Confused, did the early christians accept the non-canonized books?

[Taufgesinnter]

The exact phrase "holy Mary Mother of God, and of Jesus Christ His Son" is used often in the Catholic Church.

I googled that phrase and not a single document on the entire Internet turned up with their search engine.

I read this to my best friend and his wife. She said, "Never heard it!" She added that she had attended Catholic schools for eight years and if she'd ever said anything like that, she would've been called a heretic.

Our own Divine Liturgy says, "It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever blessed and all-blameless, and the mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, thou who without stain barest God the Word, and art truly Theotokos: we magnify thee." It is crystal clear that it is God the Word she bore.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

I googled that phrase and not a single document on the entire Internet turned up with their search engine.

That was the very first thing I did myself and it came up empty. I then searched a missilette and it came up nil as well.

Slander?

 

[Eliyahu]

Really? How?

How?
No Argument there.
God the Son is God whom does have a mother.
God the Son was nourished in the womb by a human female.
God the Son suckled on the breast of a human female.

How? Mary carried a God in her womb. How would God hate that, since it was God whom placed himself there?

I have answered to all the arguments.
If you do not understand the big problem contradicting each other between Theotokos and Trinit, you must have a big problem with your sanity and inteligence.
If Mary is not Mother of God the Father while you are saying Mary is Mother of God, then are you not saying God the Father is not God?
If you believe Mary is daughter of God, then isn't it right that you should call her daughter of God? Why do you call the daughter as mother ?
Is your daughter your mother?

If RC meant Mother of God the Son, they must have said so, but no phrase is like that!
Agan do you not understand yet that Nobody in the Bible calls Mary as Mother of God?
Who in the Bible calls or mentions Mary as Mother of God?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBODY! except stupid, stubborn and whorish Roman Catholic and their followers!

 

[Eliyahu]

God the Son was already was God the Son before Mary was born.
Mary was created by God the Son.
Mary could not exist without the plan and creation by God the Son.
God the Son was already born by Holy Spirit before He came out of Mary ( Mt 1:20) - Read Bible in Greek.
Mary was not the biological mother of God the Son. She was a mere a surrogate mother. Ovum of woman is not designed to be fertilized with the Word, nor did the Word change to a sperm, but the Word of God simply became ( came in the form of ) flesh as we read 1 Tim 3:16.
Mary was the mother for the humanity of Jesus only for a short time during the Eternity of God the Son.
Mary was Hell bound person without the redemption by God the Son. God the Son redeemed her from the sins.
Deity of God the Son was not inherited from Mary.
Mary was a sinner requiring Savior and God the Son was her Savior.
God the Son who met Abraham was not different from God the Son Jesus.
Before Abraham was, I am. ( John 8:58)
The person who met Abraham( John 8:56-58) or whom Moses was working for ( Heb 11:26) didn't disapear but came down to this world. His divine nature didn't disappear but showed up.
Mary is not the object to worship or to venerate as only God should be exalted.
What Roman Catholics are doing for Mary is goddess worship decorated with the name shown in the Bible, decorated with the name of person related to Jesus in human form. goddess worshippers are desperate to find out the clue to continue their goddess worship, idol worship decorated and beatutified with Christian names.
That is Whorish Religion of Babylon! O miserable people, bounding for the Lake of Fire!

Mary was not the Mother of God the Father who is normally simplified as God.
Mary was not the Mother of God the Son because she was not the mother for the deity of Jesus.
Mary was the mother of Jesus for the humanity and this is why the Bible calls her simply Mother of Jesus, no further exaltation.

Rev 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You fail to grasp the concept:

Even anti-catholics like R.C. Sproul have grasped the concept:

From Ligonier Ministries: Mary Audio series

These lectures were designed to unravel false teaching about Mary's role in the New Testament and in the life of the church. R.C. examines the Catholic rosary controversy, showing that while Protestants can affirm that Mary was "the mother of God," the remainder of the prayer should be rejected as un-Biblical.

R.C. teaches that although we must reject false teaching about Mary, we should not minimize her. He teaches that by studying Mary's life, Christians can discover an important example of godliness and submission to our magnificent God and Savior.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

I suppose if you wanted to avoid heresy you could advocate that rather than calling Mary

"Mother of God"

They could call her

"Mother of the incarnate Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, who in His divine person is joined by virtue of circumincession or perichoresis with the other members of the Blessed Trinity and equal in all things, yet subsistingly relationally distinct, consubstantial with the other two"

...but don't you think "Mother of God" is easier? Which way is really less confusing?

