Conditional Salvation

[Dave G]

27“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29“Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. 30“Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31“Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34“If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Amen.

Think about this: 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Like I said, the Lord told me to love everyone.

That doesn't mean that He does.
He is merciful...but let's not forget the added context:

"And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 )


Salvation is unconditional, Utilyan.
It's not based on what a person does...it's based on His mercy and grace.

 

[Dave G]

Just plain cowardly and evil view of God.

How is it cowardly?
From my perspective, it takes more bravery to represent God as One who does not love everyone, as the Scripture states.

It's not about winning votes from the most people, or trying to tickle people's ears, Utilyan.
It's not about being out to portray the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as anything less than fearsome to His enemies, and tender and merciful to His friends.

To the contrary, I think you take Him far too lightly.

It ain't the power or the selfishness of "winning".

It never was, with Him.

He does not stoop to "winning" or "losing", because those are what men do.
He wins by default.
He doesn't even have to try.

Both Lucifer and men have never stood a chance against Him, even though both hate Him.

I'm going to stand behind the one who loves and cares about everyone.

That's your prerogative, sir.
I'll stand behind the God of all creation, my Deliverer and Rock.

I'll make my boast in Him and His mercy, and not on my efforts to gain favor with Him.

Ill give Jesus not only my life but the eternal one too.

The believer's life and death belong to their Saviour.
No one gains eternal life by giving their life to Christ...that is a false teaching that has circulated for centuries now.

His blood bought and paid for each and every son and daughter of the living God, and they both live and die to Him ( Romans 14:8 ).
It's not a choice they made, but one that was made for them ( Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

Nevertheless, it is a willing choice they end up making, and they go to their deaths embracing the fact that they never had a say in their own salvation.
The most precious gift they could have ever "stumbled upon".

" But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. " ( Romans 10:20 )



We love Him, because He first loved us ( 1 John 4:19 ).

That's the condition for someone to be saved.

 

[3rdAngel]

Where does faith come from?

You mean you do not know? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:13-17. When we hear or read God's Word we choose to believe or not believe *JOHN 3:15-21. Faith comes by the Word of God. The victory that over comes the world is our faith *1 JOHN 5:4 in God's Word.

Who grants repentance?

God through His Spirit as we believe His Word *ACTS 2:37-38; JOHN 16:7-11.

Believers confess their sins. But it is not a condition of forgiveness.

Nope! These are your words. Then we have God's Word that says...

1 JOHN 1:9 IF (conditional) WE CONFESS OUR SINS he is faithful and just to forgive us for our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

PROVERBS 28:13 HE THAT COVERS HIS SINS SHALL NOT PROSPER; BUT WHOSOEVER CONFESSES AND FORSAKES THEN SHALL HAVE MERCY.

Faith in God's word brings about the new birth? But being born again is not by man's will ( John 1:13, James 1:18 )...so faith or belief in order to gain God's favor cannot be true. Again, that would be works, since God's bestowing the new birth on someone would not be by His choice alone, but by the choice of the person.

No one has ever said being born of God is of mans will. Please do not pretend that they have. (strawman). Faith or believing God's Word is our part. All things are possible to those who believe and walk in God's Spirit. JESUS says to the criple "ARISE TAKE UP YOUR BED AND WALK" The crippled man part was to believe. God supplied the power to walk. So it is with salvation and being born again to walk in the Spirit to newness of life *GALATIANS 5:16.

Hope this helps

 

[Dave G]

You mean you do not know?

Sure I do:
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:" ( Ephesians 2:8 )

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:13-17

It comes to His elect by the word of God.
They are the only ones who have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" ( Matthew 11:15 ).

When we hear or read God's Word we choose to believe or not believe *JOHN 3:15-21.

That's not possible for someone who is at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-8 )...they don't want to hear it.
The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned.
His word is a thing of the Spirit, as is the Gospel.

The victory that over comes the world is our faith *1 JOHN 5:4 in God's Word.

More than simply God's word...
In Jesus Christ Himself, and His promises...such as none of the ones being given to Him being lost.

