Confessions of a Former Worship Leader

[Joshua Rhodes]

Quote by Dale:

Maybe he caught himself enjoying CCM!

I sincerely doubt that Dale... but who knows?

Quote by Aaron:

Hey look! It's Beaner and Bonga Dale back again! I knew as soon as I started resurrecting some old discussions you'd pop back in.

I sure miss the ever ethically superior Daniel.

LOL Aaron!

In His Grip,
joshua

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Hey look! It's Beaner and Bonga Dale back again! I knew as soon as I started resurrecting some old discussions you'd pop back in.

I sure miss the ever ethically superior Daniel.

Hi Aaron,
Nice to hear from you.
Thanks for that edifying comment about Daniel. I am certain that edification was your precise motive. I know that he is still on my prayer list, is he on yours?

Have a great week.

BiR

 

[Aaron]

Oh, Beaner! I had almost forgotten how pious you are. I was aware of the little anti-Aaron PM exchanges with Daniel. He couldn't resist letting me know through email that none of you thought I was saved.

So, why do you expect me to have a prayer list?

He also said y'all'd begun a prayer vigil for me. Surely I'm still on yours, aren't I?

 

[Daniel]

Hey, guys. I am still out here. God has humbled me severely, but that was very needed. I am the first to admit my arrogant pomposity, particularly to you, Aaron.

Back to the original topic of this post. I had breakfast with Dan Lucarini in Springfield, OH. It was a very refreshing, open time of edification, refreshment, and challenge. He is very capable of holding his own as I said many moons ago.

He is as humble and gracious in person as he is in his writings. I wish all of you could meet him at a Bob Evans as I did and dialogue with him.

 

[TexasSky]

Aaron -

Please stop making insulting remarks and snide comments about Daniel. That is very unChristian behavior. I understand that in the heat of debate people say things that can be insulting, but you aren't in the heat of debate. You are just being rude.

 

[Dale McNamee]

Hi Dan!

I'm glad to see you back on the board!

In Christ,
Dale

 

[Daniel]

Thanks, Dale...I won't be able to do much on the board, but I will get in from time to time. I see that nothing has changed. It's the same old same old...I expected that. This music issue is unsolvable this side of glory. The only value I see in debating the topic is the sharpening of your personal position and the opportunity to think outside the box. That's a good thing.

The flames and insults are definitely not productive and bespeak a person of lesser skills of logic and a weaker command of the English language.

Hopefully we can take the high ground and not stoop to the works of the flesh...here's hoping!

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Oh, Beaner! I had almost forgotten how pious you are. I was aware of the little anti-Aaron PM exchanges with Daniel. He couldn't resist letting me know through email that none of you thought I was saved.

So, why do you expect me to have a prayer list?

He also said y'all'd begun a prayer vigil for me. Surely I'm still on yours, aren't I?

Greetings Aaron,

Thank you for your post. I appreciate your gracious comments.

Have a great week,
BiR

 

[Aaron]

Beaner, I'm here for ya, man.

Daniel! 'sup?

Actually, if rock music is a questionable matter, there are some awfully straightforward admonitions about the proper response to the controversy, to wit, those with no conscience toward it as an evil thing should defer to those who do. But then, no one is really willing to do that, are they?

Sky, you needed to board this train at the station.

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Aaron,

You wrote: "Daniel! 'sup?

Actually, if rock music is a questionable matter, there are some awfully straightforward admonitions about the proper response to the controversy, to wit, those with no conscience toward it as an evil thing should defer to those who do. But then, no one is really willing to do that, are they?"

But, you only quote one side of the argument why should the "offended,weaker brother " impose his values on those who don't share his view?

Here's Romans 14: 1-23:

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence . 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Please note that Paul's admonition is aimed at purposefully offending another brother. And that can go both ways. The "weaker brother" can use guilt and twist Scriptures to impose his will and offend as well.

Out in the secular world, the same behavior is exhibited.Militant vegetarians,PETA,militant secularists,anti-drinking/smoking zealots,etc. come to mind. All it takes is ONE person to say that they're "offended" by the 10 Commandments,
Christian music at Christmas,etc.,to have Christian expression expunged from the public square!

Regarding the "CCM" controversy,the second part of Romans 14:14 states that " but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

So then,the persons who feel that "CCM" is sinful avoid it for themselves and not issue a blanket statement condemning those who feel that "CCM" is not sinful.

Remember: " In essentials unity,
In doubtful things liberty,
But in all things love."

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Daniel]

We must also remember that the Greek word 'offend' is a strong word that most literally means "to cause to stumble [with the implication of a significant fall]"

Guys like Aaron are not offended in the above literal meaning. He is quite strong in his faith. I don't believe our music choices are any problem to a giant like he.

 

[wtrsju]

Dale,

Great post, could not of put it better myself. I was on the fence in this discussion and after your post I feel better about my stance. Thanks,

Justin

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Beaner, I'm here for ya, man.

Daniel! 'sup?

Actually, if rock music is a questionable matter, there are some awfully straightforward admonitions about the proper response to the controversy, to wit, those with no conscience toward it as an evil thing should defer to those who do. But then, no one is really willing to do that, are they?

Sky, you needed to board this train at the station.

Greetings Aaron,

Thank you for your post. I appreciate your gracious comments.

