Conditional Salvation

[Samuels]

SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON...
FAITH *JOHN 3:14-21 in God's promises *2 PETER 1:4, (believing God's Word)
REPENTANCE *MATTHEW 3:2; MATTHEW 4:17; LUKE 13:3-5; ACTS 2:38; ACTS 3:19; ACTS 8:32; PROVERBS 28:9-13 (changing your mind to follow Gods Word)
CONFESSION *1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:13 OF SIN *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4
Being BORN AGAIN (by faith in God's Word) *JOHN 3:3-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. Those who follow God do not practice sin and those who continue in SIN do not know God *1 JOHN 3:9; 1 JOHN 2:1-4

I'm quite speechless ... God bless you, brother! ... You have received spiritual revelation from the Lord.

 

[Particular]

Man is saved by grace through faith. No man is saved by Grace alone. No faith. No grace.
Jesus went to man named simon house and this took place;
Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

With the carnal mind man can hear and understand the milk of the word. The term "dead" is a metaphor meaning we are considered dead to God. If a man's spirit were actually dead then the man would also be dead. The Spirit animates the body. Paul also claimed He died to sin daily. Does this mean he died every day and rose again? Of course not. It means he repented of his sins regularly. The carnal man can understand the milk of the word.
Paul wrote;
Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Everyone starts out in Christianity at the very bottom and as you Grow You learn to walk Spiritually. Being spiritual is a learned experience. it isn't just bestowed on you. How ever we are all carnal at times I know I am and I also, like Paul die daily to sin. It's not a requirement I do this to confess my sins before the Lord and He is faithful to forgive.
MB

Was the woman in Luke 7 dead in her trespasses and sins when Jesus forgave her sins, or had God already given her faith to believe...then God forgave her sins?
Can someone who is dead in their trespasses and sins acquire faith...before God graciously saves?

 

[MB]

Was the woman in Luke 7 dead in her trespasses and sins when Jesus forgave her sins, or had God already given her faith to believe...then God forgave her sins?
Can someone who is dead in their trespasses and sins acquire faith...before God graciously saves?

We are all given a measure of faith.
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
MB

 

[Particular]

We are all given a measure of faith.
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
MB

Paul says he was given grace. He is talking to the Christians in Rome. Are you saying the phrase "every man" is world universal?
Or could the phrase "every man" refer to every Christian?

 

[Dave G]

Now I would invite you to find Total depravity that in meaning we have no capacity to do what is right in God's eyes.

" But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And [there is] none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities." ( Isaiah 64:6-7 ).

So, Scripture saying that mankind's righteousnesses are as filthy rags, is not enough?

God says YOU CAN DO IT.

God said Israel could do it.

The context of Deuteronomy 30 begins in Deuteronomy 29:1-2, where Moses is speaking to the children of Israel.
Where you get the idea that this applies to all men, I do not know.

The very IDEA that you have been stripped of the capacity to ever do right. Where did you get that idea FROM? where is the verse?

I just showed you.
I cannot help it if you do not believe the words on the page, Utilyan.

In addition, man was not stripped of the capacity to ever do right in God's eyes.
We abrogated it...gave it away.

Have you been thinking this whole time that I was advocating that mankind had the ability to do right in God's eyes, stripped away by God?
I surely hope not.

Because the blame lies squarely on us as a race, not with the Lord.

Your bringing in a TRADITION that has never been hinted at by scripture.

While you're busy telling me I'm bringing in a tradition that has never been hinted at by Scripture, and I just showed you a list of scriptures whose words clearly show that man is not only incapable of doing good:

" Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." ( Jeremiah 13:23 ).

...but are accustomed to doing evil, please explain to me where I brought it in from.
John Calvin?
I'd never heard of him before 2003, and I certainly didn't get my understanding of Scripture from him or anyone like him.

Now...In Jeremiah, the Lord is speaking to Israel.

