Confused, did the early christians accept the non-canonized books?

[Eliyahu]

Shame on you! In the last 100 years, over 100 million Christians died as martyrs for their faith in Christ. Over 99% of them were Orthodox!Don't cheapen the blood of millions of martyrs for Christ with such utter nonsense.

That 100 million may be including the devout Roman Catholic, Adolf Hitler, devout Roman Catholic Mussolini, devout Roman Catholic Franco, generalissimo of Spain.
After WWII, a Spanish newspaper reported that Hitler could have been canonized as a Saint only if he ended the war reasonably.

Muslim suicide bombers are called Martyrs by the Islam.

In many countries, Catholics were involved in the political Coup d'etat.
They are often called as Saints or Martyrs by Catholics.
Interestingly I noticed Cyril is called Saint ( Actually all the bornagain believers are Saints), though he was a tricky politician who established theotokos, paying bribery to the empress.

God judges all the sinners properly.
Any prize or canonization by human beings mean NOTHING.
We have to be faithful to the Bible teachings until we are awarded the crowns and prizes by God.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

You changed the subject...again....

That 100 million may be including the devout Roman Catholic, Adolf Hitler, devout Roman Catholic Mussolini, devout Roman Catholic Franco, generalissimo of Spain.
After WWII, a Spanish newspaper reported that Hitler could have been canonized as a Saint only if he ended the war reasonably.

Muslim suicide bombers are called Martyrs by the Islam.

In many countries, Catholics were involved in the political Coup d'etat.
They are often called as Saints or Martyrs by Catholics.
Interestingly I noticed Cyril is called Saint ( Actually all the bornagain believers are Saints), though he was a tricky politician who established theotokos, paying bribery to the empress.

God judges all the sinners properly.
Any prize or canonization by human beings mean NOTHING.
We have to be faithful to the Bible teachings until we are awarded the crowns and prizes by God.

I've noticed before that you like to rant against Roman Catholicism, even when, as in the case of the quote from me above, it means changing the subject. I have to assume that you've never read anything accurate about the suffering of Christians behind the Iron Curtain at the hands of the Communists, or in China, Sudan, etc., or you wouldn't be throwing flippant comments about Hitler and Mussolini in as counterpoint to a serious post about brethren in Christ being tortured to death for refusing to renounce Him. And if Hitler had been a devout RC, why would he have had so many priests gassed in concentration camps? But asking that question is following your rabbit trail, since my quote had nothing at all specifically to do with Catholicism, so never mind.

The only thing in your reply remotely related to my post (except for having the word 'martyr' in common with entirely different reference points) is saying that Cyril established Mary as the mother of Jesus--Theotokos--a topic relevant to Orthodox Christianity. If Jesus was God, then she was the Theotokos. If He was just a mortal man, she was not. There's no middle ground. As every first-year Bible college student knows from church history class, the title Theotokos was not placed on Mary to elevate her, but to defend the deity of Christ. If Jesus is God as the Bible insists, then the mother of Jesus is the God-bearer--she did not bear God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, but God the Son. Anyone who denies that Mary is the Theotokos denies the virgin birth and the incarnation, and is definitely not Trinitarian. Period. The title Theotokos does not necessitate nor of itself promote "Mariolatry."

Tauf, not RCC

 

[Eliyahu]

I've noticed before that you like to rant against Roman Catholicism, even when, as in the case of the quote from me above, it means changing the subject. I have to assume that you've never read anything accurate about the suffering of Christians behind the Iron Curtain at the hands of the Communists, or in China, Sudan, etc., or you wouldn't be throwing flippant comments about Hitler and Mussolini in as counterpoint to a serious post about brethren in Christ being tortured to death for refusing to renounce Him. And if Hitler had been a devout RC, why would he have had so many priests gassed in concentration camps? But asking that question is following your rabbit trail, since my quote had nothing at all specifically to do with Catholicism, so never mind.

The only thing in your reply remotely related to my post (except for having the word 'martyr' in common with entirely different reference points) is saying that Cyril established Mary as the mother of Jesus--Theotokos--a topic relevant to Orthodox Christianity. If Jesus was God, then she was the Theotokos. If He was just a mortal man, she was not. There's no middle ground. As every first-year Bible college student knows from church history class, the title Theotokos was not placed on Mary to elevate her, but to defend the deity of Christ. If Jesus is God as the Bible insists, then the mother of Jesus is the God-bearer--she did not bear God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, but God the Son. Anyone who denies that Mary is the Theotokos denies the virgin birth and the incarnation, and is definitely not Trinitarian. Period. The title Theotokos does not necessitate nor of itself promote "Mariolatry."

