Confused, did the early christians accept the non-canonized books?

[Inquiring Mind]

First and foremost because the Bible is my final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. I do not look to tradition, whether RCC or otherwise to shape my beliefs.

Only problem is that no where in the Bible does it say that it is the final authority.

1. How do you know that those in heaven can't hear prayers? Even if they could they can't do anything about it.

They can't? They can added our petitions to their own. The prayers of the righteous accomplish much. Revelations says the prayers of the saints are offered up with incense. Would you deny that the saints in heaven are praying for us that are down here?

Only God can answer prayer. Praying to any creature other than God alone is idolatry

. It's still a matter on the definition of worship

Everytime Israel went praying to other gods, like Baal, it was idolatry.

I would read the scriptures again. Worship is used instead of praying.

The same holds true for Mary and other so-called saints. Sinners can't answer prayers. Mary and all others in heaven are sinners, but sinners who have been saved by the grace of God. They are also dead. Their bodies remain in the grave to this day. Only Christ has risen from the dead. Do you deny this? Do you deny that the resurrection is yet to come? Would you care to go to a cemetary and start digging up graves and tell me what you would find? Do you think that you would find the bodies of dead people? They are dead precisely because the resurrection has not taken place.

SDA mentality again. The body dies and is left behind. The soul goes to hell or heaven. The final resurrection is just the reconstruction of the physical body that will be reunited with the Soul.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Even the Bible defines it as dead.
It is against Scripture to pray to the dead. It is called necromancy. It is sin.
The only one that can hear prayer and do anything about it is God.
Why do you think that God commands you to confess your sin to Him before He will answer prayer. What good would it do to confess it to another spirit. That is dabbling with the occult.

Yes the body is dead. The Soul is very much alive, either suffering in hell or enjoying the prescense of God in heaven.

The Bible only condemns CONSULTING mediums for contacting the dead. No one is consulting the dead when they are being beseeched to pray for us.

Actually if we do a search on the word confess, the results are interesting:

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Joh 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

Joh 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

Act 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Jam 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE WHERE WE FIND TO WHOM WE ARE TO CONFESS

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.THIS ONE MIGHT BE CLOSE, BUT YOU HAVE TO INSERT EITHER JESUS OR GOD. BUT SINCE THIS FOLLOWS AFTER JAMES' WRITING BOTH PHYSICALLY AND CHRONOLOGICALLY, THEN IT COULD ONLY MEAN TNE ANOTHER.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

4. He is omnipotent (all powerful). God can do anything that is not contrary to his nature. For example he cannot lie for that would be contrary to his nature to do so. He demonstrated that through his works. He calmed the sea, walked on water, raised the dead, etc.

That's a red herring. God can't lie? You might as well say "God can't kill" Contrary to his nature? You claim to know the nature of God? God is God. If God lies, he does so for his own reasons. It follows the axiom of "Do what I say and not as I do". God is not answerable to us. RED HERRING

 

[Inquiring Mind]

That is only one small part of worship. Have you ever been to a "worship service" and have seen what is involved in what some believe to be worship?
Worship: How do dictionaries define the word:

Worship:
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe –ship

reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence

You had resort to man-made definitions of worship. TRADITIONS OF MAN! I used the Greek from Strongs concordance.

Lets look at it again:

G4352 προσκυνέω proskuneō pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

You can either use the modern traditions of men or you can you the original definition that God inspired man with.

But if you want to adhere to the modern traditions of men, let us do so, but fully.

synonym
1. a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the language, as joyful, elated, glad.
2. a word or expression accepted as another name for something, as Arcadia for pastoral simplicity; metonym.

Synomyms for Worship: admire, adore, adulate, bow down, canonize, celebrate, chant, deify, dote on, esteem, exalt, extol, glorify, idolize, laud, love, magnify, praise, pray to, respect, revere, reverence, sanctify, sing, venerate

Are everyone of those regulated to ONLY GOD? How do you act around your boss at work? How do you act around your own Pastor? I guess you can't love your wife. I guess you can't celebrate her birthday or anniversary. I guess you must refuse to show respect to your boss and your pastor.

