Conditional Salvation

[tyndale1946]

How close is this?
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Total depravity is a biblical truth weather men come to that truth or not, does not change what it is... Some say this is a Calvinist doctrine, no its not it existed before the term was coined... I think as long as I have been on this board, that men don't like the term SINNER... Well that's what we are Totally Depraved Sinners... Take heart brethren, that is just who Jesus Christ came to save... If you think you are without sin, then you don't need a Savior, do you?... My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is going to clean me up, body, soul and spirit... I'll be a new man, some of you just want a touch up... Go figure???... Brother Glen

 

[Particular]

I'd say it goes right along with this:


" What then? are we better [than they?] No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes." ( Romans 3:9-18 )

....and every other word that condemns us as sinners.

Perhaps this...

Isaiah 53:5-6 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

[utilyan]

How close is this?
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Its not pointing at capacity. You need to pull from the TEXT itself that you are totally depraved.

Anyone who has NEVER sinned, still falls short of the glory of God.

Lets clear that first. Jesus even gives a parable of servant who fixes his master's meal, the master doesn't have to thank him.. in other words NOT SINNING is nothing spectacular or divine.

2nd Paul is not establishing new doctrine. He his quoting psalms 14. Plain old Jewish teaching. Where Jews sinned.

If you want to make it a point that "everyone sins" 1 John 1 is your best bet. Its not here his context is the Jews.


None of that line says you lost total capacity to do the right thing in the eyes of God.

Its like of a cup of water was spilled on you your conclusion is it can only do that and has no capacity of behaving otherwise.


Show me were YOU PERSONALLY first learned TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Scripture simply never taught it to you.

The "TEACHING" cannot be found. It is a philosophy made up outside and then your playing a game finding it in the text.

No one reads scripture and concludes it on their own. They need help. its over the shoulder philosophy.

 

[Particular]

Its not pointing at capacity. You need to pull from the TEXT itself that you are totally depraved.

Anyone who has NEVER sinned, still falls short of the glory of God.

Lets clear that first. Jesus even gives a parable of servant who fixes his master's meal, the master doesn't have to thank him.. in other words NOT SINNING is nothing spectacular or divine.

2nd Paul is not establishing new doctrine. He his quoting psalms 14. Plain old Jewish teaching. Where Jews sinned.

If you want to make it a point that "everyone sins" 1 John 1 is your best bet. Its not here his context is the Jews.


None of that line says you lost total capacity to do the right thing in the eyes of God.

Its like of a cup of water was spilled on you your conclusion is it can only do that and has no capacity of behaving otherwise.


Show me were YOU PERSONALLY first learned TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Scripture simply never taught it to you.

The "TEACHING" cannot be found. It is a philosophy made up outside and then your playing a game finding it in the text.

No one reads scripture and concludes it on their own. They need help. its over the shoulder philosophy.

I'm just quoting scripture. It says all have sinned. It seems you imagine that the term "totally depraved" means that you are as wicked as you could possibly be. I have never heard anyone say that.
What do you think "total depravity" actually means?
What it conveys to me is that we are by nature in rebellion to God and we fall short of what God originally designed us to be. Every part of our nature has been corrupted by sin. Is there verses that convey that humans are by nature good?

 

[utilyan]

Imagine the bible was like LEGOS . If you are not familiar legos are toy bricks you can build houses and stuff with.

If we lay out a mat and start with scripture alone. I can grab a brick that says God the father, that Jesus is God, That the holy spirit is God.

ALL from only and just the bricks. And we can build trinity, Notice I didn't start with trinity. I merely and only used the pieces of SCRIPTURE and from the SCRIPTURE I pull out the idea of TRINITY.

Total Depravity You cannot, and I have tried, YOU cannot build TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

Imagine a christian reading through the bible and try to walk me through as he reads and finds the proper bricks and pulls out understanding. Go ahead and try to walk me through how one discovers TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

It is impossible the pieces are not there. It requires an external philosophy by power of suggestion to find it.