Tauf, not RCC

The true Christians who suffered during the communist regime were not the Catholics, they were rather close to Baptists or Brethren. Russian Orthodox and Catholic Priests became the chairmen of the local communists party or the secretaries of the party in Russia.
In China the people who suffered there were mostly Watchman Nee group and Inland China Missionary group started by Hudson Taylor.

You will betray Trinity doctrine if you call Mary as Mother of God based on Trinity.

Are you saying Mary is the Mother of the God the Father ?
You may say No.
Then Resolve this:
God the Father is God.
Mary is not the Mother of God the Father.
But you said Mary is Mother of God.
Then are there 2 different God's in the World?

You may be worshipping another God different from the Only God served by true belivers.
This is why nobody in the Bible called her Mother of God.
Repeatedly I explain you.

Mary is Mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God
therefore
Mary is Mother of God.

God the father is God
Mary is Mother of God
therefore
Mary is Mother of God the Father.

Mary is Mother of God
God the Holy Spirit is God
Mary is Mother of God the Holy Spirit.

Does it take long time for you to understand the contradiction in the Human Syllogism?

 

[Eliyahu]

People calling Mary as Mother of God is denying God the Father is God, and therefore Anathema!

 

[Chemnitz]

Oh boy here we go again. :BangHead:

The incarnation, is a work of the entire Trinity by which the divine nature in the person of the Son alone assumed from the Virgin Mary a true human nature without transmutation and confusion.
- Chemnitz The Two Natures of Christ

nope no confusion of the persons of God here so nope Mary ain't the mother of the Father or the Holy Spirit.

This warning also applies to the discussion of the hypostatic union namely, that the Son of God from eternity subsisted in the divine nature before assuming the human nature. For the flesh of Christ was not first formed and animated separately in the womb of Mary in such a way that afterwards the person of the Logos was united with this performed and animated flesh. For this would mean that the human nature of Christ at some time would have its own proper and peculiar subsistence before and outside the hypostatic union with the Logos. Nor would Mary have been the God-bearer (theotokos). Of necessity it would follow that there are two persons in the incarnate Christ. But the angel expressly said that by this conception in and of mary there should be born the Son of God (Lk 1:35). And He whom Mary conceived is called Immanuel (Mt 1:23). Therefore, this individual unit of human nature, which by the operation of the Spirit in the conception was separated from teh person of the Virgin Mary, at no time and at no moment of time existed or subsisted of and in itself before or outside the hypostatic union with the Logos.
-Chemnitz The Two Natures of Christ p101

And according to the understanding of the unconfused unity we confess Mary as the God-bearer (theotokos)
- Chemnitz The Two Nature of Christ p 183

Because of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, gave birth not to a mere, ordinary human being, but instead to a human being who is truly the Son of God the Most High, as teh angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty in his mother's womb, in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore, she remained truly the Mother of God and at the same time a virgin.
Formula of Concord VIII:24

...Even though she (Mary) is worthy of the highest honor, nevertheless she does not want herself to be made equal with Christ but instead wnats us to consider and follow her example...We contend that we are justified by the merits of Christ alone, not by the merits of the Blessed virgin.
Defense of the Augsburg Confession XXI:27

Do these sound like the words of somebody who worships Mary. I argue that the root of Mary worship is not the concept of theotokos but of the concept that the saints have an overabundance of grace which they can share with us, in addition the idea of the immaculate conception which argues that Mary herself was born perfect.

As to the protection of the Bible the church in Rome did keep and protect scripture until its leaders feel in love with power. Contrary to both Orthodox and Roman churches the canon was agreed upon before either were organized.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

Chemnitz

Actually, the canon was not agreed upon until the fourth century. This is well attested.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

People calling Mary as Mother of God is denying God the Father is God, and therefore Anathema!