Roget's list these first:

Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source
Main Entry: worship
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: honoring
Synonyms: adoration, adulation, awe, beatification, benediction, chapel, church service, deification, devotion, exaltation, genuflection, glorification, glory, homage, honor, idolatry, idolization, invocation, laudation, love, offering, praise, prayer, prostration, regard, respect, reverence, rite, ritual, service, supplication, veneration, vespers
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source
Main Entry: worship
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: honor
Synonyms: admire, adore, adulate, bow down, canonize, celebrate, chant, deify, dote on, esteem, exalt, extol, glorify, idolize, laud, love, magnify, praise, pray to, respect, revere, reverence, sanctify, sing, venerate
Antonyms: dishonor, disrespect, hate
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Synomym of Pray:

Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source
Main Entry: pray
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: plead
Synonyms: adjure, appeal, ask, beseech, brace, commune with, crave, cry for, entreat, implore, importune, invocate, invoke, petition, recite, request, say, solicit, sue, supplicate, urge
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source
Main Entry: appeal
Part of Speech: verb 1
Definition: request
Synonyms: address, adjure, advance, apply, ask, beg, beseech, bid, call, call upon, claim, contest, crave, demand, entreat, hit on, implore, importune, petition, plead, pray, propose, proposition, question, refer, require, resort to, solicit, strike, submit, sue, supplicate, urge
Antonyms: deny, disclaim, refuse, revoke
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

I believe the RCC and EOC and others utilize the definition of ASKING, BESEECHING.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

5. He is omnipresent (everywhere at once). Mary cannot be everywhere and thus cannot hear the prayers of one billion Catholics world wide. Only God is omnipresent. This is where Catholics attribute Godhood to Mary. Omnipresence belongs to God alone.
John 3:13 Christ talking to Nicodemus says that he is in Heaven while speaking to Nicodemus at the same time. In the Great Commission (Mat.28:20) He promises to be with us to the end of the world. He will be everywhere with every believer in every age until the end of the world. He is omnipresent.

You've taken that verse out of context.

Is God omnipresent?

Atheist Arguemnet: Atheists would say no. If God was truely omnipresent, he would not need angels to do his bidding. He would do it himself. He would not need angels to look over and protect angels:

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. By this verse, we could say that angels are omnipresent. They are able to be a guardian of a child and still see the face of God. Here is a footnote on this verse: 9 [10] Their angels in heaven . . . my heavenly Father: for the Jewish belief in angels as guardians of nations and individuals, see Daniel 10:13, 20-21; Tobit 5:4-7; 1QH 5:20-22; as intercessors who present the prayers of human beings to God, see Tobit 13:12, 15. The high worth of the little ones is indicated by their being represented before God by these heavenly beings.

As for those in heaven? Read Luke 20:
34 And Jesus said to them, The sons of this world are married and have wives;
35 But those to whom is given the reward of the world to come, and to come back from the dead, have no wives, and are not married;
36 And death has no more power over them, for they are equal to the angels, and are sons of God, being of those who will come back from the dead. THOSE THAT DO NOT COME BACK FROM THE DEAD ARE IN HELL.
37 But even Moses made it clear that the dead come back to life, saying, in the story of the burning thorn-tree, The Lord, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

3. He is omniscient (all-knowing). If you remember Scripture:
Jesus knew from the beginning who should betray him. Why? He is all-knowing.
When he healed the man in the synagogue, he said to the Pharisees: "Why reason in your hearts..." How did he know what was in their hearts? He is all-knowing.

bUT HE HAS HIS LIMITATIONS, HE DOES NOT KNOW WHEN HIS FATHER WILL SEND HIM BACK TO US. THAT IS ONLY KNOWN TO GOD THE FATHER.

 

[DHK]

You've taken that verse out of context.
Is God omnipresent?

You question the omnipresence of God.

God can't lie? You might as well say "God can't kill" Contrary to his nature? You claim to know the nature of God? God is God. If God lies, he does so for his own reasons.

You say that God is a sinful God.

DHK says:
"1. Mary cannot be omniscient (as you say) to hear all the prayers direcected to her by the one billion Catholics world wide."
Inquiring Mind says:
"How do you know that those in heaven can't hear prayers? "

You deny that God alone is omniscient.

In effect you deny the omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence of God. I feel sorry for the puppet god that you serve. He is certainly not the God of the Bible.
DHK

 

[Claudia_T]

Inquiring Mind:

I noticed you quote people and dont tell who you are quoting from.

 

[Eliyahu]

Hi Claudia,
Good to see you here again.
Keep up the good posts in the Lord.