 

[DHK]

I googled that phrase and not a single document on the entire Internet turned up with their search engine.

I read this to my best friend and his wife. She said, "Never heard it!" She added that she had attended Catholic schools for eight years and if she'd ever said anything like that, she would've been called a heretic.

Perhaps I have heard then, I don't know. I haven't read all the thread. So I might ask why is it important to have these two phrases juxtaposed together?
(And no, this is not slander IQ; that statement about slander is slander).

Here are two things that every Catholic knows and cannot deny.
1 The Hail Mary.
"Hail Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now."
That takes care of the first part of the phrase.

2. The Apostles Creed.
"...born of the virgin Mary..." That takes care of the second part. Yes Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ.
The second point we all agree with. The first point we have a problem with. Why both parts must be in one sentence, I don't know.
DHK

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Perhaps I have heard then, I don't know. I haven't read all the thread. So I might ask why is it important to have these two phrases juxtaposed together?
(And no, this is not slander IQ; that statement about slander is slander).

Here are two things that every Catholic knows and cannot deny.
1 The Hail Mary.
"Hail Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now."
That takes care of the first part of the phrase.

2. The Apostles Creed.
"...born of the virgin Mary..." That takes care of the second part. Yes Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ.
The second point we all agree with. The first point we have a problem with. Why both parts must be in one sentence, I don't know.
DHK

First: The Hail Mary is not part of the established and sanctioned Liturgical Service that is the Mass.

Second: The Hail Mary is optional. It is not binding on the Individual.

Third: How about going and buying a copy of the "Cathechism of the Catholic Chruch" and find out for yourself what it teaches.

As for "Mother of God" go up 2 posts.

 

[DHK]

First: The Hail Mary is not part of the established and sanctioned Liturgical Service that is the Mass.

Second: The Hail Mary is optional. It is not binding on the Individual.

Third: How about going and buying a copy of the "Cathechism of the Catholic Chruch" and find out for yourself what it teaches.

As for "Mother of God" go up 2 posts.

Whether the "Hail Mary" is part of the Mass or not is totally irrelevant. You are not a Catholic are you? Were you ever? I was--for 20 years. The "Hail Mary" is a requirement for most Catholics, if not all. It is usually what the priest gives for penance after going to the confessional. He may say: "Pray 10 Hail Mary's and...etc." I've been there, done that. Catholics are highly encouraged to pray through the rosary--even on a daily basis. That in itself is 53 Hail Mary's. The rosary is one of the central parts of the Catholic's life.
Mary is not the mother of God.
She is the mother of man Jesus Christ who was conceived by the Holy Spirit. God used her as a vessel to bring forth the body of our Lord. That does not make her the mother of God any more than it makes Joseph his father just because he was one of the parents that raised him. Both were used of God. Christ was known as a carpenter just as Joseph was. He learned the trade of his "father." Does that mean that Joseph is the father of God? If Mary is the mother of God, then why not Joseph the the father of God. Be logical. They were his earthly parents while in childhood. God used them for a short period of time whlle on earth.
DHK

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Whether the "Hail Mary" is part of the Mass or not is totally irrelevant. You are not a Catholic are you? Were you ever? I was--for 20 years. The "Hail Mary" is a requirement for most Catholics, if not all. It is usually what the priest gives for penance after going to the confessional. He may say: "Pray 10 Hail Mary's and...etc." I've been there, done that. Catholics are highly encouraged to pray through the rosary--even on a daily basis. That in itself is 53 Hail Mary's. The rosary is one of the central parts of the Catholic's life.
Mary is not the mother of God.
She is the mother of man Jesus Christ who was conceived by the Holy Spirit. God used her as a vessel to bring forth the body of our Lord. That does not make her the mother of God any more than it makes Joseph his father just because he was one of the parents that raised him. Both were used of God. Christ was known as a carpenter just as Joseph was. He learned the trade of his "father." Does that mean that Joseph is the father of God? If Mary is the mother of God, then why not Joseph the the father of God. Be logical. They were his earthly parents while in childhood. God used them for a short period of time whlle on earth.
DHK

