Consider Jack and Joe - who is worse?

[Aaron]

Just because our view is more 'palatable' to any mind (regenerated or not), doesn't make it less likely to be true. That dodges the point. The point is that many Calvinists attempt to claim that OUR view holds mankind to be better than than are (a 'higher view of man'), when in fact this comparison shows that to be a false claim. Our view paints man in a much worse light and God in a much better light, while your view paints man in the better light and God in the worse light. Yet, you all continue to accuse us of painting mankind in a better light. Your view is not 'palatable' to the Christian mind (by even the testimony of many CAlvinists who only come to believe your dogma after being convinced) and the reason is that it paints God as less holy and gracious than he actually is.

Aaron, if you think less palatability is a badge of honor, go right ahead, but Satanism isn't real palatable either....Does that mean we should adopt it too? :laugh:

Question beg much?

 

[Aaron]

Wrong...Christ died.

When He became sin.

 

[webdog]

When He became sin.

No, when He became human.

 

[Aaron]

Dude. You need to learn the Gospel.

 

[webdog]

Dude. You need to learn the Gospel.

Dude. You need to find a short pier and take a long walk.

 

[OldRegular]

Your short rebuttal is useless, inflammatory, unnecessary, and worthy of rebuke.

Not really. My response was truthful. It is pointless to attempt a response to remarks such as those by Benjamin!

I understand that I am a thorn in the side of some Skandelon and that is fine but I am not the only thorn on the board. Some moderators, who should be impartial, have exhibited open hostility to my posts because they don't comport with their doctrine. I have questioned no ones salvation, my salvation has been questioned, which is a No! No!, yet that questioning was passed over.

You accuse my post of being inflammatory. I ask you, are the following remarks in Benjamin"s post inflammatory!

Actually, your answer makes me cringe!

Oh! Trust me, I do and have nothing to hold back - as in a belief that others might not have any hope. As a matter of fact if one isn’t all spoiled rotten (Col 2:8) because of buying into the Systematic Determinist’ traditions of trying to force fit pre-selection election he can clearly see the scripture makes clear promises to all that is the exact opposite of the teaching of the “Doctrine of Forget Hope/Determinism” in that all are offered grace on one real condition, through faith. (Eph 2:9)

I am concerned about your preference to leave the condition of one’s own free response of faith out of the salvific message all-together, whether it is for yourself or others.

It is as if those of the Determinist persuasion hate the fact that they would have to confess in faith from their own heart of their own free will and rather love to profess the message of darkness:

Did you have no choice? Did faith have to be determined upon you??? Sad ,sad, sad, where is the love of the truth in that nonsensical determinist’ view which is clearly contrary to Romans 10:9 and 10 and the whole purpose of God in creating the world in love and revealing this Light to all in it what He did for us?

Yes, please do be honest, don’t take out the condition of faith from your doctrine, throw out that deterministic garb about grace which makes one ashamed to even tell others that God loves and died for them for the purpose to bring a genuine offer of grace to all in the world He created, and also be honest to yourself, because the condition of true faith from one’s own heart is the only way one is justified and freely receives grace from God.

You don’t know that you were specially pre-selected, you can’t claim faith that didn’t come from your own heart, don’t be deceived even the devils believe yet they tremble, one needs faith in love of the Truth that God is Love which only comes from knowing Him and loving Him from your own heart.

Is Benjamin questioning my salvation and the salvation of all who believe as I do in a clever deceitful way?

Friend, I could go on all day and night telling what the scripture says and it doesn’t ever exclude anyone from hope except those who refuse to believe, or have faith from within their own hearts after hearing the truth. Again, God's judgment in the matter is not made against those who could not respond as He is judges in truth. (Deut 32:4) And I would never come to the point that I could not be transparently honest or be deterred away from proclaiming that all have hope in the promise of God’s grace through faith because of some foolish doctrine that tries to force fit determinism into God's plan of salvation.

It is pure wickedness to ever preach some may have no hope (as some here have admittted doing) because of suggesting others may not have the ability to respond to God’s light which He gave to everyman in the world to see and the genuine abiity to respond to. Stop buying into the condemnation of people through your man-made deterministic doctrine of pre-selected election, it does the work of the devil in telling people they may have been created without hope, he doesn’t want them to have faith from their own heart and he does wants them to believe they have an excuse to not respond; the determinist' message of darkness for some is clearly contrary to the word of God!

Addendum:

I would also point out Skandelon that two of my first three posts are as follows. Nothing inflammatory in these which express my opinion as far as presenting the Gospel to the unsaved. The 3rd was a response to you.

Actually the only thing one can say about anybody is that until God saved them they were by nature the children of wrath.

We can also say that those God has chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ will in God's own time be saved. So in reality there is no Jack! He is a figment of your vivid imagination!

My own personal opinion is that the Doctrines of Grace are meaningful for believers only, as is Arminian doctrine. I believe "Earth, Wind & Fire" said it best:

Once again Scan, we Christians do not offer Christ on the basis of the person who hears the offer is Elect----but we offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who come to Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

Jesus died to save all sinners, not just the elect.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

You cannot get around this scripture, because it distinguishes between those who believe and those who do not, and says Jesus is the Saviour of ALL MEN.