 

[Eliyahu]

We are approaching the end of the thread.
Despite all the good explanations against goddess worship, Veneration of Mary as Queen of Heaven which was severely condemned in the Bible ( Jeremiah 44), people will continue to exalt the dead woman Mary which is the decoration and beatification of the goddess worship in the form of Christianity, and some of them are here on this board, on this thread.
It is a great pity that such people will go to their destination, where the most idol worshippers go eventually.

Mary worship doesn't end by itself, but is connected with all the paganism, unbelief, disobedience, and therefore it is not strange if we notice such people are doing or claiming, idol worship, goddess worship, papacy, infant baptism, indulgence business, inquisition, killing Christian believers, compulsory celibacy, weekly mass where priests ask God for the forgiveness repeatedly without bringing the Gospel that such sins were forgiven already at the Cross, Confession to the priests ( not to God), Clergy system while Bible doesn't separate between clergy and laypeople,
prayer to the dead, prayer for the dead, purgatory while the Robber at the Cross went to the Paradise directly, Limbo ( sometimes Pope can abolish it ! Why doesn't he abolish the Hell as well ?), etc., etc.

We'd better remember the OP once again. Non-canonized books are quite important to support such paganism. As the whole thoughts and literatures by human beings are connected with paganism, as long as they are not the Words of God, any human literature ( not the Word of God) will be useful to support Catholic Paganism.
Early Christians accepted the Bible which is the Old Testament today, and the list of such Bible didn't include the Apocrypha.
This was confirmed by Josephus since he mentioned 22 books for Bible.
In ancient times, minor prophets were mentioned 12 prophets which was considered as one book. Samuel I, II were considered as one book, Kings I,II were considered as one book, Chronicles I, II were as one book, Nehemiah and Ezra were consided as one book.
There was no Apocrypha mentioned by Josephus.
This means that the Bible canon was excluding Apocrypha even before the Council of Jamnea around 90 AD. and the Jamneah Council just confirmed what was believed among the people and among the Rabbis.

The criteria would have been the same as we know today.
1) The writers of Apocrypha didn't claim that they received the instruction from God that they should write such letters or writings.
They never claimed that the words were received from God.
2) They were not written in the language of then God's people, which was Hebrew.
3) Jesus never quoted any of Apocrypha
4) Disciples never quoted them ( even though some argue against this especially on Jude)
5) They teach immoral things like telling lies, assassination, suicide, prayer to the dead, etc.
6) The contents disagree sometimes.
7) They were never used in the Jewish meetings or services.
8) The style of the AP were different from other Bible which are the style of reporting and witnessing, and they are like story telling like fables or history books.

The reason why Catholic do not include Esdras 3 and 4 among Apocrypha in their bible is because they condemn Idolatry and goddess worship severely and therefore RC omit them for their convenience.

Calling Mary as Mother of God is not found in the Bible anywhere.
Calling Mary as Mother of God while they don't believe Mary is Mother of God the Father excludes God the Father from the Godheads and from Deity. It is an insult to God and therefore God hates it!
God hates the people who call Mary as Mother of God. Anathema !!!

 

[Gold Dragon]

Inquiring Mind:

I noticed you quote people and dont tell who you are quoting from.

I don't think he's discovered the quote button beneath posts that automatically does this for you.

 

[DHK]

bUT HE HAS HIS LIMITATIONS, HE DOES NOT KNOW WHEN HIS FATHER WILL SEND HIM BACK TO US. THAT IS ONLY KNOWN TO GOD THE FATHER.

Christ (who is God) has no limitations. Now that He is in heaven He certainly knows the exact time of his return. Only when he was on his earth did he voluntarily accept to keep that information in his father's hand. He came to this earth to do the will of His Father. He was perfect man and perfect God at the same time. There is nothing that can be taken away from His deity. He knows all, has power over all, is present everywhre. These attributes Mary can never attain to. She is not a god. She is not to be worshiped as the Catholics do.
DHK

 

[Eliyahu]

Christ (who is God) has no limitations. Now that He is in heaven He certainly knows the exact time of his return. Only when he was on his earth did he voluntarily accept to keep that information in his father's hand. He came to this earth to do the will of His Father. He was perfect man and perfect God at the same time. There is nothing that can be taken away from His deity. He knows all, has power over all, is present everywhre. These attributes Mary can never attain to. She is not a god. She is not to be worshiped as the Catholics do.
DHK

Good interpretation, I think.
What Catholic often describe about Jesus Christ is Jesus born of Mary, and they have little understanding about the Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ, the Forthcoming Messiah, who will come soon.
I don't expect Jesus Christ will have the summit meeting with the Pope at that time, instead the Pope may be trodden down undert His feet or thrown away to the lake of fire!