PROVERBS 28:13 HE THAT COVERS HIS SINS SHALL NOT PROSPER; BUT WHOSOEVER CONFESSES AND FORSAKES THEN SHALL HAVE MERCY

I agree.
Whosoever God has bestowed His favor on, will be born again and confess those sins from a new heart and a genuine fear and love for God.


They have the mercy of God.

 

[Dave G]

No one has ever said being born of God is of mans will.

You did.
You're placing the miracle of the new birth in man's hands, by making it conditional on faith coming first, and resulting in becoming born again.

Is that not what you believe the Scriptures are teaching?

Please do not pretend that they have. (strawman).

What strawman?
Did you not just claim this?

Being BORN AGAIN (by faith in God's Word) *JOHN 3:3-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

...that faith comes before being born again?
This means that something a man has or does, triggers the new birth.
This makes man the determiner of his own destiny, and not the Lord, who is the righteous Judge.

Faith or believing God's Word is our part.

Again, you're stating that in order to save someone, God requires us to do "our part", while He does His.
From what you're telling me, salvation is conditional on what men do, in addition to what God does.

That's not grace.
that mankind helping God to save us.

He doesn't need any help in saving rebellious men from His wrath.

All things are possible to those who believe and walk in God's Spirit.

I agree.
All things are possible to those who believe in Christ.

Hope this helps

Similar to all the times you've described how that man does his part, and God does His, I disagree with you each and every time.
Scripture declares that God does His part.

That is the condition for anyone to be saved.
Man's part is not even possible without God doing His, and He only does it for those whom He has chosen to salvation.

That is why there are few that are saved...because the Lord is only going to save a remnant out of each and every tongue, tribe and nation...not because there are few that are "strong enough", in and of themselves.

Yet, those few are more than can be numbered.

 

[HankD]

Amen.

Like I said, the Lord told me to love everyone.

That doesn't mean that He does.
He is merciful...but let's not forget the added context:

"And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 )

We should ALL realize then that the parameters are from No ONE TO EVERYONE and none of us knows for sure who is included or who isn't included.

 

[3rdAngel]

Sure I do:
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:" ( Ephesians 2:8 )

Goodness you even got the answer to your own question wrong. Your question was where does faith come from. Take a read of ROMANS 10:17 and read it slowly.

It comes to His elect by the word of God. They are the only ones who have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" ( Matthew 11:15 ).

God's elect are all those who believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10-26-27.

3rdAngel said: ↑ When we hear or read God's Word we choose to believe or not believe *JOHN 3:15-21.

Your response...

That's not possible for someone who is at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-8 )...they don't want to hear it. The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned. His word is a thing of the Spirit, as is the Gospel.

Sure it is you just do not believe the scriptures. It is our faith that makes us whole when we choose to believe God's Word. These are the lessons written in the 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark Luke and John. Without JESUS we can do nothing but all things are possible to those who believe his Word. We are not at enmity if we are believing God's Word. Only those who do not believe God's Word are at enmity with God. Those who believe God's Word are not the natural man they are spiritual and those who walk in the Spirit (by faith in God's Word) do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; 2 PETER 1:4; JOHN 3:15-21.

More than simply God's word... In Jesus Christ Himself, and His promises...such as none of the ones being given to Him being lost.

So God says this is the victory that overcomes the world *1JOHN 5:4 and you say no it is more than this? I choose to believe what God says.

3rdAngel said: ↑ PROVERBS 28:13 HE THAT COVERS HIS SINS SHALL NOT PROSPER; BUT WHOSOEVER CONFESSES AND FORSAKES THEN SHALL HAVE MERCY

Your response..

I agree. Whosoever God has bestowed His favor on, will be born again and confess those sins from a new heart and a genuine fear and love for God. They have the mercy of God.

It is good that you agree. You were in disagreement earlier. I am glad you changed your mind.

 

[3rdAngel]

You did. You're placing the miracle of the new birth in man's hands, by making it conditional on faith coming first, and resulting in becoming born again.

Nope! Here you are making things up again no one has ever said or believe. All we can do is choose to believe God's Word. God changes the heart. Please do not pretend I am saying things I have never said. This does not help your cause.

What strawman?

