Conditional Salvation

[Particular]

Yes, God made man in His image. Genesis 1:26-27; Genesis 9:6.

Does that mean humans are perfect, holy, righteous and sinless?

 

[Dave G]

Show me step one, verse one. for total depravity.

Here's a good source, and very comprehensive:

Total Depravity Verse List

I don't see a need to repeat what is contained in other threads, or take over this one with a discussion of "Total Depravity".
Read the above link, and I'm sure you will find what you're looking for.

One thing I disapprove of is his choosing of the ESV as his Scriptural source...
I wouldn't use it myself, trusting only the AV in the English ( and a very few others in other languages ) for its accuracy.
You are, of course, free to choose whatever you like.

Also, at the end of his list he suggests some recommended reading.
I say, "skip them", and simply stick to the Scriptures.

You can't use the bible alone to convey TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

It can be done, and has been done.

that word is not in scripture.

Of course it isn't...neither is "rapture", "trinity", "soul-winning" and many other commonly described terms.

If you only had scripture as a way to talk to me, there is no way you can piece together and teach total depravity......try it.

I'm not interested in trying it...again.

I can give you verse after verse, you misbehave, you sin, people are naughty folks are bad, back to back. but I can't say TOTAL Depravity with scripture alone, nothing conveys that philosophy or idea.

It's not based on man-made philosophy.

It's a conclusion ( read, "set of facts" ) that is developed by God's word, and was originally formulated in response to a document entitled "the Five Articles of the Remonstrants" that was submitted to the churches of Holland in 1610.
I agree with "Total Depravity", even though I don't really choose to call it that.

I tend to refer to it as, "Total Rebellion".
The Roman Catholic Church, among others, labels it "Anathema", if I'm recalling the Canons of Trent correctly.


Again, may God bless you in your studies, sir.

 

[Particular]

I've answered your question but you refuse to accept it as an answer.



I disagree with there interpretation and they disagree with mine and trash what I believe as well. This is a debate forum it's what we do here. Maybe you've never been to a debate.Probably not it requires knowledge of the Bible. You don't seem to have any.

Why should I admit anything to you?. Who do you think you are?. What gives you the right to attack me personally? Do you think you are perfect enough to judge me..

Oh yes I'm just a dumb hick according to the likes of you.but what are you?
Assume what you like,.you will anyway. You've attacked my intelligence and Character and my humanity.

No it does not strike me as odd. The world thinks it's foolishness and you are part of the world. but I'm glad you don't like it. I'm glad you decided to trash me. To show exactly who and what you are. Nothing
MB.

This is a debate forum. This means that you are using the doctrines of man and trying to support your doctrine with scripture. It seems that you are exactly like the people whom you vilify. I'm just trying to understand why you think you alone have scripture on your side, but those debating somehow don't have scripture on their side.

 

[MB]

This is a debate forum. This means that you are using the doctrines of man and trying to support your doctrine with scripture. It seems that you are exactly like the people whom you vilify. I'm just trying to understand why you think you alone have scripture on your side, but those debating somehow don't have scripture on their side.

says you but what do you know. I don't see you as an authority on scripture more like a clanging symbol.
MB

 

[37818]

As long as there is scripture that pertains to it yes. Things that are not in scripture maybe and maybe not. It's simple There is no total inability because of the spirit being dead because, the spirit is not dead but only considered dead. The human spirit is alive as long as the body is animated. The bible clearly states we are not held responsible for the sins of our fathers. Total depravity seeks to make men responsible for the sins of Adam. Why am I telling you. You know what you believe. Prove total depravity to be true with scripture. You can't do it.
MB

Total depravity is caused by our inherited knowledge of God's knowledge of good and evil because of Adam's disobience. Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:22; Romans 5:12. So we are guilty for our own sin. Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20; Deuteronomy 24:16; Revelation 20:12.

 

[37818]

says you but what do you know. I don't see you as an authority on scripture more like a clanging symbol.
MB

Roman 2:1, ". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. . . ." This can be applied to all of us, can it not?

 

[Particular]

You nailed it on the head. Apart from God it is absolutely evil period. All Good has God as its source.

We can say Since God is the source of human existence sure humans are good. But if we split God totally you can't even call that thing human anymore. Without God's will you cannot do a single act of GOOD. Without God's will you can't sneeze either. Jesus Christ is sustainer of all things. You can't even take a single breath unless Jesus wills so.

Why are we talking about this though? Why can't you just pull the definition out of scripture? Wether its bad is can be or particular response......why can't you just show it from scripture?

Its like we are talking about a duck, why don't you just show me the duck in scripture? I'm not even getting the quacks and wobbles.

You see even in this exchange.....we are starting WITH PHILOSOPHY. not scripture.