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Plymouth Brethren?

Subjugators of women?

Keep them silent?

Barefoot and pregnant as well?

I visited a churc in Lousiana where the pughs were on different levels. The men sat elevated above women and children. Signifying their superiority over woman and child.

sounds cultish.


the primary importance of the weekly communion service
the communion is not led or administered by a single individual
the freedom and the responsibility for men to vocally participate in services
the silence of women (whose heads must be covered during meetings of the local church) in most Plymouth Brethren assemblies
the importance of preaching the gospel
the importance of generous giving
the rejection of a separation of believers into clergy and laity classes
the plurality of leadership (usually as elders and deacons) as opposed to an ordained, professional clergy class. Exclusives do not appoint elders or deacons

 

[Inquiring Mind]

We'd better remember the OP once again. Non-canonized books are quite important to support such paganism. As the whole thoughts and literatures by human beings are connected with paganism, as long as they are not the Words of God, any human literature ( not the Word of God) will be useful to support Catholic Paganism.
Early Christians accepted the Bible which is the Old Testament today, and the list of such Bible didn't include the Apocrypha.
This was confirmed by Josephus since he mentioned 22 books for Bible.
In ancient times, minor prophets were mentioned 12 prophets which was considered as one book. Samuel I, II were considered as one book, Kings I,II were considered as one book, Chronicles I, II were as one book, Nehemiah and Ezra were consided as one book.
There was no Apocrypha mentioned by Josephus.
This means that the Bible canon was excluding Apocrypha even before the Council of Jamnea around 90 AD. and the Jamneah Council just confirmed what was believed among the people and among the Rabbis.

Josephus was never a Christian and his works are after the council of Jamnia. So of course he might not mention them. He never mentioned the writings of the New Testament either. I just love your selective quoting!

Let us review the Judgements of the council of Jamnia:

1. JESUS IS NOT THE PROMISED MESSIAH. JESUS IS NOT GOD. JESUS WAS A HERETIC.

2. Established the distinction between Jews and Heretics(us christians).

3. Christians were banned from entering synogogues.

4. A CURSE OF CHRISTIANS WERE ADDED TO THEIR DAILY PRAYERS.

5. Established 4 rules for inspired scripture as noted below:

A: Scripture had to conform to the Torah (first five books)

B: Scripture had to written in Hebrew.

C: Scripture had to be written in Palenstine.

D: Scripture had to be written before 400 BC.


All four rules had to be met. So they denounce the deuterocanocals and the BOOKS THAT WOULD BECOME THE NEW TESTAMENT.

You accept one-half of 1 of the Five Judgements.

HERE ARE SOME INTERESTING FACETS ABOUT JOSEPHUS:

Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – c. 100), who became known, in his capacity as a Roman citizen, as Flavius Josephus[1], was a 1st century Jewish historian and apologist of priestly and royal ancestry who survived and recorded the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70. His works give an important insight into first-century Judaism.

HE WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN.


Josephus, who introduced himself in Greek as "Joseph, son of Matthias, an ethnic Hebrew, a priest from Jerusalem" [2], fought the Romans in the First Jewish-Roman War of 66-73 as a Jewish military leader in Galilee. After the Jewish garrison of Yodfat was taken under siege, the Romans invaded, killed thousands, and the remaining survivors who had managed to elude the forces committed suicide.

WHAT A COWARD!


However, in circumstances that are somewhat unclear (see also Josephus problem), Josephus surrendered to the Roman forces invading Galilee in July 67. He became a prisoner and provided the Romans with intelligence on the ongoing revolt.

HE WAS A TRAITOR TO GOD!


In 71 he arrived in Rome in the entourage of Titus, becoming a Roman citizen and Flavian client (hence he is often referred to as Flavius Josephus - see below). In addition to Roman citizenship he was granted accommodation in Vespasian's former home, land in conquered Judea, and a decent, if not extravagant, pension. It was while in Rome, and under Flavian patronage, that Josephus wrote all of his known works.

HE WAS REWARDED FOR HIS TREASON AGAINST GOD!


