Conflict between OT priests and OT prophets?

[The Biblicist]

So, you offer quotes, and I'll do the same, the first three directly from the mouths of God and Jesus.

When anyone is forced to PITTING scripture against scripture as their ONLY response then it is obious their interpretations they are trying to defend are false.

So, God desires mercy and not sacrifice. Are you saying God was not speaking truth, or that He did not say that?

No, I am not saying God is lying. I am saying you are not speaking the truth but are misrepresenting and perverting what God says and means according to the context of each of these verses.

For example, look at the immediate context of Matthew 9:13

11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

He was addressing those who saw themselves as not merely more righteous than others but who did not think they needed salvation at all - self-righteous hypocrits who performed every detail of the Law but whose hearts were wicked. Who were clean OUTWARDLY but inwardly were corrupted - HYPOCRITS!!

Every single text you use is in this very same context of HYPOCRISY or worse yet inward and outward ungodliness but still obseving the sacrifices - utter hypocrisy!

He is contextually saying God desires mercy rather than HYPOCRITICAL sacrifices. In other words, the heart must be first right or the act is rejected by God because it is HYPOCRITICAL!

 

[The Biblicist]

When anyone is forced to PITTING scripture against scripture as their ONLY response then it is obious their interpretations they are trying to defend are false.




No, I am not saying God is lying. I am saying you are not speaking the truth but are misrepresenting and perverting what God says and means according to the context of each of these verses.

For example, look at the immediate context of Matthew 9:13

11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

He was addressing those who saw themselves as not merely more righteous than others but who did not think they needed salvation at all - self-righteous hypocrits who performed every detail of the Law but whose hearts were wicked. Who were clean OUTWARDLY but inwardly were corrupted - HYPOCRITS!!

Every single text you use is in this very same context of HYPOCRISY or worse yet inward and outward ungodliness but still obseving the sacrifices - utter hypocrisy!

He is contextually saying God desires mercy rather than HYPOCRITICAL sacrifices. In other words, the heart must be first right or the act is rejected by God because it is HYPOCRITICAL!

Mark 2:44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.


Michael, Jesus commanded this leper to obey the instructions of Leviticus 14 which required the bloody sacrifice of a bird for cleansing of a leper.

Do you believe Christ sinned by commanding him to offer such a bloody sacrifcie?

Do you believe Christ was commanding this man to conform to paganism?

Do you believe Christ was commanding this person to disobey those scriptures you quote?

 

[Yeshua1]

So, you offer quotes, and I'll do the same, the first three directly from the mouths of God and Jesus.

Matthew 9:13

Matthew 12:7

Jeremiah 7: 22,23

Hosea 6:6

Hosea 8: 11-13

1 Samuel 15:22

Psalm 40: 6-8

Psalm 50: 9-15

Psalm 51: 15-17

Isaiah 1: 10-20

Isaiah 66: 1-4

Amos 5: 21,22

Micah 6: 6-8

So, God desires mercy and not sacrifice. Are you saying God was not speaking truth, or that He did not say that?

God still needed to have provision made for the sins of his people to be fully atoned for, and the sacrifices in the OT were to point towards the final sacrifice of jesus as the Sin bearer, whose death provided for full atonement for His people, that he in his own body bore the full penalty of the Sin debt owed to the father by sinners!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Again, I pose this question to Biblicist and all who believe as he does regarding the issue (and I notice that neither he nor anyone else has answered it yet):

"......let's see what you really believe and if your actions would be consistent with your stated beliefs:

If Jesus had not come, raise your hand if you would be out cutting animals' throats so God could forgive you of your sins?"

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, I pose this question to Biblicist and all who believe as he does regarding the issue (and I notice that neither he nor anyone else has answered it yet):

"......let's see what you really believe and if your actions would be consistent with your stated beliefs:

If Jesus had not come, raise your hand if you would be out cutting animals' throats so God could forgive you of your sins?"

You are just plainly being dishonest. I have answered this question directly and so has one other person. However, you have yet to respond to the overwhelming evidence against this position.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You are just plainly being dishonest. I have answered this question directly and so has one other person. However, you have yet to respond to the overwhelming evidence against this position.

Please point that out then. I have read back several pages and cannot find it.

 

[The Biblicist]

Please point that out then. I have read back several pages and cannot find it.

Post #35 by Billwald
Post #52 by The Biblicist

I also believe you asked this same question on another thread and it was responded to by several the very same way.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Post #35 by Billwald
Post #52 by The Biblicist

I also believe you asked this same question on another thread and it was responded to by several the very same way.

I'll check these out and get back to you.

Okay, I have read them. Id be interested to know the reasoning behind Bill's post -- why he would think that animal sacrifices were necessary for the first century Jew but not the twentieth century Jew.

And I don't see where you answered the question in the post of yours that you referenced.

 

[OldRegular]

Again, I pose this question to Biblicist and all who believe as he does regarding the issue (and I notice that neither he nor anyone else has answered it yet):

"......let's see what you really believe and if your actions would be consistent with your stated beliefs:

If Jesus had not come, raise your hand if you would be out cutting animals' throats so God could forgive you of your sins?"

Face it MW! You are rejecting an essential teaching of Scripture. You deny the necessity of the sacrificial system in the Old Testament and the necessity of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. I have posted the following before but obviously you read nothing from Scripture that is contrary your unbelief.