I think you have misunderstanding of your previous faith. You probably left your faith at age 20? Right? Cradle Catholics are really [uneducated? Edited to remove insulting language.] about their own faith and about what is actually taught. They are ... [Edited to remove defamatory language.] And having studied the Catholic faith, I know your accusations are false. The hail mary is not required. It may have been pushed on you as a child during CCD. I will give you that. But is not a requirement of the faith.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Whether the "Hail Mary" is part of the Mass or not is totally irrelevant. You are not a Catholic are you? Were you ever? I was--for 20 years. The "Hail Mary" is a requirement for most Catholics, if not all. It is usually what the priest gives for penance after going to the confessional. He may say: "Pray 10 Hail Mary's and...etc." I've been there, done that. Catholics are highly encouraged to pray through the rosary--even on a daily basis. That in itself is 53 Hail Mary's. The rosary is one of the central parts of the Catholic's life.
Mary is not the mother of God.
She is the mother of man Jesus Christ who was conceived by the Holy Spirit. God used her as a vessel to bring forth the body of our Lord. That does not make her the mother of God any more than it makes Joseph his father just because he was one of the parents that raised him. Both were used of God. Christ was known as a carpenter just as Joseph was. He learned the trade of his "father." Does that mean that Joseph is the father of God? If Mary is the mother of God, then why not Joseph the the father of God. Be logical. They were his earthly parents while in childhood. God used them for a short period of time whlle on earth.
DHK

obviously you can't read:

I suppose if you wanted to avoid heresy you could advocate that rather than calling Mary

"Mother of God"

They could call her

"Mother of the incarnate Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, who in His divine person is joined by virtue of circumincession or perichoresis with the other members of the Blessed Trinity and equal in all things, yet subsistingly relationally distinct, consubstantial with the other two"

...but don't you think "Mother of God" is easier? Which way is really less confusing?

 

[DHK]

obviously you can't read:

I suppose if you wanted to avoid heresy you could advocate that rather than calling Mary

"Mother of God"

They could call her

"Mother of the incarnate Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, who in His divine person is joined by virtue of circumincession or perichoresis with the other members of the Blessed Trinity and equal in all things, yet subsistingly relationally distinct, consubstantial with the other two"

...but don't you think "Mother of God" is easier? Which way is really less confusing?

I read perfectly well.
Yes they could say that. But they don't. And they don't mean that either.
They teach very clearly that Mary is the Mother of God, the Queen of Heaven, co-redemptrix with Christ. Ask Bob to post some of the prayers of the well known Catholic saints and find out what they believe about Mary. According to the RCC, Mary is the mother of God, far more than what the typical Protestant conception or theological view is.
DHK

 

[DHK]

I think you have misunderstanding of your previous faith. You probably left your faith at age 20? Right? Cradle Catholics are really [uneducated? Edited to remove insulting language] about their own faith and about what is actually taught. They are ... [Edited to remove defamatory language.] And having studied the Catholic faith, I know your accusations are false. The hail mary is not required. It may have been pushed on you as a child during CCD. I will give you that. But is not a requirement of the faith.

I resent your demeaning remarks. They should be edited. If another moderator sees them I will give him the honor. You don't know me. You don't know how far into the Catholic Church I went.
I resent the name-calling of being: clueless, stupid, and not understanding what I have been taught. If you can't carry a debate without such language accusations and demeaning language I suggest you go somewhere else.
DHK

 

[Eliyahu]

Was Mary really carrying the Only, Almighty, True God in her womb ?

We should be careful with that expression.

When Israelites carried the Ark of Covenant where God used to dwell in, did they carry God?
If one think that God is dead or that God need to be carried by human beings as they carry the handicapped people, then such expression can be correct.
In human eyes, it may have looked like that Mary carried God in her womb.
That is like an iceberg.
God who operated the whole world even at the time when He was in the womb of Mary, was carrying Mary !

Stupid people blinded with goddess worship may not understand this profound truth.

No one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven. ( John 3:13 - Darby)
Even at the time when He was in the womb of Mary, He was in the heaven as well.

 

[Eliyahu]

As there are still some people on this board who do not understand the contradiction with Mother of God theory, I would re-iterate explaining the problems with it.
Calling Mary as Mother of God has started from Human Syllogism and encounters the bigger problem with its contradiction in Trinity.

Let's see the sentences:

1) Jesus is God
2) Mary is Mother of Jesus
3) Therefore Mary is Mother of God
4) God the Father is God
5) Mary is Mother of God
6) Therefore Mary is Mother of God the Father
7) God the Holy Spirit is God
8) Mary is Mother of God
9) Therefore Mary is Mother of God the Holy Spirit.