Although he only ever calls himself "Josephus", he appears to have taken the Roman nomen Flavius and praenomen Titus from his patrons [3]. This was standard for new citizens.


HE EVEN TOOK ON PAGAN ROMAN NAMES!

Around 70, Josephus divorced his first wife and married a Jewish woman from Alexandria by whom he had two children: a son Flavius Hyrcanus and a second child, about whom nothing is known. Around 75, he again divorced and, by a third marriage, produced two more sons, Flavius Justus and Simonides Agrippa.

ADULTERER!


Josephus's life is beset with ambiguity. For his critics, he never satisfactorily explained his actions during the Jewish war — why he failed to commit suicide in Galilee in 67 with some of his compatriots, and why, after his capture, he cooperated with the Roman invaders. Hence, some have viewed Josephus as a traitor and informer and questioned his credibility as a historian — dismissing his works as Roman propaganda or as a personal apologetic, aimed at rehabilitating his reputation in history.

TRYING TO COVER HIS TRACTS JUST LIKE KING GEORGE BUSH!


The works of Josephus provide crucial information about the First Jewish-Roman War. They are also important literary source for understanding the context of the Dead Sea Scrolls and post-Second Temple Judaism. Josephan scholarship in the 19th and early 20th century became focused on Josephus' relationship to the sect of the Pharisees. He was consistently portrayed as a member of the sect, but nevertheless viewed as a villanous traitor to his own nation - a view which became known in Josephan studies as the classical conception. In the mid 20th century, this view was challenged by a new generation of scholars who formulated the modern conception of Josephus, still considering him a Pharisee but restoring his reputation in part as patriot and a historian of some standing. Recent scholarship since 1990 has sought to move scholarly perceptions forward by demonstrating that Josephus was not a Pharisee but an orthodox Aristocrat-Priest who became part of the Temple establishment as a matter of deference and not willing association (Cf. Steve Mason, Todd Beall, and Ernst Gerlach).

 

[Inquiring Mind]

The criteria would have been the same as we know today.

1) The writers of Apocrypha didn't claim that they received the instruction from God that they should write such letters or writings. They never claimed that the words were received from God.

NEITHER DID THE WRITERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT WITH ONE EXCEPTION AND THAT BEING THE REVELATION OF JOHN. ALSO THERE ARE SEVERAL BOOKS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT THAT DON'T MAKE THIS EITHER.

2) They were not written in the language of then God's people, which was Hebrew.

NEITHER WAS THE NEW TESTAMENT. THEN LANGUAGE OF GOD'S PEOPLE WAS NOT HEBREW AFTER 400 BC. HEBREW BECAME LOST AND ARAMAIC TOOK OVER WITH GREEK AS THE SECOND LANGAUGE. SO THAT IS A RED HERRRING.

3) Jesus never quoted any of Apocrypha

YES HE DID, YOU JUST FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGED IT.

4) Disciples never quoted them ( even though some argue against this especially on Jude)

YES THEY DID, YOU JUST FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

5) They teach immoral things like telling lies, assassination, suicide, prayer to the dead, etc.

I HAVE NOT READ ANY OF THEM TO ARGUE AGAINST THIS.

6) The contents disagree sometimes.

NOT TRUE.

7) They were never used in the Jewish meetings or services.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

8) The style of the AP were different from other Bible which are the style of reporting and witnessing, and they are like story telling like fables or history books.

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME SCHOLARS AND THEOLOGIANS THAT MAKE THE SAME CLAIM ABOUT JOB AND JONAH AND SOMETIMES EZEKIEL. FROM AN ATHIEST STANDPOINT, GENESIS AND EXODUS SOUNDS LIKE STORY TELLING LIKE FABLES OR HISTORY BOOKS AS WELL.

 

[Eliyahu]

Plymouth Brethren?

We don't call ourseleves Plymouth Brethren but the people call us so.
We call ourselves as Believers in Jesus Christ because Bible denies any denomination, even the denomination Catholic etc.

Subjugators of women?

Keep them silent?

Nope ! we just follow what is taught by the Bible. Are you claiming Paul was a subjugator of women ?

Read 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Barefoot and pregnant as well?

Groundless accusation. Where did you find such church where women go on barefoot? YOu are just revealing you are the groundless false accuser of the true believers!