But I know of no man who is outside of what is stated in Romans 1:18-32 and Romans 3:10-18, and we are all accustomed to doing evil, and not good in God's eyes.
All men are sinners, and all men outside of Christ are termed as "wicked" by God.
Therefore, the "wicked" in the Psalms and Proverbs, the "fool" in Proverbs, and the "vile" throughout the Bible, are the sons of men who are not saved.
The righteous are the saved, the "wise", the "diligent", the "meek", the "peacemaker", etc.

The Gospel starts out with a baseline...there is none righteous, no not one.
That, Utliyan, is the Gospel that you were asking me to declare.
Let the words sink in, and believe them.


Romans then progresses to reveal that righteousness is because of Jesus Christ...and His righteousness is imputed to the believer ( Romans 4:22-25 ).
We have none of our own.

Are you not aware of the doctrine of imputed righteousness, and why it is so important that we as believers have Christ's righteousness and not our own?

Because we as sinful men cannot do anything good in God's eyes to warrant Him saving us from eternal Hell fire.
Christ's finished work on the cross is the only thing that we as believers can trust.

Why do we need a Saviour so desperately?
Because of something you seem to object very highly to...

"Total Depravity", which is not depravity in the moral sense, but in the spiritual sense.

 

[Dave G]

@utilyan :
The Gospel:

There is none righteous, no not one ( Romans 3:10-12 ).
For all have sinned ( Romans 3:23 ).
The wages of sin is death ( Romans 6:23, Revelation 20:11-15 ), but the GIFT ( not the reward ) of God is eternal life ( John 17:3 ) through Jesus Christ.
All who believe shall not perish, but have everlasting life ( John 3:16 )...unbelievers will not.
Also, please see 1 Corinthians 15:1-7.

But the Bible doesn't stop there...

There are reasons why God saves, and there are reasons why man does not believe.
There is a reason why people do and do not believe the Gospel from the heart.
There is a reason why some have faith, and why most do not.

But it seems that you do not like those reasons, sir.
I'm sorry if it offends you, but I'd much rather tell you the truth than a lie.

Some questions before I go:
It seems to me that you don't even recognize your own condition before God;

- How is it that you came to the conclusion that you are a sinner in need of a Saviour?
- Didn't His word make that impression upon you?
His words are what made that impression upon me...not some man's persuasion or urging me to make a "decision" for Him.

The Scriptures that the article I linked to you reference God's words.
Read them carefully.
That is where I get the "idea" that we as men can only ever do nothing that is truly pleasing to God, apart from being "in Christ".

An observation:

No one I know that loves the Lord, has ever questioned the fact that we are all worthless sinners deserving of Hell.
What is it that is so hard to believe, that man is helpless and hopeless with regard to sin?
Because it is not Scriptural?

I just showed you that it is, indeed, biblical.
That is the basis for our needing a Saviour, Utilyan...

To save us from ourselves, and from God's wrath.

This is my final reply in this thread.


I bid you a good evening, and a hope that God's grace be shown to you in many ways...
So much so, that you can only sit in awe of His goodness towards you.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 12:20 AM Pacific.

 

[utilyan]

" But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And [there is] none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities." ( Isaiah 64:6-7 ).

So, Scripture saying that mankind's righteousnesses are as filthy rags, is not enough?

God said Israel could do it.

The context of Deuteronomy 30 begins in Deuteronomy 29:1-2, where Moses is speaking to the children of Israel.
Where you get the idea that this applies to all men, I do not know.

I just showed you.
I cannot help it if you do not believe the words on the page, Utilyan.

In addition, man was not stripped of the capacity to ever do right in God's eyes.
We abrogated it...gave it away.

Have you been thinking this whole time that I was advocating that mankind had the ability to do right in God's eyes, stripped away by God?
I surely hope not.

Because the blame lies squarely on us as a race, not with the Lord.

While you're busy telling me I'm bringing in a tradition that has never been hinted at by Scripture, and I just showed you a list of scriptures whose words clearly show that man is not only incapable of doing good:

" Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." ( Jeremiah 13:23 ).

...but are accustomed to doing evil, please explain to me where I brought it in from.
John Calvin?
I'd never heard of him before 2003, and I certainly didn't get my understanding of Scripture from him or anyone like him.

