winman theology to many Baptist churches -- not one has believed your nonsense. NONE.

None in many churches. For this I am thankful.

Not ONE Baptist has accepted your teachings. Several have approached me saying they know of NO Baptist who teaches or believes the things you say.

When your theology is presented they heartily refute your errors and have scorned them.

Let this be a notice: winman has answered NO Scriptures offered by mexdeaf nor myself which dismantle his errant teachings.

But be at 'peace' I've not named you, only your teachings.

 

[Winman]

Thanks for the slanderous beginninig to your post.

He cried out for both, which proves he was a Calvinist. He totally depended upon His Father who drew him to Himself.

There is not one word in his confession about being UNABLE to obey his father, only that he sinned against heaven and against him.

How's your snoopy band-aid? You stuck it on yourself -- something glaringly obvious. How's it doing? got neosporin?

I would have no problem using a Snoopy band-aid if I had a cut or scratch, or using Neosporin either.

I've presented your winman theology to many Baptist churches -- not one has believed your nonsense. NONE.

None in many churches. For this I am thankful.

Not ONE Baptist has accepted your teachings. Several have approached me saying they know of NO Baptist who teaches or believes the things you say.

When your theology is presented they heartily refute your errors and have scorned them.

Wow, so you have shown other people what I have written? That makes me suspect that you are greatly troubled by what I write and suspect there may be real merit and truth to it.

Let this be a notice: winman has answered NO Scriptures offered by mexdeaf nor myself which dismantle his errant teachings.

But be at 'peace' I've not named you, only your teachings.

Not one of you Calvinists has ever shown that a person is born a sinner. Oh, you might have shown some scripture that can be wrested to "appear" to show men are born a sinner, such as Psa 51:5, or even Rom 5:19, but if a person truly studies out these proof texts they will quickly realize they do not support Total Inability, in fact, they often refute it.

Thanks for telling me you have shown others the scriptures I have presented in the past. I believe in the power of God's word, and I know some will be convicted and convinced of truth.

 

[preacher4truth]

Winman you've been called out by many Baptists for your numerous errors and yet you remain on your unsustainable path.

 

[quantumfaith]

Winman, I know you will, you stay strong and confident in your convictions.

 

[Winman]

Winman, I know you will, you stay strong and confident in your convictions.

Thanks. I really cannot help what I believe, I sincerely and honestly believe this is what scripture is teaching. I try to always show scripture that supports my view.

Truth is, once a person sees that Original Sin is false, it is incredibly obvious, such as what the prodigal son said to his father.

Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

The first thing to remember is that it was Jesus who told these parables, and Jesus would not mislead us. And NNE knows doctrine better than Jesus.

Notice the prodigal said I am NO MORE WORTHY to be called thy son. This implies that before the prodigal son left home and went out in sin that he WAS WORTHY. He was not lost, he was not a sinner originally.

And the father's response supports this;

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The father said the prodigal was alive AGAIN, so obviously he was alive at one time, but then went out in sin and became "dead" and "lost".

I believe it is absolutely obvious that Jesus himself refutes orignal sin.

But it is everywhere in scripture, even in verses often quoted to prove Total Depravity.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Here is a famous verse that Calvinists quote to prove Total Depravity, but it actually refutes it.

No clothing starts out filthy or torn. Whatever you are wearing, at one time it was not torn, and it was not dirty. Likewise, the scriptures say we are made upright, but all men have gone out in sin. It is sin that makes our clothing of righteousness filthy and torn.

And notice we are compared to a leaf that fades away. Does any leaf start out brown and dead? NO, ALL leaves originally are green, tender, and very alive.

Folks have been so indoctrinated by false doctrine they cannot see the forest for the trees. This verse that is often quoted to prove Total Depravity actually refutes it. Folks just need to open their eyes.

 

[Aaron]

I really cannot help what I believe

A true confession, and only what Calvinists have been saying since this board went online.

Welcome to the Doctrine of Election, brother. :godisgood:

 

[Winman]

A true confession, and only what Calvinists have been saying since this board went online.

Welcome to the Doctrine of Election, brother. :godisgood:

Baloney, I meant that what I believe is determined by scripture, and I showed some examples of scripture that I believe clearly refutes Original Sin.

Truth is, I could probably show you many hundreds of scriptures that clearly refute Original Sin, but I try to keep my arguments simple so folks can follow them. But the scripture is there.