I visited a churc in Lousiana where the pughs were on different levels. The men sat elevated above women and children. Signifying their superiority over woman and child.

There is no differentiation like that ! It's another groundless accusation.

sounds cultish.

you sound very much cultish accuser !

the primary importance of the weekly communion service
the communion is not led or administered by a single individual
the freedom and the responsibility for men to vocally participate in services
the silence of women (whose heads must be covered during meetings of the local church) in most Plymouth Brethren assemblies
the importance of preaching the gospel
the importance of generous giving
the rejection of a separation of believers into clergy and laity classes
the plurality of leadership (usually as elders and deacons) as opposed to an ordained, professional clergy class. Exclusives do not appoint elders or deacons

Are the following Bible Cultish ?

1 Cor 14:34-35
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: forit is a shame for women to speak in the church

1 Cor 11:1-16
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.


In many countries, Roman Catholics have their women head covered with head coverings during the service. Do you think they are wrong as well ?

As for the priesthood of the church, all bornagain believers are the priests.
There is no distinction between laypeople and clergy at all in the Bible, after the resurrection of Jesus.
Read 1 Pet 2:5-9. All born-again believers ( including women) are the Priests offering the true service based on what Jesus has done already at the Cross.
Clergy system is absolutely wrong!

As for the Leadership, always the leaders of the churches appear in plural, except the cases where Bible explains the definition of Elders or the Bishops or the qualification of Bishop ( Overseers) Read Phil 1:1, Acts 20:17-30, 1 Tim 3:1-7, Titus 1:5-9

If you visit the true Assemblies, so-called Plymouth Brethren, you will find them as the exact followers of the Early Church.

There are many famous PB's during the short period of its service.

- John Nelson Darby who started the movement around 1827, was a genius judge, expected to become a successful judge at the supreme court, but gave up all the secular life and devoted for the Lord, lived as a bachelor even though he had a lovely sister-in the Lord to marrry.
translated Bible from original languages into English, French, German for OT and NT. into Italian for NT.

- George Mueller : Father of Orphans.
Famous for his 50,000 prayers which receieved the answers from God

- CH McINtosh : famous for Commentary on Pentateuch
- David Livingstone - Missionary to Africa
- Hudson Taylor - Inland China Missionary, influenced Watchman Nee
- Robert Anderson - famous for apologetics on Daniel's 70 weeks, proven the exactness of 69 weeks from the construction of Jerusalem until the crucifixion of Jesus, etc.
- Harry Ironside - who mainly worked with Brethren though he preached at Moody's memorial church during his later times.
- Joseph Scrivener - famous for his Hymn song " What a friend we have in Jesus ! " who lived near Toronto, at Port Hope along with poor people.
- James Deck - Hymn song writer for many worship songs
- Robert Chapman - Lawyer and advocator for the poor people.
who lieved 100 years age, saying " there are many people who claim they believe in Jesus, but a few who are really born again, I made it my motto that I preach Jesus Chrst by living the life of Jesus Christ"

There are not so many Plymouth Brethren on the world today, but they do a lot of contribution in many fields, including Arthur Farstad and Zane Hodges who translated New King James Version, and many Scientists in Creation Truth, many evangelists in Africa, EH Broadbent famous for Church History - "Pilgrim Church" ( you can see a glimpse of it ; http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-013.HTM)
There are hundreds of famous believers who have been recognized with their faith and contributions whose names I cannot afford to ilustrate on this board all.

There are many Hymns songs written by PB's, some may be even in your hymn book

Who are you condemning the servants of the Lord without knowing them properly ?

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. ( Romans 14:10)

 

[Eliyahu]

Josephus was never a Christian and his works are after the council of Jamnia. So of course he might not mention them. He never mentioned the writings of the New Testament either. I just love your selective quoting!

Let us review the Judgements of the council of Jamnia:

1. JESUS IS NOT THE PROMISED MESSIAH. JESUS IS NOT GOD. JESUS WAS A HERETIC.

2. Established the distinction between Jews and Heretics(us christians).

3. Christians were banned from entering synogogues.

4. A CURSE OF CHRISTIANS WERE ADDED TO THEIR DAILY PRAYERS.

5. Established 4 rules for inspired scripture as noted below:

A: Scripture had to conform to the Torah (first five books)

B: Scripture had to written in Hebrew.

C: Scripture had to be written in Palenstine.

D: Scripture had to be written before 400 BC.


