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Conspiracy theorists rejoice: JFK files soon to be released.

Baptist Believer

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That brings up another question, how did the police get on to him so fast? What was it, two hours or less before he was in custody?
They figured out where at least some of the shots came from fairly quickly due to witness on the 5th floor, so they sealed the building and took roll of everyone who was employed by the depository company - Oswald was AWOL. The police sent out a description of Oswald so they they could interview him. They searched the building carefully and did not find anyone else there. At the same time, Officer J.D. Tippet, having received a description of Oswald, saw Oswald walking through the Oak Cliff neighborhood along 10th Street, near Patton Avenue, and stopped to talk to him, immediately after Tippet stepped out of his car, Oswald pulled a handgun and shot Tippet four times. Twelve people witnessed the shooting or saw Oswald rushing from the scene after hearing gunshots and notified police dispatchers. Oswald went past a number of storefronts, looking for a place to get off of the street, and then rushed into the Texas Theater - without paying - and took a seat in the darkened room. Oswald's actions shooting the police officer, rushing from the scene, and going into the Texas Theater without paying caused him to get picked up quickly. He was arrested for the murder of Officer Tippet. He was only after those actions was suspected to be the assassin of JFK and shooter of Governor Connelly.

It's really quite simple and straightforward. If you have explored the path from that part of downtown to Oak Cliff, it is easy to retrace the route and understand how it all happened. The Texas Theater still stands.

For what it's worth, he was taken into custody a little over an hour after the assassination.
 
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Baptist Believer

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But really, those that initiated the killing of Kennedy were not going to take any chances and Oswald had to be eliminated at all costs - and he was. Imagine, the guy was actually gunned down at the Dallas Police Headquarters of all places.
He was murdered by Jack Ruby, a man well-known to the police officers and was a frequent visitor to the station. He could get in to the transfer because he was known and was not considered a threat.

Oswald was particularly vulnerable to being murdered since he was handcuffed and being led around by a detective. He could not move well enough to dodge or defend himself. Like most people, the police had not considered the idea that someone might try to shoot Oswald without the chance to get away. And Ruby did not get away.

Now that's what I call having the power to get what you want done accomplished. And people claim there was no conspiracy? Yeah right.
All you need is a shred of evidence instead of simple allegations and you might have something.
 

Adonia

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He was murdered by Jack Ruby, a man well-known to the police officers and was a frequent visitor to the station. He could get in to the transfer because he was known and was not considered a threat.

Then he was the perfect man for the job.
 

Adonia

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They figured out where at least some of the shots came from fairly quickly due to witness on the 5th floor, so they sealed the building and took roll of everyone who was employed by the depository company - Oswald was AWOL. The police sent out a description of Oswald so they they could interview him. They searched the building carefully and did not find anyone else there. At the same time, Officer J.D. Tippet, having received a description of Oswald, saw Oswald walking through the Oak Cliff neighborhood along 10th Street, near Patton Avenue, and stopped to talk to him, immediately after Tippet stepped out of his car, Oswald pulled a handgun and shot Tippet four times. Twelve people witnessed the shooting or saw Oswald rushing from the scene after hearing gunshots and notified police dispatchers. Oswald went past a number of storefronts, looking for a place to get off of the street, and then rushed into the Texas Theater - without paying - and took a seat in the darkened room. Oswald's actions shooting the police officer, rushing from the scene, and going into the Texas Theater without paying caused him to get picked up quickly. He was arrested for the murder of Officer Tippet. He was only after those actions was suspected to be the assassin of JFK and shooter of Governor Connelly.

One could say that he played his part perfectly. He goes scurrying off in one direction while the real killers go off on theirs. Good job though and I will say that you certainly have all your story down, but you haven't convinced me yet.
 

Don

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I'm reminded (yet again) of a quote (paraphrased):
1st person: What do the records reveal?
2nd person: Nothing of consequence.
1st person: I must know...
2nd person: Get used to disappointment.
1st person: 'kay.
 

Baptist Believer

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One could say that he played his part perfectly.
"One can say" all kinds of crazy things. Your claim was that there was something suspicious about how quickly he was taken into custody. I simply presented the facts. It was quite reasonable why he was picked up so quickly and I can provide documentation for all of it, if pressed. I could also physically take you there if you were to visit. I'm not sure that some of the people who propagate the conspiracy have ever visited all of the sites.

He goes scurrying off in one direction while the real killers go off on theirs.
If there are additional "real killers." You have not presented evidence.

Good job though and I will say that you certainly have all your story down, but you haven't convinced me yet.
Of course I won't be able to convince you. You promised me that you are close-minded and have made a decision not to find any evidence that disputes your conspiracy theories credible.

The reason I "have my story down" is that I used to believe the conspiracy books, but one day I realized that the so-called evidence in the conspiracy books and in the movie JFK wasn't always accurate. That's when I started examining the crucial evidence without the latent paranoia that is often dished out in the books.