And I believe in election, I just do not believe in Unconditional Election.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Many people have believed Scripture sincerely, honestly, and wrongly. But there is yet hope. I was once as adamant against Calvinism as you are but only due to a (heh, heh) "lack of education".:smilewinkgrin:

 

[jonathan.borland]

Hey Winman,

Even Calvinists say we're damned for our own sins and not for another's (like Adam's). And so the question is why we all sin. Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists say the answer lies in Adam's original sin. So did Adam's sin corrupt our flesh only, or our souls also? We are all born (even Jesus) with corrupted flesh that wars against our souls. Jesus simply never gave in to the desires of the flesh, world, devil, and all of us have. Children and morally handicapped people giving in to the natural desires of the flesh does not bring them God's damnation until they act as morally responsible agents. Before and until this occurs (in opposition to common belief) they cannot make a true decision for salvation and be saved (or damned). They are safe but not saved. I fear that the reason many appear to "fall away" is because they "made a decision" before their "age of accountability," and later relied on this decision and once saved always saved dogma (which is actually true) in opposition to the lack of evidence of salvation in their lives.

 

[Winman]

Hey Winman,

Even Calvinists say we're damned for our own sins and not for another's (like Adam's). And so the question is why we all sin. Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists say the answer lies in Adam's original sin. So did Adam's sin corrupt our flesh only, or our souls also? We are all born (even Jesus) with corrupted flesh that wars against our souls. Jesus simply never gave in to the desires of the flesh, world, devil, and all of us have. Children and morally handicapped people giving in to the natural desires of the flesh does not bring them God's damnation until they act as morally responsible agents. Before and until this occurs (in opposition to common belief) they cannot make a true decision for salvation and be saved (or damned). They are safe but not saved. I fear that the reason many appear to "fall away" is because they "made a decision" before their "age of accountability," and later relied on this decision and once saved always saved dogma (which is actually true) in opposition to the lack of evidence of salvation in their lives.

The flesh ALWAYS warred against the Spirit, even before man became a sinner. We can see that Eve had the lusts of the flesh described in 1 John 2 in the garden.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Before Adam and Eve sinned, God had declared them to be "very good" (Gen 1:31) and yet we see the 3 worldly lusts described in 1 Jhn 2:16 operating in Eve.

1 Jhn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Eve saw the forbidden fruit was good for food, this is the lust of the flesh. She saw it was pleasant to the eyes, this is the lust of the eyes, she saw the forbidden fruit was "desired" to make one wise, this is the pride of life.

So, Eve ALREADY had all of these worldly lusts present in her flesh before she sinned, and yet God himself called her very good.

So, having fleshly lusts itself does not make us evil, we only become evil when we obey these lusts when it would cause us to break one of God's commands. Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in ALL POINTS like as we are, yet without sin.

This is where folks go wrong, they think that having fleshly lusts is sin, it is not. Temptation is not sin.

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The scriptures actually say a man is blessed when he endures temptation, so how can it be evil? Temptation is a test, whether we love God or not.

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So, this is where I believe folks go wrong, they interpret our fleshly lusts as a "sin nature". It is true that our flesh tugs and pulls us toward sin, but we are all responsible to obey God's commands.

 

[Aaron]

Baloney, I meant that what I believe is determined by scripture,

You were right the first time. Here, I'll prove it.

Could you make the decision at this point to believe otherwise, and truly believe it in your heart?

Nope. One's faith is not a matter of his will.

 

[Van]

Absurdity

Not a misrepresentation. If one's election is on the basis for any act or attitude, response, assent or disposition, then you are saying God elects one who possesses by nature a certain quality. You cannot escape it. You are saying the Ethiopian can change his skin.

The Calvinist says God's election is unconditional. All are equal in acts, attitudes, responses and assents. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. There is no criterion by which one can qualify for God's mercy.

No, not the citations, just your annotations.

If everyone has the natural ability to receive the gospel, why do most people reject it or fail to embrace it fully. Because their spiritual ability is limited and by nature, they are children of wrath, predisposed to turn from God and go their own way.

We are to till the ground, witness, cultivate, plant and water. And by doing so help to win some for Christ as ambassadors of Christ.

Did I say habitual sin can result in loss of our limited spiritual ability, like the first soil? Yes. So the Ethiopian trapped in habitual sin, who has engaged in the practice of sin over time probably cannot respond because what little spiritual ability he had has been lost through hardening. Thus, Aaron, you statement is a direct and opposite misrepresentation of my view.

Yes Calvinism says God's election of individuals for salvation is unconditional, however scripture after scripture says our election is conditioned upon God crediting our faith as righteousness, i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, and 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Is there no criteria by which to qualify for God's mercy? Certainly that would depend upon the mercy. God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Now if that grace involved mercy, then God indeed has criteria for a conditional election, just as 1 Peter 5:5 says. The lost must submit to God in all humility to obtain mercy, James 1:21.

Bottom line, Calvinists defend their mistaken views by disparaging their opponents, misrepresenting the opponents view, and speaking in broad generalities without evidence from scripture.