I want you to build this idea of total depravity by whatever meaning you give it, with scripture alone

I'm sorry. Are we supposed to find all theological phrases in the Bible? Because we do not find the word "Trinity" in the Bible does that mean the being known as God is not three distict person's, yet equally one God? Does that mean that since we don't find the phrase "The supremacy of Christ" that Christ is not Supreme over all creation?

 

[Particular]

says you but what do you know. I don't see you as an authority on scripture more like a clanging symbol.
MB

If I quote the entire Bible will that satisfy you? If I exegete every verse, will that satisfy you? You seem like a very defensive person when you are confronted. Do you often attempt a higher ground by declaring that you are being picked on, even though the other person is pointing out your contradictions? It seems that you have developed a surefire means of never being wrong or having to admit you are wrong. Simply keep stating that you alone know God and all others fail to know God like you do.
Do you ever see your pride that oozes from your words?
Feel free to place me on ignore if you cannot face the person within yourself.

 

[37818]

Does that mean humans are perfect, holy, righteous and sinless?

After the fall, after the flood reference to man yet being in God's image was given >> Genesis 9:6.

Yes, God made man in His image. Genesis 1:26-27; Genesis 9:6.

 

[utilyan]

Here's a good source, and very comprehensive.

Total Depravity Verse List

I don't see a need to repeat what is contained in other threads, or take over this one with a discussion of "Total Depravity".
Read this, and I'm sure you will find what you're looking for.

However, at the end of his list he suggests some recommended reading.
I say, "skip them", and simply stick to the Scriptures.

It can be done, and has been done.

Of course it isn't...neither is "rapture", "trinity", "soul-winning" and many other commonly described terms.

I'm not interested in trying it...again.

It's not based on man-made philosophy.

It's a concept ( read, "set of facts" ) that is developed by God's word, and was originally formulated in response to a document entitled "the Five Articles of the Remonstrants" that was submitted to the churches of Holland in 1610.
I agree with it, even though I don't really choose to call it that.

I tend to refer to it as, "Total Rebellion".
The Roman Catholic Church, among others, labels it "Anathema", if I'm recalling the Canons of Trent correctly.


Again, may God bless you in your studies, sir.

I went through your list not one of them says so you see total depravity.

I can find the opposite of Total Depravity in a heartbeat.

Deuteronomy 30

11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

God says YOU CAN DO IT.

You have a list of scripture where people WON'T and DON'T.

But your claim is none CAN, That is not God's claim.


Everyone here has tripped and fell. If I use your logic my claim is none CAN WALK EVER.

I can find verse that says everyone sins. Thats easy. I can find a verse that say bad people do bad things.

You can add them all up and add a million more verses that says people sin and do bad.

none OF IT teaches Total Depravity. This should be a piece of cake. this is foundation teaching of your GOSPEL show where it teaches Total Depravity.

The very IDEA that you have been stripped of the capacity to ever do right. Where did you get that idea FROM? where is the verse?

 

[Particular]

After the fall, after the flood reference to man yet being in God's image was given >> Genesis 9:6.

You didn't answer my question.

Does that mean humans are perfect, holy, righteous and sinless?

 

[utilyan]

I'm sorry. Are we supposed to find all theological phrases in the Bible? Because we do not find the word "Trinity" in the Bible does that mean the being known as God is not three distict person's, yet equally one God? Does that mean that since we don't find the phrase "The supremacy of Christ" that Christ is not Supreme over all creation?

Trinity is a perfect example I mentioned this before. In scripture I can find God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, God the Holy Spirit. There is only one God. I can find the pieces of scripture Trinity is all there in meaning.

Now I would invite you to find Total depravity that in meaning we have no capacity to do what is right in God's eyes.

You can find scripture that say people do bad things, everyone sins, but you never get around to anything to teach the meaning of Total Depravity

Whereas I have found scripture claiming just the opposite of total depravity.

Deuteronomy 30

11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

At least tell us this verse is a lie.

You can find scripture that says everyone is naughty, everyone is evil, everyone is going to hell. lets for a minute just scribble those into the bible. That still does not prove, teach nor hint at TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

What trinity MEANS can be found in scripture. What total depravity means IS NO WHERE THERE. You can't build it.

You can have a thousand verses that says PEOPLE ARE BAD. That doesn't equal to TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Your bringing in a TRADITION that has never been hinted at by scripture.

God is not an idiot. You have got to be the dumbest author ever if you could not convey in thousands of verses what me and you can directly say in ONE LINE.

It wasn't hard for me to find ONE LINE its right there.


LOOK let me give it to you:

As a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

Does that sound right? I bet it sounds perfect. This however can't be found in scripture.

You can find People do bad things, Jews have misbehaved, everyone sins. After reading all the negative verses.