With the scripture alone you cannot build this theology. It is very easy to prove me wrong. Simply walk me through what a christian sees and reads and try to build it. This is an "easy" challenge. You can't its not there, it never was.

 

[Dave G]

It seems you imagine that the term "totally depraved" means that you are as wicked as you could possibly be.

No I do not.

I have never heard anyone say that.

I have heard plenty of people who oppose "Calvinism" ( the TULIP ) charge "Calvinists" with saying that...even though they do not.

What do you think "total depravity" actually means?

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).

Also... Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, and John 3:19-20 among others; which also include many of the Psalms and Proverbs.
Psalms 10:4 and Psalms 58:3 are examples.

What it conveys to me is that we are by nature in rebellion to God and we fall short of what God originally designed us to be.

I agree.

Every part of our nature has been corrupted by sin.

Again, I agree.

Is there verses that convey that humans are by nature good?

None that I can think of...
Only ones that convey that we are bad, corrupt, unprofitable, wicked, selfish, like dogs and pigs, and most importantly, proud of it ( Romans 1:32, Psalms 10:4 ).

For example, the Lord Jesus had this to say about man's heart:
" For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: " ( Matthew 15:19 )

 

[Dave G]

With the scripture alone you cannot build this theology. It is very easy to prove me wrong. Simply walk me through what a christian sees and reads and try to build it. This is an "easy" challenge. You can't its not there, it never was.

That's already been done, Utilyan.

The problem I'm seeing, is that you simply disagree with what "bricks" are being laid as a foundation.
I see them as very real "bricks", and you ( apparently ) don't.

But from my perspective, you never really get into what they do say...only what they "do not mean".
How about this one?

" The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts . " ( Psalms 10:4 ).

Man does not seek God, not in all his thoughts.

 

[utilyan]

I'm just quoting scripture. It says all have sinned. It seems you imagine that the term "totally depraved" means that you are as wicked as you could possibly be. I have never heard anyone say that.
What do you think "total depravity" actually means?
What it conveys to me is that we are by nature in rebellion to God and we fall short of what God originally designed us to be. Every part of our nature has been corrupted by sin. Is there verses that convey that humans are by nature good?

We need to clarify these definitions of Good and Evil. Because I've learned a Calvinist could look at a particular act just having the APPEARANCE of Good and still call it GOOD and evil at the same time.

So lets start off with Good. If it has God as its source and is sincere Love of God and Neighbor. That is GOOD. Everything else is EVIL lets just call it evil.

For example if a reprobate sacrifices his life to save the life of another person. You might say that is GOOD, but his motives are untrue, it was not in sincere glory to God, probably selfish motives. Its actually evil.

Lets avoid the vocabulary gymnastics. When someone says totally depraved THEY ARE INDEED as wicked as they could possibly be. There is nothing they can do in which is considered GOOD in God's eyes. Everything they do is WICKED in God's eyes. Filthy rags is a favorite term.

If it does not have God as its source it is absolutely evil. We might have differences where that brick wall is. I believe in the GOOD SAMARITAN for example. Other folks think he is damned.


We see when Jesus is challenged for doing Good works its not a new tactic to say he did those things through serving Satan not actually "GOOD" in God's eyes.

Matthew 12

24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Evil will look for ways to disqualify Good done of another.

"Every part of our nature has been corrupted by sin."

Thats the point Augustine tried to make is if every part of you is already corrupted then essentially you are already destroyed, nothing to save, you are equately evil as murder and rape. God does not have to "SAVE" murder.

See Sin is not NATURAL. it is UNNATURAL, it is the abomination and corruption of Good. If everything GOOD about you is destroyed then you would be completely destroyed. Already in a state of hell separated from God.

"originally designed us to be."
Again if you go contrary then your behavior is UNNATURAL.


Lets keep it clear for anything to be GOOD it requires God as its source.

 

[Particular]

No I do not.