Read the rest of the post you are quoting from. No one has ever said being born of God is of mans will. Please do not pretend that they have. (strawman). We are born of God by believing God's Word. It is the Spirit of God that changes the heart *JOHN 6:63; JOHN 3:3-8; HEBREWS 8:10-12.

Did you not just claim this?
...that faith comes before being born again? This means that something a man has or does, triggers the new birth. This makes man the determiner of his own destiny, and not the Lord, who is the righteous Judge.

Nope! How can you be born again if you do not believe God's Word? That is like saying someone is born of God that has no faith. *ROMANS 10:17. No one is born of God if they do not believe his Word *JOHN 3:15-21.

3rdAngel said: ↑ Faith or believing God's Word is our part.

Your response...

Again, you're stating that in order to save someone, God requires us to do "our part", while He does His. From what you're telling me, salvation is conditional on what men do, in addition to what God does. That's not grace. that mankind helping God to save us. He doesn't need any help in saving rebellious men from His wrath.

So your trying to argue with God and teach that we can be saved without faith in God's Word? When JESUS says in His Words that As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God *JOHN 3:15-21. Seems your trying to argue that faith is not a condition of salvation when God's Word says it is. I choose to believe God's Word and so should you.

Similar to all the times you've described how that man does his part, and God does His, I disagree with you each and every time. Scripture declares that God does His part. That is the condition for anyone to be saved. Man's part is not even possible without God doing His, and He only does it for those whom He has chosen to salvation. That is why there are few that are saved...because the Lord is only going to save a remnant out of each and every tongue, tribe and nation...not because there are few that are "strong enough", in and of themselves. Yet, those few are more than can be numbered.

The rest of your post here are your words and not God's Word. You have only been provided God's Word which are not mine. I choose to believe and follow God's Word. So should you.

Hope this helps.

 

[3rdAngel]

We should ALL realize then that the parameters are from No ONE TO EVERYONE and none of us knows for sure who is included or who isn't included.

If you believe and follow God's Word you are included and you can know it and believe it because God says so. "You shall know them by their fruit...

 

[utilyan]

Amen.

Like I said, the Lord told me to love everyone.

That doesn't mean that He does.
He is merciful...but let's not forget the added context:

"And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 )


Salvation is unconditional, Utilyan.
It's not based on what a person does...it's based on His mercy and grace.

"Like I said, the Lord told me to love everyone.

That doesn't mean that He does."

Its because He loves everyone you are commanded to follow his example.

Your idea of Jesus as our example to follow is a sinner and a hypocrite.

Again the problem is Jesus having UNCONDITIONAL HATRED.

1 John 3
15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

 

[loDebar]

The Bible adds election.

not God, not the Bible, suggest Satan add election
Election calls God a liar

 

[Dave G]

Election calls God a liar

Election is a fact of Scripture.

How many places can you name in God's word where "election", "elect", "ordained", "chosen", "chooses", etc are found?

Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:28-30.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
1 Peter 1:2.
1 Thessalonians 1:4.
Romans 8:33.
Psalms 65:4.
Titus 1:1.

Many more.

"Elect" means "to choose" in the verb sense.
"Elect" means "chosen" in the noun sense.
"Ordained" means "appointed" / "set forth" / "set aside for a special purpose" / "determined".

Do you think "election" relies on man's choices?
Man would not choose God, given the "chance".
Without the new birth, we wouldn't even care about our sins and how they've offended Him.

Election also makes the Lord, God.
He decides what is fair when it comes to bestowing gifts, and saving people from His wrath, not us.
All are condemned, therefore all are worthy of nothing but death ( Romans 1:32 ).

Election is the only condition that really matters, for someone to be saved.

That He would bother to save anyone after what we've done, amazes me.

 

[3rdAngel]

Election is a fact of Scripture.

How many places can you name in God's word where "election", "elect", "ordained", "chosen", "chooses", etc are found?

Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:28-30.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
1 Peter 1:2.
1 Thessalonians 1:4.
Romans 8:33.
Psalms 65:4.
Titus 1:1.

Many more.