If you're saying you don't understand the most basic theology, that Jesus is God, then we have bigger problems to deal with than Theotokos. I've never ever heard or read ANYONE anywhere who claims that Mary is Mother of God the Father! The title Theotokos, as has already been explained to you, is christological, not mariological.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

The true Christians who suffered during the communist regime were not the Catholics, they were rather close to Baptists or Brethren. Russian Orthodox and Catholic Priests became the chairmen of the local communists party or the secretaries of the party in Russia.
In China the people who suffered there were mostly Watchman Nee group and Inland China Missionary group started by Hudson Taylor.

You will betray Trinity doctrine if you call Mary as Mother of God based on Trinity.

Are you saying Mary is the Mother of the God the Father ?
You may say No.
Then Resolve this:
God the Father is God.
Mary is not the Mother of God the Father.
But you said Mary is Mother of God.
Then are there 2 different God's in the World?

You may be worshipping another God different from the Only God served by true belivers.
This is why nobody in the Bible called her Mother of God.
Repeatedly I explain you.

Mary is Mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God
therefore
Mary is Mother of God.

God the father is God
Mary is Mother of God
therefore
Mary is Mother of God the Father.

Mary is Mother of God
God the Holy Spirit is God
Mary is Mother of God the Holy Spirit.

Does it take long time for you to understand the contradiction in the Human Syllogism?

Very well--then we agree that you that must either deny that Jesus is God or you deny that Mary is His Mother. Then we're done here. You don't know enough history to have common ground to discuss the subject.

 

[Chemnitz]

Actually, the canon was not agreed upon until the fourth century. This is well attested.

You see I disagree largely because of the passage in 2nd Peter where he refers to the writings of Paul as Scripture. Sure there were a few hold outs in wanting more or less but the books that we have today were largely agreed upon prior to the 4th century. What we have in the 4th century is just a reaffirmation of what the church already knew.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

You see I disagree largely because of the passage in 2nd Peter where he refers to the writings of Paul as Scripture. Sure there were a few hold outs in wanting more or less but the books that we have today were largely agreed upon prior to the 4th century. What we have in the 4th century is just a reaffirmation of what the church already knew.

The seven disputed NT books were 2 Peter, Hebrews, James, Jude, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation, as well as several OT books. IIRC.

 

[Eliyahu]

Very well--then we agree that you that must either deny that Jesus is God or you deny that Mary is His Mother. Then we're done here. You don't know enough history to have common ground to discuss the subject.

I believe Jesus is God. Period.
But I don't call Mary as Mother of God because nobody in the Bible called her in that way.
The Word God is usually understood to mean the Godhead Father when it is not specified with any Godhead, and therefore Mother of God can be misunderstood to mean the Mother of God.
If you cannot believe that Jesus is God without calling Mary as Mother of God, you are obsessed with goddess worhship belief.
Jesus was God before Mary existed on the earth. His deity has nothing to do with Mary.
Jesus said " Before Abraham was, I am" ( John 8:58)
Moses believed in Christ ( Heb 11:26)
Jesus was the Creator of Mary, Producer of Mary. Without Jesus, Mary could not exist on this earth ( Col 1:16, Eph 3:9)

Again, let me show you:

1) Mary is Mother of Jesus
2) Jesus is God.
3) Mary is Mother of God.
4) God the Father is God
5) Mary is Mother of God
6) Mary is Mother of God the Father because God the Father is God.
7) Mary is Mother of God the Holy Spirit because Holy Spirit is God

What is the difference between God in 3) and God in 4) ?

What is the difference between God in 3) and God in 7) ?

God is One, and three Godheads are Tri-Unity.
Nobody in the Bible called Mary as Mother of God, and therefore all the writers of Bible were denying the deity of Jesus ?

Again I want to emphasize that when God is mentioned, it is normally understood meaning God the Father.
When you call Mary as Mother of God, it sounds that Mary produced God the Father, and pre-existed before God the Father.

Nobody in the Bible calls her as Mother of God.

When Elizabeth called Mary " Mother of my Lord" ( Lk 1:43), did she know the Trinity and meant that Oh, the Mother of God is coming! ?
The word Adonai was used by Sarah when she called Abraham as well ( 1 Pet 3:6 )
Jesus called her " woman"
Paul called her " woman"
Luke reported " mother of Jesus"
Mary never called herself as Mother of God, but called God the Savior, which means she herself is a sinner requiring the Savior.( Lk 1:47)

Where is Mother of God mentioned ?