AHA! everyone sins, doesn't mean everyone can't do right.

We can scribble in fake verse like. NO one has ever done anything right. That still doesn't mean everyone can't do right.

Your hypothesis and Theory that no one can choose to follow God is not built on scripture stating so but your own personal judgement and conclusion based on the evil deeds that have been recorded.

In genesis when the fall happens God gives a entire list of penalties, you are going to have me believe he left out the most damning penalty of all and never mention total depravity?

 

[utilyan]

I bet I can take any defense of Total Depravity, scratch out the words Total Depravity and write in Total Stupidity, and get you to believe Total Stupidity is true. Because the teaching is not expressed in scripture it is a sum of just emphasizing failure and shoving in a bad assumption to summarize it all.

 

[Particular]

Trinity is a perfect example I mentioned this before. In scripture I can find God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, God the Holy Spirit. There is only one God. I can find the pieces of scripture Trinity is all there in meaning.

Now I would invite you to find Total depravity that in meaning we have no capacity to do what is right in God's eyes.

You can find scripture that say people do bad things, everyone sins, but you never get around to anything to teach the meaning of Total Depravity

Whereas I have found scripture claiming just the opposite of total depravity.

Deuteronomy 30

11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

At least tell us this verse is a lie.

You can find scripture that says everyone is naughty, everyone is evil, everyone is going to hell. lets for a minute just scribble those into the bible. That still does not prove, teach nor hint at TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

What trinity MEANS can be found in scripture. What total depravity means IS NO WHERE THERE. You can't build it.

You can have a thousand verses that says PEOPLE ARE BAD. That doesn't equal to TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Your bringing in a TRADITION that has never been hinted at by scripture.

God is not an idiot. You have got to be the dumbest author ever if you could not convey in thousands of verses what me and you can directly say in ONE LINE.

It wasn't hard for me to find ONE LINE its right there.


LOOK let me give it to you:

As a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

Does that sound right? I bet it sounds perfect. This however can't be found in scripture.

You can find People do bad things, Jews have misbehaved, everyone sins. After reading all the negative verses.

AHA! everyone sins, doesn't mean everyone can't do right.

We can scribble in fake verse like. NO one has ever done anything right. That still doesn't mean everyone can't do right.

Your hypothesis and Theory that no one can choose to follow God is not built on scripture stating so but your own personal judgement and conclusion based on the evil deeds that have been recorded.

In genesis when the fall happens God gives a entire list of penalties, you are going to have me believe he left out the most damning penalty of all and never mention total depravity?

It seems you misunderstand the meaning of total depravity.

 

[MB]

Roman 2:1, ". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. . . ." This can be applied to all of us, can it not?

All of scripture applies to us all.
MB

 

[MB]

Total depravity is caused by our inherited knowledge of God's knowledge of good and evil because of Adam's disobience. Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:22; Romans 5:12. So we are guilty for our own sin. Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20; Deuteronomy 24:16; Revelation 20:12.

I admit that man is a sinful creature. What I disagree with in total depravity is that we inherited Adam's sin. We did not inherit Adam's sin. I believe man is only responsible for his own sin. Paul say's he would not have known sin if it weren't for the Law..

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
MB

 

[MB]

I'm sorry. Are we supposed to find all theological phrases in the Bible? Because we do not find the word "Trinity" in the Bible does that mean the being known as God is not three distict person's, yet equally one God? Does that mean that since we don't find the phrase "The supremacy of Christ" that Christ is not Supreme over all creation?

Can God be equal with Him self? Christ is higher than supreme. Christ is all powerful .
MB

 

[MB]

I bet I can take any defense of Total Depravity, scratch out the words Total Depravity and write in Total Stupidity, and get you to believe Total Stupidity is true. Because the teaching is not expressed in scripture it is a sum of just emphasizing failure and shoving in a bad assumption to summarize it all.

I agree.Total depravity in the sense of inability is not supported by scripture. Your right it is stupidity.
MB

 

[MB]

If I quote the entire Bible will that satisfy you? If I exegete every verse, will that satisfy you? You seem like a very defensive person when you are confronted. Do you often attempt a higher ground by declaring that you are being picked on, even though the other person is pointing out your contradictions? It seems that you have developed a surefire means of never being wrong or having to admit you are wrong. Simply keep stating that you alone know God and all others fail to know God like you do.
Do you ever see your pride that oozes from your words?
Feel free to place me on ignore if you cannot face the person within yourself.

You are so funny you made me laugh so hard I nearly fell out of my chair.. You seem so irritated. Hehehehe
MB

 

[Particular]

Can God be equal with Him self? Christ is higher than supreme. Christ is all powerful .
MB

Please answer the question.

Are we supposed to find all theological phrases in the Bible?