What is wrong with any of the above sentences ?

Is God in the sentence 3) different from God in sentence 4) ?

Is God in the sentence 8) different from God in the sentence 7) ?

Maybe this shows that Catholics are worshipping Three-gods as their practices are based on polytheism in many ways.
Catholics may be worshipping another god different from the Only True God whom the True Christian Believers are worshipping.

Mary was the mother for the 1/3 Godhead of Trinity, and moreover was the mother for only the humanity of the 1/3 Godhead, not for the divinity of God the Son, because the divinity was not born by Mary.
Mary never gave birth to Deity of Jesus Christ, but to the humanity.
Deity of Jesus Christ was not given birth to by Mary as Mary had no capability to produce any deity.
Deity or Divine nature cannot be born or produced by any human being.
Only the humanity of Jesus came out of Mary.

Noooobody in the Bible calls Mary as Mother of God.
Paul calls her simply " woman" in Galatians 4:4
True Believers who refuse calling Mary as Mother of God will go to the place where Paul, Peter, John, went to, after death, which is called Kingdom of God.


Another silly logic by Maria worshippers is this.

"If you deny calling Mary as Mother of God, you are denying Jesus is God, denying the deity of Jesus, Anathema !"

If anyone deny calling James as Brother of God, then is she or he denying that Jesus is God, as Gal 1:19 says James is the Brother of Lord?

Another stupid ground for Theotokos came from Luke 1:43 as Elizabeth called Mary as Mother of my Lord. Did she say " Mother of God came since I believe that my Lord is God"?

When Sarah called Abraham as my Lord, did she say that as meaning my God? Read 1 Pet 3:6.

In conclusion, Calling Mary as Mother of God contradicts Trinity.
Usually when people call God without specifying Godheads, it means God the Father.
When Catholics and some other followers call Mother of God, they usually excuse that they are meaning Mother of God the Son, the second Godhead.
Do Catholics call Mary as Mother of God the Son ? Nope !
Why?
They are reluctant to call her in such way, because they want to give the impression that Mary is the Mother of God the Father !
They don't want to call Mary as the Mother of Jesus who humbled Himself to save the people.
They want to exalt Mary as goddess, who can produce gods as many as she wants to !

The situation is very similar to the case with Ashera or Astarte, Astaroth which people worshipped as the goddess producing any gods.

Catholics are decorating their goddess with Christian names and Christian titles.
They are not satisfied with Lord's Mother, Mother of Jesus.
They want to exalt Mary on top of God, as the word Mother has two meanings:
1) Producer, Creator of Child. Mary gave birth to God. God was produced by Mary. God could not exist if Mary didn't produce Him.

2) Pre-existence: No one could exist before his or her mother.
So, Catholics want to give the impression that Mary pre-existed before God.

How much devout goddess worshippers they are !

God hates hearing Mother of God ! as He had NOOOO Mother !

Before me, there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. ( Isaiah 43:10)

 

[Eliyahu]

Here are two things that every Catholic knows and cannot deny.
1 The Hail Mary.
"Hail Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now."
That takes care of the first part of the phrase.

2. The Apostles Creed.
"...born of the virgin Mary..." That takes care of the second part. Yes Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ.
The second point we all agree with. The first point we have a problem with. Why both parts must be in one sentence, I don't know.
DHK

The problem with Hail Mary is that
RC prays to Mary, while Jesus asked us to pray to God ( Mt 6:6, John 15:16).
While Mary lived on this earth, she could not hear from millions of people.
Did she become so Omni-present to hear from 1.3 billion people, after death ?
This shows Catholic is based on a certain type of animism or ancestor worship, or ghost, or any other paganism.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. ( Jn 15:16)

 

[DHK]

The problem with Hail Mary is that
RC prays to Mary, while Jesus asked us to pray to God ( Mt 6:6, John 15:16).
While Mary lived on this earth, she could not hear from millions of people.
Did she become so Omni-present to hear from 1.3 billion people, after death ?
This shows Catholic is based on a certain type of animism or ancestor worship, or ghost, or any other paganism.