Now...In Jeremiah, the Lord is speaking to Israel.

But I know of no man who is outside of what is stated in Romans 1:18-32 and Romans 3:10-18, and we are all accustomed to doing evil, and not good in God's eyes.
All men are sinners, and all men outside of Christ are termed as "wicked" by God.
Therefore, the "wicked" in the Psalms and Proverbs, the "fool" in Proverbs, and the "vile" throughout the Bible, are the sons of men who are not saved.
The righteous are the saved, the "wise", the "diligent", the "meek", the "peacemaker", etc.

The Gospel starts out with a baseline...there is none righteous, no not one.
That, Utliyan, is the Gospel that you were asking me to declare.
Let the words sink in, and believe them.


Romans then progresses to reveal that righteousness is because of Jesus Christ...and His righteousness is imputed to the believer ( Romans 4:22-25 ).
We have none of our own.

Are you not aware of the doctrine of imputed righteousness, and why it is so important that we as believers have Christ's righteousness and not our own?

Because we as sinful men cannot do anything good in God's eyes to warrant Him saving us from eternal Hell fire.
Christ's finished work on the cross is the only thing that we as believers can trust.

Why do we need a Saviour so desperately?
Because of something you seem to object very highly to...

"Total Depravity", which is not depravity in the moral sense, but in the spiritual sense.

"God said Israel could do it."

How can you say context of GOD's UNIVERSAL COMMAND only applies to Israel

When the entire context of Isaiah 64 is Israel only


No Jews teach Total Depravity. Your claiming this doctrine is established in old testament. It was never established.

The very verse before says Isaiah is meeting up with those who do righteous. He says God WAS, WAS angry back when they sinned. So the ENTIRE context isn't negative but POSITIVE be he is now with his righteous.....Guess what? I GUESS according to your logic ALL ARE NOW RIGHTEOUS

Isaiah 64

5You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
We continued in them a long time;
And shall we be saved?

6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


If we were to follow this dumb logic ALL ARE NOW RIGHTEOUS. It tells you right there the guy who is righteous is talking about how ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS was like filthy rags. He is talking about HIMSELF his OWN CREW. now if you want to apply that universally. You are in essence saying every one is righteous.

Give me your summary of the entire context here. There is NO ESCAPE. It doesn't teach Total Depravity.


This is an excellent example of not building your theology from scripture. Instead you start with a dumb idea first "Total Depravity" and now your fishing for it in scripture.

You would have to be the dumbest author of all time if your intention was to teach total depravity. Which me and you can't teach in ONE LINE. The reason you can't find one line that teaches it, is because it is never taught.

It is a GNOSTIC TRADITION a external philosophy started by the Manicheans. You have continuously FAILED to show scripture teach total depravity.

God is not an idiot who needs your help to author the gospel. We go with what it says, we don't make up teachings and then try to fish them from out of context phrases.

 

[Particular]

Total depravity, is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. It is advocated to various degrees by many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, including those of Lutheranism, and Calvinism. Arminians, such as Methodists, hold to total depravity, albeit not in the same way as the Reformed.

 

[tyndale1946]

Total depravity, is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. It is advocated to various degrees by many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, including those of Lutheranism, and Calvinism. Arminians, such as Methodists, hold to total depravity, albeit not in the same way as the Reformed.

I know what it is, I'm reading an online book by A. W. Pink called The Total Depravity of Man as we speak... Are you for it or against it?... Brother Glen

I know Squire is going to close this soon and if anyone is interested here it is!

http://pastorshelper.com/awpink/dlawpink2012/The Total Depravity of Man.pdf

 

[utilyan]

Total depravity, is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. It is advocated to various degrees by many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, including those of Lutheranism, and Calvinism. Arminians, such as Methodists, hold to total depravity, albeit not in the same way as the Reformed.

In case we get locked out the thread, I hope you can start another thread where we can try to build out of the scriptures this particular portion of teaching "unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.".

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 12:20 AM Pacific.