If you would take time to read the book of Hebrews from a Christian perspective you could easily understand the necessity of the sacrificial system instituted by God for Israel but also that Jesus Christ Himself was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

Hebrews 10:1-12
1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

I know that you like to deny the necessity of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ but Scripture says differently. Dying of old age doesn't cut it!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Face it MW! You are rejecting an essential teaching of Scripture. You deny the necessity of the sacrificial system in the Old Testament and the necessity of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. I have posted the following before but obviously you read nothing from Scripture that is contrary your unbelief.

I am rejecting an essential teaching of paganism.

I do not deny the necessity of the death of Jesus. If you want to believe that God beat Jesus, tortured him, and killed Him instead of us out of vengefulness and to appease His anger, it is you who has the problem. This view was unknown until Calvin. And it's no coincidence that it was contrived by a legalist and murderer.

 

[The Biblicist]

Mark 2:44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.


Michael, Jesus commanded this leper to obey the instructions of Leviticus 14 which required the bloody sacrifice of a bird for cleansing of a leper.

Do you believe Christ sinned by commanding him to offer such a bloody sacrifcie?

Do you believe Christ was commanding this man to conform to paganism?

Do you believe Christ was commanding this person to disobey those scriptures you quote?

Michael if you are going to claim that the sacrificial system in the Old and New Testament is of pagan origin then please answer the above post.

 

[OldRegular]

I am rejecting an essential teaching of paganism.

That is a blasphemous lie and I think you should be banned from this Forum as a heretic.

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I do not deny the necessity of the death of Jesus.

You have denied the necessity of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the thread Atonement Theories .. http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1907958.

The entire life of Jesus -- His Incarnation, ministry, death and resurrection -- was the basis of our reconciliation with God. Why does it matter so much to some how He died? Is it not enough that He died and rose again? If Jesus had come here as a human being and died of old age and rose again, would the at-one-ment, the reconciliation, been any less real, effective, or provided for?

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If you want to believe that God beat Jesus, tortured him, and killed Him instead of us out of vengefulness and to appease His anger, it is you who has the problem. This view was unknown until Calvin. And it's no coincidence that it was contrived by a legalist and murderer.

It was sinners who

beat Jesus, tortured him, and killed Him

and by denying His sacrificial death you still are, as well as "Christus Victor" whose mantra you like to spout.

 

[billwald]

Well, if one accepts the Genesis myth as history then one must conclude that all sacrifices have a Jewish origin. Only we "old earthers" can propose a pagan origin.<G>

 

[OldRegular]

Well, if one accepts the Genesis myth as history then one must conclude that all sacrifices have a Jewish origin. Only we "old earthers" can propose a pagan origin.<G>

Then you are dishonest about the following statement from your bio!

Jesus\'es teachings are trustworthy

Actually the sacrifices don't have a Jewish origin. They originate with God. The first blood sacrifice was performed by God to cover the sin of Adam and Eve.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, if one accepts the Genesis myth as history then one must conclude that all sacrifices have a Jewish origin. Only we "old earthers" can propose a pagan origin.<G>

The book of Hebrews makes it clear the sacrificial system originated with God (Heb. 11:4; Heb 8-10).

Jesus as God the Son confirms the sacrificial system (Lk. 5:12-15).

The temple and sacrifical system can be seen behind the imagery in the book of Revelation.

The language of Peter gives credence to the sacrificial system.

All the prophets and historical books after Moses give historical validity to the sacrificial system.

 

[OldRegular]

The book of Hebrews makes it clear the sacrificial system originated with God (Heb. 11:4; Heb 8-10).

Jesus as God the Son confirms the sacrificial system (Lk. 5:12-15).

The temple and sacrifical system can be seen behind the imagery in the book of Revelation.

The language of Peter gives credence to the sacrificial system.

All the prophets and historical books after Moses give historical validity to the sacrificial system.

This thread distinguishes clearly between those who believe the Bible and those who don't!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

This thread distinguishes clearly between those who believe the Bible and those who don't!

And you are a guilty liar who does what you accuse others of doing -- picking and choosing what scriptures you believe.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That is a blasphemous lie and I think you should be banned from this Forum as a heretic.


Quite fond of throwing around the word "heretic", aren't you? You would have fit right in if you had lived at the time of the Reformation when your spiritual ancestors were torturing and murdering for Jesus.

YOU are the liar and false accuser; you continually misrepresent my views; oh, it's subtle -- and that's how demons work.
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You have denied the necessity of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the thread Atonement Theories .. http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1907958.



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It was sinners who and by denying His sacrificial death you still are, as well as "Christus Victor" whose mantra you like to spout.

I'm glad that I don't have to answer to you, accuser; you are not God, and I am thankful you're not a moderator. You're too much of a foaming-at-the-mouth, hating, lying fanatic to be a moderator.

And I hope you don't ever get banned, no matter how much you lie and accuse. I want to see you keep piling up those coals on your head higher and higher.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Some more scriptures:

Isaiah Chapter 1:11 (KJV) "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats." Verses 11-20 are also good and instructive.

Psalms 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

Psalms 50 (KJV) 7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God. 8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me. 9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds. 10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. 11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. 12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. 13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? 14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High: 15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.


And besides that, even within the sacrificial system, there are numerous verses where God is represented as accepting other things as a sacrifice or sin offering other than animals.

I still affirm the words of Jesus in Matthew 9:13 and 12:7.

In the words of the Psalmist, some here need to have their ears opened.

Personally, if anyone wants to believe that God is a ritual slaughterer, go ahead; it's no skin off my nose. But I do mind being labeled a heretic and blasphemer for what I believe. No one has a right to do that.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Found this interesting article:

https://rennyo01.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/a-case-for-christian-vegetarianism/