Confessions and creeds

[Revmitchell]

Indoctrinations, communicant's classes, waiting periods, signing agreements before membership and like activities are not Scriptural. Receiving members in the Book of Acts was the same day. If one likes creeds and confessions of man made origin, there are Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Episcopal churches down the street.

The problem is scripture does not say this is the only way it should be done.

 

[saturneptune]

The problem is scripture does not say this is the only way it should be done.

Here are some membership requirements that are Biblical. There is not a time element involved.
Trust Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. (John 3:15, Acts 16:30, Romans 3:28, 10:9, Galatians 3:7, Ephesians 2:8-10)
Confess Jesus as Lord Publicly. (Matthew 10:32, Romans 10:9-10)
Repentance. (Luke 13:3, Acts 3:3-8, 19, 2 Corinthians 7:10)
Baptism by Immersion. (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38, 22:16, Romans 6:3-5, Galatiams 3:27, 1 Peter 3:21)

Some confuse membership requirements for expectations of a church member.
Progress in obedience to Christ. (John 14:15)
Worship regularly with the church family. (Psalm 150:1, Ephesians 5:19-20)
Participate regularly in a fellowship group. (Hebrews 10:24-25, Acts 2:42-47)
Serve faithfully in ministry. (1 Peter 4:10)
Support financially the church's ministry by generous proportional giving. (2 Corinthians 9:6-15)
Be Responsive to the church's leadership. (Hebrews 13:17)
Influence your network of friends, relatives, and associates to become Christ's disciples. (Matthew 28:19-20)

Each local church is autonomous and can set their own policy. Each to his own in how he or she reads Scrpiture, but I am not about to serve in a church that has a six week course or the like along with signed documents to agree to a series of man made opinions of Biblical doctrine. Also, I want nothing to do with a local church that either parrots or chants creeds and confessions in Sunday services weekly.

 

[Herald]

I don't know about parroting or chanting creeds or confessions. On occasion we have quoted the 1689 LBC the same way a preacher will use an illustration in a sermon. It helps to bring out the point that, "Listen. Observing the Lord's Day is not unique to our church. Not only does scripture attest to it, but do other confessing churches." It would be a problem if any confession or doctrinal statement was treated as holy writ. Clearly that is not the case.

 

[Herald]

Then again, we are not only a DoG church. We are also Reformed. Many DoG churches will disagree with our practices.

 

[Salty]

...but I am not about to serve in a church that has a six week course or the like along with signed documents to agree to a series of man made opinions of Biblical doctrine...

What would you do if the Lord called you to such a church?

 

[Tom Butler]

Here are some membership requirements that are Biblical. There is not a time element involved.
Trust Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. (John 3:15, Acts 16:30, Romans 3:28, 10:9, Galatians 3:7, Ephesians 2:8-10)
Confess Jesus as Lord Publicly. (Matthew 10:32, Romans 10:9-10)
Repentance. (Luke 13:3, Acts 3:3-8, 19, 2 Corinthians 7:10)
Baptism by Immersion. (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38, 22:16, Romans 6:3-5, Galatiams 3:27, 1 Peter 3:21)

Some confuse membership requirements for expectations of a church member.
Progress in obedience to Christ. (John 14:15)
Worship regularly with the church family. (Psalm 150:1, Ephesians 5:19-20)
Participate regularly in a fellowship group. (Hebrews 10:24-25, Acts 2:42-47)
Serve faithfully in ministry. (1 Peter 4:10)
Support financially the church's ministry by generous proportional giving. (2 Corinthians 9:6-15)
Be Responsive to the church's leadership. (Hebrews 13:17)
Influence your network of friends, relatives, and associates to become Christ's disciples. (Matthew 28:19-20)

Each local church is autonomous and can set their own policy. Each to his own in how he or she reads Scrpiture, but I am not about to serve in a church that has a six week course or the like along with signed documents to agree to a series of man made opinions of Biblical doctrine. Also, I want nothing to do with a local church that either parrots or chants creeds and confessions in Sunday services weekly.

That's a pretty good list. I don't see anything wrong with saying to a prospective member, "Here's what we believe and here's what we practice. These are the obligations you assume when you join us. Do you still want to enter into a covenant relationship with us?"

I do think the church has a teaching obligation toward new Christians who know little or nothing about our doctrines and pratices. We don't have a problem with inviting them to get involved in Suday School, Church Training, Wednesday Bible study. So why not a series of studies on doctrine and practice?

Pastors are doing sermon series all the time. Why not use the BF&M or the LCF as a basis for such a teaching or preaching series? Or whatever doctrinal statment the church has. There's some real meat in there, and all scripturally based.

 

[Yeshua1]

Then again, we are not only a DoG church. We are also Reformed. Many DoG churches will disagree with our practices.

you are calvinistic in NOT just regarding salvation, but you hold to the entire system of calvinism, correct?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Then again, we are not only a DoG church. We are also Reformed. Many DoG churches will disagree with our practices.