I have heard plenty of people who oppose "Calvinism" ( the TULIP ) charge "Calvinists" with saying that...even though they do not.

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).

Also... Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, and John 3:19-20 among others; which also include many of the Psalms and Proverbs.
Psalms 10:4 and Psalms 58:3 are examples.

I agree.

Again, I agree.

None that I can think of...
Only ones that convey that we are bad, corrupt, unprofitable, wicked, selfish, like dogs and pigs, and most importantly, proud of it ( Romans 1:32, Psalms 10:4 ).

For example, the Lord Jesus had this to say about man's heart:
" For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: " ( Matthew 15:19 )

What is it that would bother you regarding the term "total depravity?"

 

[utilyan]

That's already been done, Utilyan.

The problem I'm seeing, is that you simply disagree with what "bricks" are being laid as a foundation.
I call them bricks, and you appear to disqualify them as meaning something else.

But from my perspective, you never really get into what they do say...only what they "do not mean".

Where is the first verse? Show it lay it out. Is this not the gospel? Hey I am asking you to tell us the gospel.

Do it slowly if you have to. Show me step one, verse one. for total depravity. Your not going to be able to build it buddy. I've tried. Know why I tried? Cause I think ever protestant who is actually consistent would be calvinist. And I think you guys were consistent you'd be hyper-Calvinist.

You can't use the bible alone to convey TOTAL DEPRAVITY. that word is not in scripture. If you only had scripture as a way to talk to me, there is no way you can piece together and teach total depravity......try it.

I can give you verse after verse, you misbehave, you sin, people are naughty folks are bad, back to back. but I can't say TOTAL Depravity with scripture alone, nothing conveys that philosophy or idea.

 

[Particular]

We need to clarify these definitions of Good and Evil. Because I've learned a Calvinist could look at a particular act just having the APPEARANCE of Good and still call it GOOD and evil at the same time.

So lets start off with Good. If it has God as its source and is sincere Love of God and Neighbor. That is GOOD. Everything else is EVIL lets just call it evil.

For example if a reprobate sacrifices his life to save the life of another person. You might say that is GOOD, but his motives are untrue, it was not in sincere glory to God, probably selfish motives. Its actually evil.

Lets avoid the vocabulary gymnastics. When someone says totally depraved THEY ARE INDEED as wicked as they could possibly be. There is nothing they can do in which is considered GOOD in God's eyes. Everything they do is WICKED in God's eyes. Filthy rags is a favorite term.

If it does not have God as its source it is absolutely evil. We might have differences where that brick wall is. I believe in the GOOD SAMARITAN for example. Other folks think he is damned.


We see when Jesus is challenged for doing Good works its not a new tactic to say he did those things through serving Satan not actually "GOOD" in God's eyes.

Matthew 12

24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Evil will look for ways to disqualify Good done of another.

"Every part of our nature has been corrupted by sin."

Thats the point Augustine tried to make is if every part of you is already corrupted then essentially you are already destroyed, nothing to save, you are equately evil as murder and rape. God does not have to "SAVE" murder.

See Sin is not NATURAL. it is UNNATURAL, it is the abomination and corruption of Good. If everything GOOD about you is destroyed then you would be completely destroyed. Already in a state of hell separated from God.

"originally designed us to be."
Again if you go contrary then your behavior is UNNATURAL.


Lets keep it clear for anything to be GOOD it requires God as its source.

When you use the term "absolutely evil" how does it differ from "total depravity?"
Speaking only for myself, apart from Christ and being found in Christ, can there be anything in humanity that is good?

 

[Dave G]

What is it that would bother you regarding the term "total depravity?"

I'm not bothered by it.
To me, "total depravity" means that man is not only unwilling to come to God in reconciliation for any reason, but that the "will not" ( fiercely held tightly in a death grip ) becomes a "cannot".

 

[Particular]

I'm not bothered by it.
To me, "total depravity" means that man is not only unwilling to come to God in reconciliation for any reason, but that the "will not" ( fiercely held tightly in a death grip ) becomes a "cannot".