You are quite right. The RCC treats Mary as god whether they deny it or not.
1. Mary cannot be omniscient (as you say) to hear all the prayers direcected to her by the one billion Catholics world wide.
2. The Ten Commandments specifies that worship is due only to God and him alone, thus Mary is god by virtue of accepting worship. Both John and Cornelius were rebuked for worshiping another rather than God.
3. Jesus never refused worship from any person because he is God.
4. Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in Scriptures. Mary is dead. The RCC's deny this. She is just as dead as any other person we hold a funeral for. Her body is still in the grave. The resurrection has not yet taken place. Praying to the dead is wrong. Praying to any other person but God is wroing.

Mary is treated and receives the same treatment as God.
DHK

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You are quite right. The RCC treats Mary as god whether they deny it or not.DHK

No they do not.

1. Mary cannot be omniscient (as you say) to hear all the prayers direcected to her by the one billion Catholics world wide.

How do you know that those in heaven can't hear prayers? How do you know that God has not given those in heaven the ability to hear? How do you know. No one for sure what gifts and rewards God has given. God does say that we would be like him when get to heaven.

2. The Ten Commandments specifies that worship is due only to God and him alone, thus Mary is god by virtue of accepting worship. Both John and Cornelius were rebuked for worshiping another rather than God.

Asking those in heaven to pray for us is not worshipping them. What is worship in it's trueist sense? If you look at the biblical definition, it's called PROSTRATING oneself in homage.

3. Jesus never refused worship from any person because he is God.

what does this have to do with the discussion?

4. Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in Scriptures. Mary is dead. The RCC's deny this. She is just as dead as any other person we hold a funeral for. Her body is still in the grave. The resurrection has not yet taken place. Praying to the dead is wrong. Praying to any other person but God is wroing.

You're starting to sound like the SDAs now. They don't believe anyone is in heaven except God, Angels, Enoch, Elijah, and possibly Moses. Do you also believe the soul and body are inseparable and the soul is just asleep drifting around whereever the body is? Actually, tradition with a little t says that doubting thomas asked to see the body of Mary after her death, they opened the tomb and found it empty. Since the early church was hung up on relics of dead saints, don't you think there would be a church somewhere that holds her bones, just like the churches have possess the bones of Peter, Paul, and other of noteworthy righteousnes?

Mary is treated and receives the same treatment as God.

No she is not.

The RCC, EOC, and others of like mind don't define praying as worshipping.

How do you worship God? What is considered worship?

 

[Inquiring Mind]

If you really want to know who actually worships God in it's correct form, look to the Islamist.

Is singing a hymn worshipping God? No. It's not part of the definition.

G4352 προσκυνέω proskuneō pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship

I really don't see praying as part of the definition of worship, do you?

When you met your wife to be, did you fawn over her? Did you crouch before her? Did you rever her? Did you adore her? If you ask her, she would more than likely say you did.

You might just have worshipped her as a God then.

I know a lot of Christians that worship their boss in the form of butt-kissing and brown-nosing which follows this: {meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand }

 

[DHK]

No they do not.

As I said: "whether they deny it or not."

How do you know that those in heaven can't hear prayers? How do you know that God has not given those in heaven the ability to hear? How do you know. No one for sure what gifts and rewards God has given. God does say that we would be like him when get to heaven.

First and foremost because the Bible is my final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. I do not look to tradition, whether RCC or otherwise to shape my beliefs.
1. How do you know that those in heaven can't hear prayers?
Even if they could they can't do anything about it. Only God can answer prayer. Praying to any creature other than God alone is idolatry. Everytime Israel went praying to other gods, like Baal, it was idolatry. The same holds true for Mary and other so-called saints. Sinners can't answer prayers. Mary and all others in heaven are sinners, but sinners who have been saved by the grace of God. They are also dead. Their bodies remain in the grave to this day. Only Christ has risen from the dead. Do you deny this? Do you deny that the resurrection is yet to come? Would you care to go to a cemetary and start digging up graves and tell me what you would find? Do you think that you would find the bodies of dead people? They are dead precisely because the resurrection has not taken place.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Even the Bible defines it as dead.
It is against Scripture to pray to the dead. It is called necromancy. It is sin.
The only one that can hear prayer and do anything about it is God.
Why do you think that God commands you to confess your sin to Him before He will answer prayer. What good would it do to confess it to another spirit. That is dabbling with the occult.

2. How do you know that God has not given others the ability to others to hear.
God will not share his glory with another. Worship God and Him alone. Prayer is worship. Praying to anyone else is sin. By praying to another you are worshiping and God does not allow you or any other to worship another. We worship God, not his creation.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

3. "God says that we shall be like him."
What is the context.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We shall see him as he is.
The context is his body. We shall be like him in that we shall have a body like unto his. It is not speaking of the power that God has. In this you are deceived.