Now you have me a tad bit confused.....please clarify for me just what a Doctrines of Grace church is. Could you be referring to Orthodox Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed etc?

Then what is Reformed? And how do you distinguish the difference? For example, a 1689 Confession differs from a Westminster Confession in Baptism & Sacraments vs Ordinances...so which is Reformed? 1689 is Reformed & Doctrines of Grace & OPC is Reformed & WCF.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

you are Calvinistic in NOT just regarding salvation, but you hold to the entire system of Calvinism, correct?

And what is that exactly Yeshua.....the entire system being Calvinistic? To me, infant baptism is Calvinistic. I personally identify as being both baptistic (Believers Baptism) & DoG....however I do not hold to Dispy, Covenant Theology & NCT

 

[Yeshua1]

And what is that exactly Yeshua.....the entire system being Calvinistic? To me, infant baptism is Calvinistic. I personally identify as being both baptistic (Believers Baptism) & DoG....however I do not hold to Dispy, Covenant Theology & NCT

reformed to me would be Baptists holding to JUST DoG of cal theology, while reformed would hold to the total system, such as batism, government, Covenant theology etc!

Example: I hold to Dispy for eschatology, but also hold to DoG regarding how God operates in salvation

Reformed baptist would hold to DoG and also Covenant theology, being A Mil/church government certain way/having Creeds/Confessions etc!

 

[Herald]

Now you have me a tad bit confused.....please clarify for me just what a Doctrines of Grace church is. Could you be referring to Orthodox Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed etc?

Then what is Reformed? And how do you distinguish the difference? For example, a 1689 Confession differs from a Westminster Confession in Baptism & Sacraments vs Ordinances...so which is Reformed? 1689 is Reformed & Doctrines of Grace & OPC is Reformed & WCF.

Baptist Reformed Theology is covenantal and confessional, in addition to the DoG. Notice I did not state "Calvinistic" since we disagree with Calvin on much of his theology.

 

[Herald]

Reformed is not a particular denomination. Reformed Baptists share distinctives of covenant theology, confessionalism, the DoG, and the Regulative Principle of. Worship. Et. al.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Reformed is not a particular denomination. Reformed Baptists share distinctives of covenant theology, confessionalism, the DoG, and the Regulative Principle of. Worship. Et. al.

Fine but I do not hold with Covenant Theology.....nor with Dispy. I find flaws in both.

Ive studied Doctrines of Grace, mostly thru James Montgomery Boyce who persuaded me and have studied Westminster Confessions of Faith while a Presbyterian then 1689 as a Baptist & even took classes at Al Martins Church (Trinity Reformed Baptist @ Montville NJ) in the differences between the two Confessions.

I am also slowly reading (and enjoying) The Marrow of Modern Divinity. My favorite modern theologian is Sinclair Ferguson....& Martyn Lloyd Jones together with Spurgeon & George Whitefield have greatly influenced me.

I am 2-3 years into my Christian walk so I cant & wont limit myself to man-made religion.....I am a radical Christian & so I move beyond the liberal and conservative branches of the church institution and I go back.... back to a fundamental questioning (to the root source). So if I ask what appears to be a stupid question, please forgive me but Im searching for Christs truth & I dig deeply to get to it.

 

[Herald]

Fine but I do not hold with Covenant Theology.....nor with Dispy. I find flaws in both.

Ive studied Doctrines of Grace, mostly thru James Montgomery Boyce who persuaded me and have studied Westminster Confessions of Faith while a Presbyterian then 1689 as a Baptist & even took classes at Al Martins Church (Trinity Reformed Baptist @ Montville NJ) in the differences between the two Confessions.

I am also slowly reading (and enjoying) The Marrow of Modern Divinity. My favorite modern theologian is Sinclair Ferguson....& Martyn Lloyd Jones together with Spurgeon & George Whitefield have greatly influenced me.

I am 2-3 years into my Christian walk so I cant & wont limit myself to man-made religion.....I am a radical Christian & so I move beyond the liberal and conservative branches of the church institution and I go back.... back to a fundamental questioning (to the root source). So if I ask what appears to be a stupid question, please forgive me but Im searching for Christs truth & I dig deeply to get to it.

No problem. I've never assumed I'm in agreement fully with anyone on this board.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No problem. I've never assumed I'm in agreement fully with anyone on this board.

Certainly not "Team Jihad" IE Skan & posse! LOL :laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

Reformed is not a particular denomination. Reformed Baptists share distinctives of covenant theology, confessionalism, the DoG, and the Regulative Principle of. Worship. Et. al.

Reformed is a particular denomination. It is called Presbyterian. There is no debate about it there. Reformed Baptist comes real close to being two words that oppose themselves based on Baptist distinctives. The usual autonomous local Baptist church does not parrot and chant creeds and confessions weekly. Baptist churches usually do not subscribe to elder rule which usually turns into elder worship. Baptists can attempt to mimic Presbyterians all they want, but in the final analysis, will find the two do not mix very well.

