Consequences of the Warning Passages in Hebrews

[James_Newman]

I am not familiar with the concept that believers are chastened for their sins in this life. Where do you find that?

Hebrews 12:5-11
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[James_Newman]

This has abosutely NOTHING to with a believer as Christ will NEVER deny us!

2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

If the second half doesn't apply to us, then neither does the first.

 

[swaimj]

James, chastening is not the same as punishment, of which you have spoken earlier. The chastening spoken of here is a corrective measure to make us more mature and more like Christ. This is different from being punished for sins in the sense of atoning or paying for our own sin. We do not atone for our own sins in this life or in the next. To argue for such is to insult the completed work of Christ which was accomplished on the cross.

 

[Linda64]

I am not familiar with the concept that believers are chastened for their sins in this life. Where do you find that?

I think James might be referring to Hebrews 12:6-9:

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? (Hebrews 12:6-9)

CHASTEN

Chastening involves the entire work of discipline, not only correction, but teaching and guiding and encouraging (Heb 12:5-11). The Hebrew word translated "chasten" (Pr 22:15) is translated "discipline" (Job 36:10), "doctrine" (Jer 10:8), "instruction" (Pr 8:33), and "rebuke" (Ho 5:2). The Greek word for chasten, paideia, is translated "learned" (Ac 7:22), "taught" (Ac 22:3), "instruct" (2Ti 2:25), "nurture" (Eph 6:4), "punish" (Lu 23:16), and "teach" (Tit 2:12). Thus the Bible doctrine of chastening incorporates the entire realm of child training-instructing and guiding in the right way and correcting the erring one.

How Does God Chasten?
(1) Through the Scriptures (2Ti 2:25; 3:16).
(2) Through grace (Tit 2:12). Grace is a powerful motivator. The more the child of God learns of God's goodness and mercy toward him through Jesus Christ, the more he wants to serve him. We love him because he first loved us (1Jo 4:10,19; Ps 116:1).
(3) Through Satan (1Ti 1:20).
(4) Through sickness and death (1Co 11:32; Ps 38:1-8).
(5) Through the circumstances of life (Jas 1:1-27; Ro 5:1-21; 1Pe 1:1-25).

Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible

Chastisment is NEVER for sins. All our sins were paid for on the Cross (past, present, and future).

Look at the Corinthian Church--talk about carnal--they were it!! But, Paul calls them brethren:

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:1)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

If one professes Christ and they don't feel the chastening Hand of God in their life, maybe he/she should examine themself to see whether they are in the faith.

 

[swaimj]

Linda 64 said

Chastisment is NEVER for sins.

I think you are in agreement on this passage. Yes, we are chastened to correct us and make us more like Christ. No, our chastening is not an exaction of payment for sins.

 

[Linda64]

Linda 64 said

I think you are in agreement on this passage. Yes, we are chastened to correct us and make us more like Christ. No, our chastening is not an exaction of payment for sins.

AMEN swaimj!! If our chastening were an exaction of payment for our sins, then the Blood of Christ was not sufficient--and then we can get into "works" salvation.

 

[James_Newman]

The difference between chastening and punishment is academic. The bible makes no such distinction.

Leviticus 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Leviticus 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

Chastening is punishment. God punishes as a corrective measure. If God punishes us in this life for sin, and that is not an insult to the completed work of Christ, then punishment at the judgment seat is neither an insult nor is it out of God's character to do so. Christ has given us everything we need in order to overcome sin, and if we do not avail ourselves of that grace, how can we expect to go unpunished?

Hebrews 2:1-3
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

 

[swaimj]

No James. Punishment and correction are completely different and are quite distinguishable. God punishes the wicked for their sin. He corrects his children for their sin. His son bore our punishment. We will never bear it, praise God!

 

[James_Newman]

Then distinguish punishment and chastisement in Leviticus 26 for me. Show me the difference, don't just tell me its different. And then explain how an unsaved man can be sanctified by the blood.

Hebrews 10:29
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[swaimj]

When Leviticus was written, Christ had not yet shed his blood for men. Leviticus lays out the terms and conditions of the Old Covenant. The book of Hebrews gives us the good news of the New Covenant made possible by Christ. Why are you appealing to the Old Covenant and attempting to put New Covenant believers back under the Old?