Remember the word " Mother" has 2 important meanings:
1) Produce, Beget, Give birth to.
2) Pre-existence

This word cannot be applied to the God as God has no Father, no Mother, and He exist for Himself as Yehowah means.
Mary was a sinner needing a Savior Luke 1:47. The relationship between Mary and God is mentioned by her. She was a believer and God was the Savior. She never mentioned herself as Mother of God !

 

[Inquiring Mind]

1) Mary is Mother of Jesus
2) Jesus is God.
3) Mary is Mother of God.
4) God the Father is God
5) Mary is Mother of God
6) Mary is Mother of God the Father because God the Father is God.
7) Mary is Mother of God the Holy Spirit because Holy Spirit is God

Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God the Son.
Mary is the Mother of God the Son.
by contraction and because it is easier to say:
Mary is the Mother of God.
Not one person within the EOC or the RCC believes the following:
Mary is the Mother of God the Father
Mary is the Mother of God the Holy Spirit.

Mary is the Mother of God, because she carried Jesus the God in her womb to give God his human nature.

Mary carried a God in her womb.
Mary gave birth to a God.
Mary is the Mother of a God.

Mary is mother of the second person of the Trinity.

Even Elizabeth acknowledged this:

Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Luk 1:43 And2532 whence4159 is this5124 to me,3427 that2443 the3588 mother3384 of my3450 Lord2962 should come2064 to4314 me?3165

As you will notice that the first word given is God.
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

Elizabeth was effectively saying:Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my God should come to me?

Deny Elizabeth and the Bible if you wish.

 

[Eliyahu]

Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God the Son.
Mary is the Mother of God the Son.
by contraction and because it is easier to say:
Mary is the Mother of God.
Not one person within the EOC or the RCC believes the following:
Mary is the Mother of God the Father
Mary is the Mother of God the Holy Spirit.

Mary is the Mother of God, because she carried Jesus the God in her womb to give God his human nature.

Mary carried a God in her womb.
Mary gave birth to a God.
Mary is the Mother of a God.

Mary is mother of the second person of the Trinity.

Even Elizabeth acknowledged this:

Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Luk 1:43 And2532 whence4159 is this5124 to me,3427 that2443 the3588 mother3384 of my3450 Lord2962 should come2064 to4314 me?3165

As you will notice that the first word given is God.
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

Elizabeth was effectively saying:Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my God should come to me?

Deny Elizabeth and the Bible if you wish.

If you know the writings of EOC, could you show me any writings by the Bible Authors calling Mary as Mother of God ?

Are you saying Elizabeth called Mary " Mother of God " ? You are Bible Creator. Roman Catholics and their followers calling Mother of God are the Bible Creators for their goddes worship!

You are saying Mary gave birth to A God, which may have to be corrected
"mary gave birth to a god" Neither Mary called herself as Mother of God, nor called the disciples Theotokos.

You never differentiated God the Father from God in the words of Mother of God.
Nobody in the Bible called Mary as Mother of God, and even in the future, in the heaven nobody will call her Mother of God.
Read Revelation, could you find Mary exalted anywhere ?
People calling Mother of God will be ashamed in the presence of God, as no true believers will call her so.

Calling Mother of God means denying God the Father is God, as they say Mary is Mother of God, but not the Mother of God the Father.
If Mary is Mother of God and God the Father is God, then Mary should be Mother of God the Father. Why do you encounter this contradiction? How could you resolve this problem ? Why does nobody in the Bible call Mother of God ?

In your eyes : Lord is the same as God ?
Let me write down clearly:
L-O-R-D is different from G-O-D in spelling.
Jesus is God and therefore you can call Mary as Mother of Jesus.
Why do you want to stick to Mother of God ?
Isn't it because you are obsessed with goddess worship as I said ?

 

[Eliyahu]

Mary is the Mother of God the Son.

Is Bible wrong :


Heb 7:3

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Bible explains about Melchizedek and says Melchizedek has no mother and is similar to Son of God.
Doesn't it mean that Melchizedek has no mother, no father no end of life, in that sense he is like unto Son of God, right ?
Why bible ignore Mother of God ?

 

[Eliyahu]

You have not answered the following questions:



1) Mary is Mother of Jesus
2) Jesus is God.
3) Mary is Mother of God.
4) God the Father is God
5) Mary is Mother of God
6) Mary is Mother of God the Father because God the Father is God.
7) Mary is Mother of God the Holy Spirit because Holy Spirit is God

What is the difference between God in 3) and God in 4) ?