 

[Iconoclast]

From a Baptist Cathechism with commentary...by WR.Downing

Some Objections Against Catechizing Answered
OBJECTION ONE: Why, as Baptists, use a catechism? Do not catechisms
belong only to the Romanists, Lutherans or Reformed Christians? We have
only one creed—the Bible! We will not and cannot put any literature on
par with the Scriptures, or add to the Word of God in any way.
ANSWER:
1. Catechizing, or repetitive oral instruction is scriptural. It was given by
Divine mandate in the Old Testament and is ratified in the New
Testament by inspired Apostolic example.
2. This is not a question of adding something to Scripture, but rather the
use of a necessary aid toward a comprehensive grasp of its doctrinal
teaching. God made us rational, morally responsible beings, created in
his image and likeness. We have been created with both the ability and
necessity to organize. An orderly or systematic approach to Divine
truth is a necessity, as seen in the necessary existence of doctrine and
theology. Sadly, many who object to the use of a catechism turn rather
to the very questionable use of other religious teaching materials
which are either doctrinally shallow or unsound.
3. A catechism is an organized elementary approach to the truth of the
Word of God. It is a primary introduction to the doctrinal teaching of
Scripture.
4. There is a great need for all believers to have at least two types of
knowledge concerning the truth of God: First, every young person
should at least have a general acquaintance with Scripture. What many
call “Bible Stories” gives the younger child a general knowledge of
20
the Bible, its historical format, the basic principles of redemptive
history and some knowledge about the various books of the Bible and
their leading characters. Second, every young person should be taught
to understand, think and reason doctrinally from the Scriptures. For
centuries, this has been the purpose of a doctrinally–sound catechism.
Catechizing ceased among our Baptist forefathers when they no longer
emphasized their doctrinal distinctives and Confessions of Faith. In
Sunday schools catechisms were replaced by “Quarterlies,” which
have proven, we believe, to be vastly inferior.
5. Baptists used catechisms extensively and with much spiritual profit
until the past century. This objection itself demonstrates the sad
departure of some Baptists from their own doctrinal distinctives and
practice, and the ignorance of some modern Baptists concerning their
own history and spiritual heritage. Following are some of the more
well–known catechisms written and used by Baptists:
• Henry Jessey, Particular Baptist, A Catechism for Babes, or Little
Ones, 1652.
• Hercules Collins, Particular Baptist, The Orthodox Catechism
(adapted from the Heidelberg Catechism), 1680.
• Thomas Grantham, General Baptist, St. Paul’s Catechism (based
on the six principles of Hebrews 6), 1687.
• Benjamin Keach and William Collins, The Baptist Catechism,
1693.
• The Philadelphia Baptist Association of Particular Baptists
published a catechism appended to their Philadelphia Confession
of Faith, 1742.
• William Gadsby, Gospel Standard Baptist, published a catechism
entitled The Things Most Surely Believed Among Us, 1809.
• C. H. Spurgeon published A Baptist Catechism (compiled from
the Westminster Shorter Catechism and Keach’s Baptist
Catechism), 1855.
• The Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention
published two catechisms: the first by J. P. Boyce, A Brief
Catechism of Bible Doctrine (1864) and the second by John A.
Broadus (1892). The latter work was jointly published by both the
Southern Baptist Convention and the American Baptist
Publication Society.

 

[Luke2427]

I wasn't attempting to create a new DoG vs FW debate. I simply wanted to get feedback on the use of creeds and confessions. One purpose they serve is to force serious study before subscribing to one(s). When you have to fly your colors up the mast you should take it seriously.

You're exactly right.

There are few things as detestable as one who lacks the courage to systematize his theology and fly up a flag that can be criticised.

It is sloppy and lazy and insulting to say, "I AM NOT A CALVINIST OR AN ARMINIAN- I BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!"

It is equally as spineless to call oneself a "non-cal".

There may not be a more meaningless word in the world today.

Atheists are non-cals.

Satan worshipers are non-cals.

Everybody on earth not a Calvinist, every demon in hell is non-cal.

"Non-cal" is so broad it is UTTERLY meaningless.

It tells us NOTHING about what you are.

It just tells us what you are NOT.

It is like saying, "I am non-elephant."

You could be anything from a paramecium to a black-hole.

Nothing could be more cowardly than lacking the courage to say what you ARE.

Nothing could be more pusillanimous than identifying yourself simply by what you are not.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is like saying, "I am non-elephant."

You could be anything from a paramecium to a black-hole.

Nothing could be more cowardly than lacking the courage to say what you ARE.

Nothing could be more pusillanimous than identifying yourself simply by what you are not.
__________________

lol....you are on a roll tonight.....lol

 

[Luke2427]

lol....you are on a roll tonight.....lol

Had an hour long deacon's meeting after church this evening. That's what those do to me!

LOL