Have a great week,
BiR

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Daniel:
We must also remember that the Greek word 'offend' is a strong word that most literally means "to cause to stumble [with the implication of a significant fall]"

You're right. Issues of conscience are not every trifling sensitivity. They are those issues by which someone would be emboldened to violate his own conscience (i.e., not completely sure he isn't sinning) and thereby sin, because he saw someone who he thought more knowledgeable eating meat offered to an idol.

And the issue of rock music in the church would certainly qualify if it is indeed a questionable matter.

Guys like Aaron are not offended in the above literal meaning. He is quite strong in his faith. I don't believe our music choices are any problem to a giant like he.

You're right here, too. I am not emboldened to violate my conscience by your actions.

However, many would be, but you wouldn't be charitable enough to give it up for them either. Would you?

But...

Music isn't a questionable matter. It's black and white. There are good and evil forms, and it's only in the last few decades that the issue has been clouded by ignorance and superstition.

 

[Aaron]

Bonga Dale, I noticed you wouldn't highlight verse 15.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Aaron:

Music isn't a questionable matter. It's black and white. There are good and evil forms, and it's only in the last few decades that the issue has been clouded by ignorance and superstition.

I've heard this before, but I've yet to encounter such a thing. Could you point some evil music out to me so that I might recognize it for future reference?

 

[Daniel]

I know we've been down this road before, but chapter and verse, please, Aaron. I am not very hopeful, but maybe you've come across something since I was last on the board. (?)

As for giving up certain music for the truly weaker brother, yes, I would. Within my own family there were differences. I was very willing to be gracious and sensitive to those family members who disagreed with my music postion by not playing/listening to certain forms of CCM in their presence. This was the gracious spirit of courtesy that we are commanded to exercise in the scriptures. The non-CCM members of the family were never emboldened to listen to music outside their box; I just had no desire to cause contention within my family by pushing CCM, even though I was that proverial "head of the home."

Since the Bible graciously did not address musical styles, there is the gracious exercise of liberty allowed in this area of Christian music. That's how we operated and kept respectful of each other.

Operating with these principles in minds is always the basis on which I seek to operate with those who disagree with me such as Aaron. I feel the old Daniel (pre-regenerate) would attack Aaron rather than respond in the spirit of Christ. Now, lest even that sentence sound pious, let me hasten to say that I am very aware that I am only a sinner saved by grace and only able to exerecise any Christian grace by the power of the Holy Spirit living in me. He alone deserves the praise and glory, not me.

[ July 26, 2005, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Daniel ]

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Justin,

You wrote:

Dale,

Great post, could not of put it better myself. I was on the fence in this discussion and after your post I feel better about my stance. Thanks,

Justin

Thank you for your kind words and I'm glad to have helped you "get off the fence"!

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Aaron,

You wrote:

Bonga Dale, I noticed you wouldn't highlight verse 15.

I didn't,because you would. That's the main support for your position.

Likewise, I did not see you comment on the highlighted passages either.

I've been reading Scripture on Christian liberty (1 Cor.10,Colossians 2,Galatians 5) and other Christian authors http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1667.htm

http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/chrs-lib.htm

http://www.rtrc.net/documents/wcf/hodge/wcfaah20.htm

I agree with Scripture when it says that I should not use my liberty in Christ to insult or cause someone to sin. But the same Scriptures say that I should work to edidy that weaker brother and bring him to the place where he can grow into a mature Christian.

From John MacArthur's article: "What Is Christian Liberty?":

b) Don't cause others to stumble

Paul cautioned the Romans by saying, "Let us not, therefore, judge one another any more; but judge this, rather: that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way" (v. 13). Verse 21 takes that general principle and particularizes it: "It is good neither to eat meat, nor to drink wine, nor anything by which thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." Although few today would be offended by eating foods offered to idols, there are some people who might be offended by people who drink wine. One of the reasons I don't drink is that it will inevitably make someone stumble. Causing someone to stumble means halting the spiritual progress of a Christian by doing something in front of him that his conscience doesn't allow him to do. You can also offend him and jeopardize your testimony, causing him to think less of you as a Christian because you have failed to lovingly make consideration for his immaturity. If he has stumbled and become offended, he will probably be "made weak" by falling further back into legalism as he observes your careless use of liberty.

(3) The conclusion

(a) Evaluating what is important

Paul said, "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy food, now walkest thou not in love. Destroy not him with thy food, for whom Christ died" (vv. 14-15). Gradually bring a weaker Christian to the place where he understands "nothing is unclean of itself." Jesus loved him enough to die for him, so don't show a lack of love by exercising your liberty to the point where you destroy your testimony and cripple him by pushing him further into legalism. Paul continued, "The kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.... For food destroy not the work of God" (vv. 17, 20).

(b) Edifying those who are weak

Paul made a concluding exhortation, saying, "We, then, that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbor for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself" (15:1-3). Christian liberty does not mean we are free to injure our brother by doing whatever we want. We are free to lovingly serve that brother. There are some things I can do in the so-called "gray areas" that are not wrong, but they appear to be wrong to some people. So I don't do those things because I don't want to consciously offend my brother. That would be an abuse of the liberty God gave me. However, if you misuse your liberty by living it up and drinking and smoking and gambling in Las Vegas, there can be some destructive consequences.

While I agree with Mr. MacArthur's points,I wonder if in not offending by actual or perceived behavior,I'm allowing a "weaker brother" to remain weak? Isn't there a similar onus on him to become mature?

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Travelsong]

No, we must accept and even encourage others to be weak so that we can follow a set of completely fabricated legalistic standards. That way we all feel extra holy.