"Elect" means "to choose" in the verb sense.
"Elect" means "chosen" in the noun sense.
"Ordained" means "appointed" / "set forth" / "set aside for a special purpose" / "determined".

Do you think "election" relies on man's choices?
Man would not choose God, given the "chance".
Without the new birth, we wouldn't even care about our sins and how they've offended Him.

Election also makes the Lord, God.
He decides what is fair when it comes to bestowing gifts, and saving people from His wrath, not us.
All are condemned, therefore all are worthy of nothing but death ( Romans 1:32 ).

Election is the only condition that really matters, for someone to be saved.

That He would bother to save anyone after what we've done, amazes me.

Your confused as to who the elect are. The elect are all those who believe and follow God's Word. Nothing more and nothing less *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27. If you do not believe and follow God's Word you are not a part of God's elect *JOHN 3:15-21.

 

[utilyan]

Election is a fact of Scripture.

How many places can you name in God's word where "election", "elect", "ordained", "chosen", "chooses", etc are found?

Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:28-30.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
1 Peter 1:2.
1 Thessalonians 1:4.
Romans 8:33.
Psalms 65:4.
Titus 1:1.

Many more.

"Elect" means "to choose" in the verb sense.
"Elect" means "chosen" in the noun sense.
"Ordained" means "appointed" / "set forth" / "set aside for a special purpose" / "determined".

Do you think "election" relies on man's choices?
Man would not choose God, given the "chance".
Without the new birth, we wouldn't even care about our sins and how they've offended Him.

Election also makes the Lord, God.
He decides what is fair when it comes to bestowing gifts, and saving people from His wrath, not us.
All are condemned, therefore all are worthy of nothing but death ( Romans 1:32 ).

Election is the only condition that really matters, for someone to be saved.

That He would bother to save anyone after what we've done, amazes me.

Election, chosen for salvation, predestined, ordained are all different words with different meanings.

They are not all synonymous. Election has more to do called to service in its my understanding 224 occurrences.

Your gnostic philosophy has trained you to see this word as a holy extra religious word. There is nothing magical about it.
It isn't a God only power-word.

If God baked a cake you would be swearing up and down that only God can BAKE.


Attempt to pull the meaning of the words from scripture your theology will crumble because scripture does not support your distortions.

You were drilled in a philosophy first to make these connections OUTSIDE of scripture. \

Look at your own post: "elect", "ordained", "chosen" You already decided those things mean the same.

BASED ON WHAT VERSE? Based on a TULIP or whatever absurd gnostic TRADITION of men outside of the bible



"That He would bother to save anyone after what we've done, amazes me."


That because evil people tend to be shocked and surprise at God being half as evil when expecting God to completely evil as themselves.

Here on the otherside we are not surprised, shocked or amazed God is the kindness most understanding being.

If God pulled over to pick up a lost dog you would probably SURPRISED again that he is not a jerk. Cause you already made up your mind God wouldn't do that. Your God wouldn't help a hurt muslim on the road, he'd prob run folks over for his own "glory."

 

[37818]

Then what about the woman at Simon's house? She washed the feet of the Lord and dried them with her hair,She kiss His feet Jesus told her that her faith saved her.Luke 7:44-50
MB

Says her faith not her work of faith of washing the feet of the Lord.

 

[37818]

FAITH *JOHN 3:14-21 in God's promises *2 PETER 1:4, (believing God's Word)

REPENTANCE *MATTHEW 3:2; MATTHEW 4:17; LUKE 13:3-5; ACTS 2:38; ACTS 3:19; ACTS 8:32; PROVERBS 28:9-13 (changing your mind to follow Gods Word)

CONFESSION *1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:13 OF SIN *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4

False gospel of trusting in faith and works of faith?

Furthermore repentance precedes the faith, Mark 1:15; 2 Timothy 2:25, ". . . if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; . . ."

". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:: Not of works, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8-9.

Confession is a work of faith which follows faith and the salvation which follows faith without works. ". . . Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; . . ." -- Titus 3:5.

Works which follows the gift of salvation, ". . . For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. . . ." -- Ephesians 2:10. ". . . For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. . . ." -- Philippians 2:14.