I am fortunate enough to live in North Texas and have had regular business on the West End neighborhood of downtown Dallas, so I have been to Dealey Plaza more than I can count. I have also given informal tours of the site to visiting friends and family over the years and have been able to explore the area, not only with photographic evidence, but by walking through the site, standing in the various places where shooters allegedly stood, etc. I have also been on the sixth and seventh floors of the former Texas School Book Depository warehouse on at least half a dozen occasions. I haven't memorized the Warren Commission's report - frankly, I haven't read it. I've just looked at the evidence the conspiracists have put forward over the years and have found it wanting. If that's the most compelling evidence of a conspiracy, then I have to seriously question whether there is any evidence for a conspiracy at all, or if it is simply in the heads of the conspirators.

I'm ready to be proven wrong at any time - frankly, I would like there to be an exciting find in the documents about to be released that completely reshapes our understanding of the investigation, but I sincerely don't expect it. I'm a lover of history and knowledge, and I would like there to be an exciting twist to this whole intensely sad story. Among conspiracy believers, I see lots sincere people who want to believe that the head of our government could not simply be struck down by a random maladjusted loner - that it would take something far greater than one person to do it. Among the sellers of the conspiracy, I see a fair number of opportunistic people who have found a way to make a quick buck, as well as others who are sincere people who have fallen down a rabbit-hole of their own theories.

I am open to evidence, but you haven't been able to provide anything compelling... just falsehoods (the doctor who did the autopsy wasn't a pathologist) and suggestions about the motivations of key figures.
 

Baptist Believer

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As it turns out, President Trump is delaying the release of the documents in the interests of national security. We'll see what happens.
 

InTheLight

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Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
 

Adonia

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The reason I "have my story down" is that I used to believe the conspiracy books, but one day I realized that the so-called evidence in the conspiracy books and in the movie JFK wasn't always accurate. That's when I started examining the crucial evidence without the latent paranoia that is often dished out in the books.

I see, so now you have seen the light and changed your ways. There is no one more correct than a convert, right?

I am fortunate enough to live in North Texas and have had regular business on the West End neighborhood of downtown Dallas, so I have been to Dealey Plaza more than I can count. I have also given informal tours of the site to visiting friends and family over the years and have been able to explore the area, not only with photographic evidence, but by walking through the site, standing in the various places where shooters allegedly stood, etc. I have also been on the sixth and seventh floors of the former Texas School Book Depository warehouse on at least half a dozen occasions.

While I do not live in the Dallas area, I too have visited Dealey Plaza and spent several hours there and have done all that you have described. Your having visited often does not mean that you have some special insight to the things that happened that fateful day. All you have done is superimposed what you have seen there into your head and have come up with your particular conclusions with what you know from all the sources available. You are not some sort of professional investigator, or super sleuth, but an amateur just like me who is simply interested in the subject.

I am open to evidence, but you haven't been able to provide anything compelling... just falsehoods (the doctor who did the autopsy wasn't a pathologist) and suggestions about the motivations of key figures.

Fair enough about the autopsy and I will concede your point there. You can call the testimony from the various marksmen falsehoods, but I think that their opinions are something that should be taken into account as they attempted to recreate what Oswald was supposed to have done. Like I said in an earlier post, the minute I looked out the 6th floor window it hit me that the shot to take was when the limo was coming towards you, not when it was going away. But anyway, it is enjoyable to debate this topic with you no matter where we both come out on it.
 

Baptist Believer

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I see, so now you have seen the light and changed your ways. There is no one more correct than a convert, right?
Uh, no. I'm just explaining why I "have all my story down" as you said. The insinuation you made is that I have it all rehearsed instead of it coming from personal knowledge of working through the evidence.

While I do not live in the Dallas area, I too have visited Dealey Plaza and spent several hours there and have done all that you have described. Your having visited often does not mean that you have some special insight to the things that happened that fateful day.
Extreme familiarity with the area and frequent visits over the course of more than 25 years provides more insight than "several hours" of visiting.

All you have done is superimposed what you have seen there into your head...
I don't know what you mean by "superimposed."

...and have come up with your particular conclusions with what you know from all the sources available.
That's what an investigator does. And my particular conclusions reached (with bias against my eventual conclusions) happen to line up nicely with the official investigation conducted by agencies with many more resources than I have.

You are not some sort of professional investigator, or super sleuth, but an amateur just like me who is simply interested in the subject.
I am actually a researcher of many things (I am a professional writer), so I know more than a few things about research and investigator. I am not a professional criminal investigator, but I have conducted professional criminal investigations in my previous career. I also know quite a bit about epistemology, so I am quite adept at evaluating truth claims based on evidence.

You can call the testimony from the various marksmen falsehoods, but I think that their opinions are something that should be taken into account as they attempted to recreate what Oswald was supposed to have done.
I have not dismissed them, but I evaluate their testimony on the basis of the testimony of others who claim to have made the shots. Moreover, Oswald was quite familiar/obsessive with his rifle and practiced with it all the time. I don't know if any of the marksmen you cite had obsessively practiced with the rifle for months, working the bolt action, before attempting the shots. That would have the effect of loosening up the action and well as developing the muscle memory and technique so it could be done without conscious thought, leaving Oswald's mind clear to focus on target acquisition and proper aim for each round.