 

[David Michael Harris]

I pray to God that before I die I will be able to explain this part of Scripture that captivates so many Christians, what ever their reasons.

It's quite clear that the people who the writer talks about do not give a hoot about Christianity, also, whom the Lord loves He disciplines.

The ultimate question should be, 'can you be a born again person and not be of the Elect of God'?

Well?

It is a very valid question...the Bible is full of it, sow back to it's wallowing, dog to it's vomit etc...

If you are destined for heaven, you will feel the backhand of God when you do wrong.

I am too afraid to say what I believe at times because I cannot explain myself adequately.

Gosh I want to get to the bottom of this question that facinates today's Church.

David

 

[James_Newman]

When Leviticus was written, Christ had not yet shed his blood for men. Leviticus lays out the terms and conditions of the Old Covenant. The book of Hebrews gives us the good news of the New Covenant made possible by Christ. Why are you appealing to the Old Covenant and attempting to put New Covenant believers back under the Old?

I'm appealing to the old testament for a definition of chastise and a definition of punish. Do you suppose the meaning of the words changed after the cross?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

We are the elect of God. This verse is clearly a statement of OSAS. If I could reword it...

The question is "Draw back from what into perdition"? Faith. That's the way I interpret it.

 

[James_Newman]

I pray to God that before I die I will be able to explain this part of Scripture that captivates so many Christians, what ever their reasons.

It's quite clear that the people who the writer talks about do not give a hoot about Christianity, also, whom the Lord loves He disciplines.

The ultimate question should be, 'can you be a born again person and not be of the Elect of God'?

Well?

It is a very valid question...the Bible is full of it, sow back to it's wallowing, dog to it's vomit etc...

If you are destined for heaven, you will feel the backhand of God when you do wrong.

I am too afraid to say what I believe at times because I cannot explain myself adequately.

Gosh I want to get to the bottom of this question that facinates today's Church.

David

Thats exactly it, David. All believers, though saved by the blood, are not the elect.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Thats exactly it, David. All believers, though saved by the blood, are not the elect.

Your being vague, please clarify!

We have to go through a thousand Scriptures about being bought, ransomed, Grace being Grace etc...

Is it all about being 'CALLED' to heaven?

David

 

[James_Newman]

Anyone who believes on Jesus is going to be saved on the last day, but believers have been called to something greater. Reigning with Jesus Christ during His millennial kingdom is the prize of the high calling that Paul spoke of.

Phi 3:13-14
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul knew he was saved, he was pressing toward something else.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Anyone who believes on Jesus is going to be saved on the last day, but believers have been called to something greater. Reigning with Jesus Christ during His millennial kingdom is the prize of the high calling that Paul spoke of.

Phi 3:13-14
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul knew he was saved, he was pressing toward something else.

Your losing me in your own theology.

Once saved, always saved, that's my opinion, but is being born again a gurantee that your saved?

Btw, I am just working things out here! Not putting forth doctrine.

David

 

[James_Newman]

Your losing me in your own theology.

Once saved, always saved, that's my opinion, but is being born again a gurantee that your saved?

Btw, I am just working things out here! Not putting forth doctrine.

David

Jesus' blood on the cross is the guarantee. Accept no substitutes for the Substitute.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Jesus' blood on the cross is the guarantee. Accept no substitutes for the Substitute.

Alors, as we say in France, I do not believe that if your have been bought by that Blood you can be seperated.

We are totally helpless. Salvation is all Grace.

My own personal experience is that I could not ever not be a Christian now, why? Because, of the Call of God! It's too late if you like, God has spoken and that's that.

 

[MB]

Your losing me in your own theology.

Once saved, always saved, that's my opinion, but is being born again a gurantee that your saved?

Btw, I am just working things out here! Not putting forth doctrine.

David

Hi David;
I can tell you what it means to me.
Being born again is being made new by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is being saved. You cannot be indwelled by the Holy Spirit and be lost. We can only be born again by the Grace of God and it is always through faith.
Paul said;
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We cannot stand in His Grace unless we've been justified by faith.
MB