What is the difference between God in 3) and God in 7) ?


Is God in 3) different from God in 4) ?

Is God in 3) different from God in 7) ?

Please answer by Yes or No!

 

[Inquiring Mind]

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

You ignored the BUT.

Melchizedek was without Father and was without a mother and was without descent having neither beginning of days, nor end of life, BUT ( Unlike Jesus who had both a Father(God) and Mother(Mary), Melchizedek was made like unto the Son of God abiding as a priest continually.


Footnote on7:3 Without father, mother, or ancestry, without beginning of days or end of life: this is perhaps a quotation from a hymn about Melchizedek. The rabbis maintained that anything not mentioned in the Torah does not exist. Consequently, since the Old Testament nowhere mentions Melchizedek's ancestry, birth, or death, the conclusion can be drawn that he remains . . . forever.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You have not answered the following questions:



1) Mary is Mother of Jesus
2) Jesus is God.
3) Mary is Mother of God.
4) God the Father is God
5) Mary is Mother of God
6) Mary is Mother of God the Father because God the Father is God.
7) Mary is Mother of God the Holy Spirit because Holy Spirit is God

What is the difference between God in 3) and God in 4) ?

What is the difference between God in 3) and God in 7) ?


Is God in 3) different from God in 4) ?

Is God in 3) different from God in 7) ?

Please answer by Yes or No!

Yes.

3 is the simplication of "Mary is the Mother of GOD THE SON"

That is the Mystery of the Trinity!

God the Father
is different from
God the Son
is different from
God the Holy Spirit

Three distinct persons make up the Godhead.

Here are some verses that show the dinstinction:

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

You can blaspheme Jesus and be forgiven, but if you blaspheme against the Holy Ghost you can not be forgiven.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Distinction, Distinction, Distincition instead of saying this:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the GOD.

TRHEE DISTINCT PERSONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD.

And yes Godhead is in the bible:

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God. They don't occupy the same space. And I would imagine the Holy Spirit is occupying a place to the left of God.

 

[Chemnitz]

The seven disputed NT books were 2 Peter, Hebrews, James, Jude, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation, as well as several OT books. IIRC.

I know, a few ECF's disputed their inclusion. I will be the first to admit my position is a matter of faith, but I seriously doubt God would leave His word in the lurch for 400 years. In my research of the canon, I have found a decided lack of first century writing and very little 2nd century evidence. My theory is that because St. John did not die until ~100 A.D. there was no need for any lists because 1) an apostle still lived 2) after his death most church leaders had studied with John and there for learned from him what was canonical 3) pseudopigraphal writings didn't start appearing until ~150 A.D. therefore there was little to be confused by in the church.

Tauf you are wasting your time with Eliyahu, he is horribly afraid of admitting that the ECF's are right concerning theotokos because he would have to admit the RCC is right about something.

 

[Eliyahu]

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

You ignored the BUT.

Melchizedek was without Father and was without a mother and was without descent having neither beginning of days, nor end of life, BUT ( Unlike Jesus who had both a Father(God) and Mother(Mary), Melchizedek was made like unto the Son of God abiding as a priest continually.


Footnote on7:3 Without father, mother, or ancestry, without beginning of days or end of life: this is perhaps a quotation from a hymn about Melchizedek. The rabbis maintained that anything not mentioned in the Torah does not exist. Consequently, since the Old Testament nowhere mentions Melchizedek's ancestry, birth, or death, the conclusion can be drawn that he remains . . . forever.

The word in Greek behind But is De which can mean " But", "And", "Rather"
It doesn't mean that Melchizedek had no father, no mother, no beginning of days, no end of life, abideth as Priest continually ( forever), But Son of God does have father, have mother, have the beginning of days, have the end of life, is not priest forever.
The reason why Bible inserted " But " is because, Melchizedek had no end of life, "INSTEAD" He was similar to Son of God.
Do you know why ?

Actually Melchizedek was the Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ, having no beginning, no end of life.
Bible says He was made like unto Son of God, which sounds like mentioning different persons.
However, Bible was comparing 2 stages of one person.
One photo was the one of Pre-Incarnate ( like Infant's) and the other photo was the one of post Incarnate Jesus Christ ( like grown-up adult's photo).
Both persons are very similar because they had no earthly father, no earthly mother, no beginning of days, no end of life, remaining as Priest forever. Who can be the permanent Priest except Christ ?