Thanks for clarifying. It seems we agree.

 

[Dave G]

Speaking only for myself, apart from Christ and being found in Christ, can there be anything in humanity that is good?

Not in the godly sense, no.

Mankind, when it comes to truly good works that God approves of, is incapable of doing them ( Isaiah 64:6 ).
Being in Christ is the only thing that matters, from God's point of view.

One either enjoys His Son's imputed righteousness, or one does not.
One is either righteous by His Son's blood, or they are wicked.

 

[37818]

I've been saved since I was 14 years old.

Me too.

 

[Dave G]

Hey I am asking you to tell us the gospel.

Why would you need me to tell you the Gospel?
I was under the impression that you understood the Gospel, Utilyan.


However, for the sake of clarity, start with 1 Corinthians 15:1-7 and build from there.
Scripture tells us many things... and everything about who, how and why God saves any of us is the Gospel.

It's not simply a set of facts that people make a mental assent to...

The very words of God need to be believed from the heart;
The seat of a person's understanding and affections.

Cause I think ever protestant who is actually consistent would be calvinist.

I take it that you're a Roman Catholic...is this true?

 

[37818]

. . . can there be anything in humanity that is good?

Yes, God made man in His image. Genesis 1:26-27; Genesis 9:6.

 

[MB]

I'm not judging. I am asking you a question? It seems you don't want to answer.

I've answered your question but you refuse to accept it as an answer.

In this thread, you trash Calvinist and Arminian interpretation of Bible verses.

I disagree with there interpretation and they disagree with mine and trash what I believe as well. This is a debate forum it's what we do here. Maybe you've never been to a debate.Probably not it requires knowledge of the Bible. You don't seem to have any.

You call their interpretation "doctrines of men." But, when you quote the scripture (just like they quote the scripture) and when you interpret scripture (just like they interpret scripture), you don't seem willing to admit that you are doing exactly what theologians have been doing for millenniums.

Why should I admit anything to you?. Who do you think you are?. What gives you the right to attack me personally? Do you think you are perfect enough to judge me..

You have created a "doctrine of man" (assuming you are human) based upon your reading and interpretation of scripture. I am not putting you down. I am simply observing that you and the large number of theologians past and present are all attempting to understand God and express it from your limited, human perspective.

Oh yes I'm just a dumb hick according to the likes of you.but what are you?
Assume what you like,.you will anyway. You've attacked my intelligence and Character and my humanity.

What is odd in this situation is that you seem to think your interpretation is superior to all other humans both past and present. Does that not strike you as odd?

No it does not strike me as odd. The world thinks it's foolishness and you are part of the world. but I'm glad you don't like it. I'm glad you decided to trash me. To show exactly who and what you are. Nothing
MB.

 

[Dave G]

Thanks for clarifying. It seems we agree.

Welcome to the forums, sir.
Even if we did not agree, I would still say it.

How about going over and introducing yourself by making a post in the "New Member Introductions" section?

 

[utilyan]

When you use the term "absolutely evil" how does it differ from "total depravity?"
Speaking only for myself, apart from Christ and being found in Christ, can there be anything in humanity that is good?

You nailed it on the head. Apart from God it is absolutely evil period. All Good has God as its source.

We can say Since God is the source of human existence sure humans are good. But if we split God totally you can't even call that thing human anymore. Without God's will you cannot do a single act of GOOD. Without God's will you can't sneeze either. Jesus Christ is sustainer of all things. You can't even take a single breath unless Jesus wills so.

Why are we talking about this though? Why can't you just pull the definition out of scripture? Wether its bad is can be or particular response......why can't you just show it from scripture?

Its like we are talking about a duck, why don't you just show me the duck in scripture? I'm not even getting the quacks and wobbles.

You see even in this exchange.....we are starting WITH PHILOSOPHY. not scripture.

I want you to build this idea of total depravity by whatever meaning you give it, with scripture alone