.We do not have to get around it....just understand what it says

He is the saviour of all men......there is no other saviour:
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


That is what it is talking about.:thumbs:

ALL MEN are sinners, if Jesus died for sinners then he died for all men.

Nothing said that, and the language of the covenant does not require it.

When you say Jesus died for sinners, you redefine "sinners" to mean "the elect only".

We do not have to, because the church is made up of sinners.
All the elect are sinners even as others. God elects them out of fallen humanity because no man seeks God ......no...not one..... eph2 1-3
Winman....Jesus would not have to say....I lay down my life for the sheep....if he laid down His life for all men...

PAUL would not have to say he purchased the church with His own blood...if he died for all.

You do not even know if you are elect if your doctrine is true. You could be self deceived. You could believe the world is flat, doesn't make it so. Likewise, you could believe you are the elect, but if Jesus did not die for you, you are out of luck if your doctrine is true.

On the contrary...satan would attempt to accuse me that way...however:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I believe Jesus, His person and work , His covenant promises:thumbs:

And if you understood Limited Atonement is false, then you could know for a certainty that Jesus died for you and everyone you might witness to. For the first time you could look any man in the eyes and honestly tell him that Jesus loved him and died for his sins. But you can't do that.

I have no desire to be unfaithful and disobedient to the word.In fact I believe telling sinners the truth about election and God's covenant is more proper and biblically compelling.
I do not struggle with this at all...in fact it gets results .

 

[humblethinker]

Real-Life Witnessing scenario from my pastor: An unsaved man comes to him with questions about Romans 9, (God choosing to have mercy on some and not others...vessels prepared for destruction...etc). So our pastor lays it out, Election and all, and then says, if you don't repent and trust in Christ, you will be one of these who are destined for destruction.

Yet, it is already the case that he was one of the elect or not. So, how would you reason with someone who replies, "It cannot be argued against that doing what one actually does proves the predetermination of God and it is the case that it can not, could not and will not be different than what is, was and will be."

-Honest, and yes, with paradox...but it is a paradox that many calvinists live with, because we see passages where it seems to say God chooses who he will save...But also calls on all to repent.

It does not seem like a paradox to me, but a contradiction, and live with it the calvinist must.

 

[humblethinker]

Thank you Benjamin, I too have lost all patience with determinism and its horrible implications. Although I have greater patience with those who buy it. Thank God that he is patient with us all!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[DiamondLady]

To bring this thread to the core, without Jesus, both are worthless, and deserving of hell.

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE???? These two men are bound for the pits of HELL! You're involved in a worthless spitting contest (not the word I wanted to use but ....).

Isn't it worth the effort to SPEAK to BOTH these men about Jesus? To see if we can open their eyes to truth.

These two camps are man's interpretation of what they THINK God is saying. Of course, each one thinks they're absolutely correct. However, isn't what really matters what GOD thinks, what GOD does??? I read in His Word to ask, to call upon the name of the Lord, that God would that not one be lost....seems to me the wise thing to do is sit down with the two J's and talk to them about salvation and let GOD do the rest.

 

[convicted1]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE???? These two men are bound for the pits of HELL! You're involved in a worthless spitting contest (not the word I wanted to use but ....).

Isn't it worth the effort to SPEAK to BOTH these men about Jesus? To see if we can open their eyes to truth.

These two camps are man's interpretation of what they THINK God is saying. Of course, each one thinks they're absolutely correct. However, isn't what really matters what GOD thinks, what GOD does??? I read in His Word to ask, to call upon the name of the Lord, that God would that not one be lost....seems to me the wise thing to do is sit down with the two J's and talk to them about salvation and let GOD do the rest.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

This whole thread is much ado about nothing(kinda like who shot John). Not one lost person, who comes to God in faith believing, will He cast aside. I agree that we need to speak to all sinners in the same manner. That w/o God in their lives, they will suffer in eternal torment.

 

[Skandelon]

Question beg much?

How is that question begging? I didn't presume true a point up for debate. I simply argued that a doctrine being more or less palatable tells us nothing about the truth of that doctrine. And I showed that wasn't even the point of the OP...a point, btw, that you have yet to address.

 

[OldRegular]

Not one lost person, who comes to God in faith believing, will He cast aside. I agree that we need to speak to all sinners in the same manner. That w/o God in their lives, they will suffer in eternal torment.

I agree convicted1. That is the way I was saved, I believe that is the way all are saved.

That being said, once I was saved and understand Scripture I can ask the question: Why do I believe and others do not? Why is it that others "could care less"? I believe Scripture provides that answer, and the answer is that Salvation is only through the Sovereign Grace of God; what some call the Doctrines of Grace and others call "Calvinism".

 

[convicted1]

I agree convicted1. That is the way I was saved, I believe that is the way all are saved.