God's given grace + given repentance > faith > giving salvation > causing works.

 

[Dave G]

Your confused as to who the elect are. The elect are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

I agree.

They are also those that are foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:28-30 ), chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), chosen "in Him" from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) and whose place in the kingdom of God was prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).

They are the "whosoever believeth" ( John 3:16, John 3:36 ), who endure to the end in their faith ( Matthew 24:13 ).

Nothing more and nothing less *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27.

Definitely more, and nothing less.
The Bible has quite a bit to say about election, and who the elect are.

If you do not believe and follow God's Word you are not a part of God's elect *JOHN 3:15-21.

I agree.

One cannot be one of the elect, and not believe and follow Christ and His precious words.

 

[Dave G]

Your gnostic philosophy has trained you to see this word as a holy extra religious word.

I think you see it as "gnostic", because you don't yet understand it all, Utilyan.

You were drilled in a philosophy first to make these connections OUTSIDE of scripture. \

I've never been trained in philosophy, nor do I care to go that direction.

The furthest I've ever come in college was in electronics.
I'm a simple shade tree car mechanic and former aircraft electrician who has no use for modern philosophy, neither do I trust it...because it is an invention of man's corrupt mind.

I'll trust the Lord, and lean not unto my own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).

What's more ( and I think you will agree ), "gnosticism" is not a biblical term.
It is a philosophical term that has to do with greater truth not being available to someone unless that person is put through the necessary "disciplines" in order to help grasp it...like going to the "guru" on the mountain top, who then trains "apprentices".

But for the sake of a better term:

To the God-hating ( Romans 1:30 ) unbeliever who uses Christ's precious name as a curse word in their every day lives, the word of God is "gnostic".
The Bible says that the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God ( which include both the Gospel and the word of God ), because they are foolishness to him...neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ).
The preaching of the cross is also foolishness to them that perish, while to us which are saved, it is the power of God ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).


So, anything God's word actually states on the page, is automatically rejected by the unbeliever as being "gnostic" ( unable to be understood or believed ), simply because they see it as foolishness.
Election, predestination, calling, justification and many other things are not "gnostic" to the believer, and neither is the preaching of the cross.
The words on the page are believable...to the believer.

They have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" ( Matthew 11:15 ) because it has been given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God ( Matthew 13:10 ), but to others it is not given.

They have had their understanding opened, that they might comprehend the Scriptures with their minds ( Luke 24:45 ).

 

[Dave G]

If God baked a cake you would be swearing up and down that only God can BAKE.

If Scripture says that God is the only one that can truly bake a cake, then I would believe that...even though men might try to bake one.

God's word says that He chooses ( Psalms 65:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )...not men ( Romans 3:10-18 ).

BASED ON WHAT VERSE?

Based on the words of the Bible, Utilyan.
Do you think I get it from outside of the Bible?
I don't.

Put the pieces together, sir.
It's not like the answers aren't there in the pages of His word.
That's where I get them.
Each and every word ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).

You keep arguing "gnosticism" when it comes to election...
I say it is only "gnostic" to the unbeliever.

What's the problem?
You're a believer, correct?

Then to me, it's only a matter of studying His precious words and believing each and every one of them for yourself.
For example:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )

The reason I keep using this verse, is not because it is a "pet verse", but because it is both easy to refer to, and because you don't seem to believe the words, as stated.
The words that clearly state, that as many as were ordained to eternal life ( not everyone who heard those words ), believed.

I only come to one of two possible conclusions when one argues against the very words on the page...

But I'd prefer to come to the conclusion that you are who you say you are, just as everyone on this forum claims to be.
One of Christ's precious sheep, those that have trusted in Him for the forgiveness of their sins.
That is why I keep trying to direct you to the words on the page, Utilyan.


God bless you in your studies, sir.

 

[Alan Gross]

The condition is one must be born again, conditional salvation is serving God after one is... The first is unconditional and who performs the work is God and God alone in the determinate counsel of the Godhead... The second is conditional and called discipleship... Brother Glen

Nothing conditional about Salvation, after Being Born Again, that has to do with Salvation.

I hope that is what you are saying.