Like I said in an earlier post, the minute I looked out the 6th floor window it hit me that the shot to take was when the limo was coming towards you, not when it was going away.
(1) "Proper," if you were not human and had no psychological qualms about shooting someone in the face.
(2) "Proper," if you wanted to take the chance that the forward-scanning Secret Service would see you extend your rifle out of the window.
(3) "Proper," if you cared nothing about escape and were willing to have your sniper's nest peppered with return fire almost immediately after the first shot.

By waiting for the limo to make the sharp turn at the base of the building and pivot away, Oswald also had a clear firing line to the limo when all of the Secret Service attention was directed toward the crowds on the grass, the grassy knoll and structures along the right side, and the triple overpass. They were also probably thinking about how they were about to enter Stemmons Freeway and their configuration for the higher speeds on their way to the Trademart.

It was actually a more tactical time to take the shots.

That sort of analysis comes from being at the site multiple times, looking out the windows, watching the Zapruder film on the very spot where I was shot, considering various scenarios, and determining how I would have done it if I wanted to survive the encounter and continue my life as a revolutionary.
 

Adonia

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So today, some of the info is coming out about what was in the JFK files. FBI director Hoover wrote a memo on Nov. 25, 1963, that "the public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

The evidence needs to be followed to it's logical conclusion and the public need not be "led" to believe things that are not true. That is what we, the citizens of this country deserve - the truth and nothing but the truth because we are the one's who are paying to keep the whole darned system afloat.
 

Adonia

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Extreme familiarity with the area and frequent visits over the course of more than 25 years provides more insight than "several hours" of visiting.

I am actually a researcher of many things (I am a professional writer), so I know more than a few things about research and investigator. I am not a professional criminal investigator, but I have conducted professional criminal investigations in my previous career. I also know quite a bit about epistemology, so I am quite adept at evaluating truth claims based on evidence.

Very good. There are other people in this world that have dedicated their lives to finding out the truth about this issue, some even to the point of moving to the Dallas area. They too have an "extreme familiarity" with the area because of "frequent visits", so you are not the only one. Some of these people have produced numerous books and videos and they all have come up with different conclusions than yours and the Warren Commissions. You claim that you yourself have come up with the truth because of your investigations, guess what, so have they.

This issue parallels exactly how we interpret the Holy Scriptures. While we can agree on certain basic things, we come up with different conclusions on other truths relayed in them. Just like with your chosen faith tradition, you have satisfied yourself about this issue with what you have found and that in the end is all that really counts.
 
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Baptist Believer

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So today, some of the info is coming out about what was in the JFK files. FBI director Hoover wrote a memo on Nov. 25, 1963, that "the public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

The evidence needs to be followed to it's logical conclusion and the public need not be "led" to believe things that are not true. That is what we, the citizens of this country deserve - the truth and nothing but the truth because we are the one's who are paying to keep the whole darned system afloat.
You are putting an unwarranted twist on Hoover's words. He wants the public to have confidence in the evidence. That's why the Warren Commission was put together - to follow the evidence to it's logical conclusion. You insinuate that it was put together to frame up Oswald. The quote from Hoover does not support your insinuation.
 

Baptist Believer

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Very good. There are other people in this world that have dedicated their lives to finding out the truth about this issue, some even to the point of moving to the Dallas area. They too have an "extreme familiarity" with the area because of "frequent visits", so you are not the only one.
Never said I was.

Some of these people have produced numerous books and videos and they all have come up with different conclusions than yours and the Warren Commissions. You claim that you yourself have come up with the truth because of your investigations, guess what, so have they.
But there's a fundamental difference: I have not published a thing on about a conspiracy, nor created any videos. There is no profit motive for me, nor is my reputation or life's work in jeopardy if I realize that there actually is no conspiracy. Once someone has publicly taken a position and staked their reputation on it, it is nearly impossible for them to back off of their position. Mentally, they will have a hard time even conceiving of such a thing and avoid following evidence that might put pressure on their beliefs. That happens in areas of religion (I talk to atheists all the time who have made big public breaks with faith, yet are obviously being pursued by God), politics (people stick to candidates who are clearly not what they claim to be), social issues (many pro-choice people refuse to think through the issues of biology and personhood), etc. People deceive themselves so that they can continue the activities they believe in.

This issue parallels exactly how we interpret the Holy Scriptures. While we can agree on certain basic things, we come up with different conclusions on other truths relayed in them. Just like with your chosen faith tradition, you have satisfied yourself about this issue with what you have found and that in the end is all that really counts.
Sure. But if you are wrong about God, and you teach others falsehoods, you are more responsible before God as a teacher.

There is coming a day when we will be responsible for every words we have said, written, repeated, etc. I have unknowingly said many false things in my life because I trusted other people to do my thinking for me. Now I mostly make my own errors, but I also strive to be as truthful as possible. That requires a lot of humility, and God still has a long way to go, helping me become the kind of man I need to be.
 
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