That being said, once I was saved and understand Scripture I can ask the question: Why do I believe and others do not? Why is it that others "could care less"? I believe Scripture provides that answer, and the answer is that Salvation is only through the Sovereign Grace of God; what some call the Doctrines of Grace and others call "Calvinism".

You know, Brother Baker, there are things I find in the scriptures that causes me to pause, and really think about what I believe. Many times, I implore God to show me if I am wrong or not. I am not saying I am 100% sure in what I believe, but it is what I have gleaned from my studies. That being said, I do wonder at times if I am correct.

 

[12strings]

How can you compare two species? Using this logic we should compare ourselves to animals.

Angels were only part of the question...the other was saved humans in heaven...They don't sin...it is because God somehow prevents them, overriding their free willl...and if the answer is no, but they no longer want to sin...why is that?

Why Does free will automatically mean 100% sin? Seems like it would be more around 50%...if free will is defined as not being caused to make one decision or the other, but each person makes thier own decision...?

For me the only answer to this is that we are each born with a sin nature.

 

[convicted1]

Angels were only part of the question...the other was saved humans in heaven...They don't sin...it is because God somehow prevents them, overriding their free willl...and if the answer is no, but they no longer want to sin...why is that?

Why Does free will automatically mean 100% sin? Seems like it would be more around 50%...if free will is defined as not being caused to make one decision or the other, but each person makes thier own decision...?

For me the only answer to this is that we are each born with a sin nature.

I kinda think the answer to why we will not sin in heaven has to do with our bodies. We were created with corruptible bodies, but in heaven, we will have a body likened unto Jesus' most glorious body. Our bodies there will be incorruptible.

 

[Winman]

If the answer to "Why do all men sin?" is "because they can." Then by your logic why do not the angels who did not fall in the original rebellion sin? Why will we not be sinning up a storm in heaven? Has God overcome the free will of angels and those dead saints because he values their continued state of sinlessness more than he values their individual free will?

I could ask you the same question, only in reverse, why did any angels rebel at all? Two thirds of the angles never sinned, so why did one third sin and rebel? Obviously at least one third of the angels had free will, otherwise they could not have sinned.

This is a common Calvinist tactic, to ask a question that no one can answer. Somehow they feel this supports their doctrine when it does not.

Calvinists often ask if men have free will, why has not one man in history never sinned? Well, the answer is that there is one man who has never sinned, and that was Jesus Christ.

Asking questions that no one can answer does not prove either side in this debate.

To me it is not surprising that all men sin, we live in a wicked world with thousands of temptations. What is remarkable to me is that Jesus could live as a man in this wicked world and never sin.

 

[convicted1]

Angels were only part of the question...the other was saved humans in heaven...They don't sin...it is because God somehow prevents them, overriding their free willl...and if the answer is no, but they no longer want to sin...why is that?

Why Does free will automatically mean 100% sin? Seems like it would be more around 50%...if free will is defined as not being caused to make one decision or the other, but each person makes thier own decision...?

For me the only answer to this is that we are each born with a sin nature.

Jesus took on the nature of Abraham, and yet was sinless. How then did He escape this in His fleshly body? He was tempted in all points such as we are, and yet was sinless. If we are born with a sin nature, then how did Jesus bypass this, seeing that He was born by Mary?

BTW, I do believe that Jesus was tempted, but was not able to sin, because He was/is God manifested in the flesh.

 

[Cypress]

Real-Life Witnessing scenario from my pastor: An unsaved man comes to him with questions about Romans 9, (God choosing to have mercy on some and not others...vessels prepared for destruction...etc). So our pastor lays it out, Election and all, and then says, if you don't repent and trust in Christ, you will be one of these who are destined for destruction.

-Honest, and yes, with paradox...but it is a paradox that many calvinists live with, because we see passages where it seems to say God chooses who he will save...But also calls on all to repent.

As honest and paradoxical as kicking him out of an airplane at 5000 feet and telling him to pull the ripcord or he will die. Only the elect have parachutes.

 

[Skandelon]

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE???? These two men are bound for the pits of HELL! You're involved in a worthless spitting contest (not the word I wanted to use but ....).

Isn't it worth the effort to SPEAK to BOTH these men about Jesus? To see if we can open their eyes to truth.

These two camps are man's interpretation of what they THINK God is saying. Of course, each one thinks they're absolutely correct. However, isn't what really matters what GOD thinks, what GOD does??? I read in His Word to ask, to call upon the name of the Lord, that God would that not one be lost....seems to me the wise thing to do is sit down with the two J's and talk to them about salvation and let GOD do the rest.

I think you missed the point of the OP (and apparently so did many others). The point wasn't whether or not we should attempt to witness to these individuals. That is a given. The point was to contrast the two systematic views of mankind to demonstrate that the non-Calvinistic view doesn't have a 'higher view of man' as is often the claim of those from the Calvinistic camp. Both of these men don't even exist. They are representations of what a lost man would look like in each of the respective world-views. It is a suppositional argument where we suppose each of the views is correct so as to compare them side by side. Understand?