Asking those in heaven to pray for us is not worshipping them. What is worship in it's trueist sense? If you look at the biblical definition, it's called PROSTRATING oneself in homage.

That is only one small part of worship. Have you ever been to a "worship service" and have seen what is involved in what some believe to be worship?
Worship: How do dictionaries define the word:

Worship:
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe –ship

reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/worship

PRAYER
Is the offering of the emotions and desires of the soul to God, in the name and through the mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is the communion of the heart with God through the aid of the Holy Spirit, and is to the Christian the very life of the soul. Without this filial spirit, no one can be a Christian, Job 21:15; Ps 10:4.
reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
He who lives without it thereby reveals the atheism of his heart. God requires all men thus to worship him, Eze 36:37; Mt 7:1-11; Php 4:6; 1Ti 2:1-3; Jas 1:5; and for neglecting this duty there can be no sufficient excuse. (American Tract Society Dictionary)

Prayer is worship. Every time one prays to Mary he or she is worshiping her, worship that due only to God.

what does this have to do with the discussion?

Everything. Only God deserves worship. Christ was showing his divinity by accepting prayer and/or worship. No other person could do that.

You're starting to sound like the SDAs now. They don't believe anyone is in heaven except God, Angels, Enoch, Elijah, and possibly Moses. Do you also believe the soul and body are inseparable and the soul is just asleep drifting around whereever the body is?

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. My beliefs differ from the SDA. But one's spirit is present with the Lord, not their body. For the resurrection has not taken place. Therefore they are still considered dead.

Actually, tradition with a little t says that doubting thomas asked to see the body of Mary after her death, they opened the tomb and found it empty. Since the early church was hung up on relics of dead saints, don't you think there would be a church somewhere that holds her bones, just like the churches have possess the bones of Peter, Paul, and other of noteworthy righteousnes?

As I said before I don't base my doctrine on tradition, fables, myth, legend or any other such thing. My beliefs are grounded in the Word of God, and therein will I take my stand. There is no such thing as the Assumption of Mary. Mary is dead. You may not be able to find her tomb. So what! Her body has no doubt rotted by now. That makes no difference to me. You pray to her; you commit idolatry. It would be wise for you to study the Ten Commandments once again.

Exodus 20:2-5 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

No she is not.

The RCC, EOC, and others of like mind don't define praying as worshipping.

How do you worship God? What is considered worship?

Yes she is treated as God, and worshiped as God.
I have already defined worship for you.
Let me define God. There are two sets of attributes in defining God. One is metaphysical, and the other set is moral.

The metaphysical attributes of God is what sets God apart from man. No man can attain to these attributes. What are they?
1. God is self-existent. He is not dependent on any one or anything. John 1:4 sayas "In him was life." All life emanates from God. He is self-existent.

2. He is eternal. God alone is eternal. He existed before all things and will exist throughout all eternity. Only God possesses this attribute.

3. He is omniscient (all-knowing). If you remember Scripture:
Jesus knew from the beginning who should betray him. Why? He is all-knowing.
When he healed the man in the synagogue, he said to the Pharisees: "Why reason in your hearts..." How did he know what was in their hearts? He is all-knowing.

4. He is omnipotent (all powerful). God can do anything that is not contrary to his nature. For example he cannot lie for that would be contrary to his nature to do so. He demonstrated that through his works. He calmed the sea, walked on water, raised the dead, etc.

5. He is omnipresent (everywhere at once). Mary cannot be everywhere and thus cannot hear the prayers of one billion Catholics world wide. Only God is omnipresent. This is where Catholics attribute Godhood to Mary. Omnipresence belongs to God alone.
John 3:13 Christ talking to Nicodemus says that he is in Heaven while speaking to Nicodemus at the same time. In the Great Commission (Mat.28:20) He promises to be with us to the end of the world. He will be everywhere with every believer in every age until the end of the world. He is omnipresent.

There is another class of attributes called moral attributes: holy, truth, love, righteous, etc. God is perfect in all these. Man can only attain them in part. But in the first group (metaphysical attributes), man cannot attain at all. Those attributes belong to God alone. To attribute any of those qualities to man (or Mary) is blasphemy. And yet the RCC does that to Mary. They blasphemously make Mary into a god.
DHK