All four rules had to be met. So they denounce the deuterocanocals and the BOOKS THAT WOULD BECOME THE NEW TESTAMENT.


HE WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN. .

WHAT A COWARD!

HE WAS A TRAITOR TO GOD!

HE WAS REWARDED FOR HIS TREASON AGAINST GOD!

HE EVEN TOOK ON PAGAN ROMAN NAMES!
ADULTERER!

TRYING TO COVER HIS TRACTS JUST LIKE KING GEORGE BUSH!

(Cf. Steve Mason, Todd Beall, and Ernst Gerlach).

I condone neither Josephus nor Jamnea Council.
Jamnea Council just confirmed what the Jewish Believers before Jesus Christ' time believed and practiced.
The reason why I mentioned the Jamnea council is because it shows the such stance. Do you believe that the Jamnea Council invented a bew criteria which didn't exist before? They just simply acknowledged what was believed before.
The people who killed Jesus had held the Bible(OT), and therefore those Bible were wrong ? Those people who killed Jesus must have had a certain criteria for the Bible canon, were the criteria wrong because they killed Jesus ?

As for Josephus, I have read some books surrounding Intra-testamental period. He or his advocator may have some excuses that he also tried to commit suicide, but failed, etc or he tried to persuade his people to abandon the fight because he saw no hope of victory of survival there, in order to save his people. He was not a believer, but testified about the Bible canon without any religious prejudice. He was neither Catholic nor Protestant, neither a Republican nor a Democrat, but a historian. We sometimes rely on the secular historian when there is a dispute among the religious group. Of course what we trust finally is the Bible and we would not yield to any if the claim contradict Bible.
Josephus must have lived the terrible life during the war and the turmoil, and we can hardly judge the personal life of others without knowing the details and the actual aspects. Divorce must be a grievous sin but the human life often involves it and therefore the Bible mentioned the biblical solutions which would be better than the worst cases, thru what Moses said and what Paul said in 1 Cor 7, especially 7:15.

Again I don't rely on his writings as any final authority or any significant reference but as a neutral record. Even the persucutors of Roman empire's record about Tiberius or Pilate the governor can be used to verify what Luke said. Record on Haesmonian Kingdom and King Herod's can be used to verify some of the Biblical events.

I don't think Josephus mentioned 22 Bibles in Old Testaments while the actual belief among the believers were like 30 including Apocrypha. There could be little disagreements about the number of books in the Bible at that time, than we have it between Catholics and Protestants today.
Addition of Apocrypha must have occurred after around 313 AD, after Catholic tried to justify all its paganism.
Catholic excluded the 3,4th Esdras conveniently for their idolatry while they include Macc 1,2 and other AP's, because those Esdras condemn the Idol worship and paganism.

So, your claim is rejected.

 

[Eliyahu]

NEITHER DID THE WRITERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT WITH ONE EXCEPTION AND THAT BEING THE REVELATION OF JOHN. ALSO THERE ARE SEVERAL BOOKS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT THAT DON'T MAKE THIS EITHER.
NEITHER WAS THE NEW TESTAMENT. THEN LANGUAGE OF GOD'S PEOPLE WAS NOT HEBREW AFTER 400 BC. HEBREW BECAME LOST AND ARAMAIC TOOK OVER WITH GREEK AS THE SECOND LANGAUGE. SO THAT IS A RED HERRRING.
YES HE DID, YOU JUST FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGED IT.
YES THEY DID, YOU JUST FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.
I HAVE NOT READ ANY OF THEM TO ARGUE AGAINST THIS.
NOT TRUE.
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?
THERE HAVE BEEN SOME SCHOLARS AND THEOLOGIANS THAT MAKE THE SAME CLAIM ABOUT JOB AND JONAH AND SOMETIMES EZEKIEL. FROM AN ATHIEST STANDPOINT, GENESIS AND EXODUS SOUNDS LIKE STORY TELLING LIKE FABLES OR HISTORY BOOKS AS WELL.

1. If you read the Bible books for each, you can clearly confirm that they claim the revelation by Holy Spirit or Words from God.

2. Hebrew lange was the language of the then God's people, while the God's people have been diversified into thousands of nations in NT period.
Greek was the representative language of gentiles at that time.

Isaiah said " Jehovah said..." Jeremiah said " Jehovah said.."..

If you read the bible and AP, we can clearly tell the difference.