Corporate and Individual Election for Salvation

[canadyjd]

No, the verse says we are "chosen" through faith in the truth, not saved through faith in the truth.
From or after the beginning precludes reference to before creation. And in actuality, refers to the beginning of the New Covenant.

No, the “chosen for salvation”, is from the beginning. The “through sanctification....faith...” refers to the method God has ordain to appropriate that salvation, not the “choosing” for salvation.

We can disagree.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

.....
No claim was made that Abraham came to put faith in God before God revealed Himself to Abram. Please do not muddy the water....

You specifically stated God did not chose Abraham for unknown reasons, but God had found him to be a “man of faith”.

That is clearly untrue, according to scripture. There is no evidence of the true worship of God in his family prior to God revealing Himself.

God chose Abraham, not because he was a “man of faith”, as you stated, but to further His plan for the redemption of His chosen or elect people.

That does not diminish that Abraham responded to this special revelation with faith, but it certainly demonstrates God did not chose Abraham because there was anything special about him, but by grace, mercy and to further His plan the of redemption.

peace to you

 

[MB]

First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.

Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.

As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”

Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.

Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.

Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.

And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.

In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 being our individually set apart in Christ is our individual election to salvation.

It is false to claim election for Gentiles in either circumstance of individual or corporate. Gentiles are never announced by God to be elect to anything. This would be the only way you could claim such a thing. You will never replace God's chosen people.
MB

 

[canadyjd]

And again, note no answer for how we could be chosen individually and still not be a people chosen for God's own possession.

I’m not sure I’m understanding your distinction. We are individually elected for salvation. Jesus said He calls His sheep by name. A specific call.

We are called upon by God to be a corporate people, binding ourselves to one another, by the Spirit, in service to God and the cause of Christ in the world as a Holy Priesthood.

I do not believe scripture teaches “election” is a general call and all who respond with faith become the elect of God.

peace to you

 

[MB]

I’m not sure I’m understanding your distinction. We are individually elected for salvation. Jesus said He calls His sheep by name. A specific call.



We are called upon by God to be a corporate people, binding ourselves to one another, by the Spirit, in service to God and the cause of Christ in the world as a Holy Priesthood.

I do not believe scripture teaches “election” is a general call and all who respond with faith become the elect of God.


peace to you

How is it that you were a sheep before you were saved.?
Unless you are a Jew you are not elect. The sheep follow Christ so unless you were following Christ before you were saved then you are not a sheep. Both the sheep and the elect are Jews only.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

The condemnation is removed at the time of salvation. Just because God has elected someone to salvation in time, and that election to salvation is certain, doesn’t mean the condemnation is removed until the time of salvation.

Suppose I play a pickup game of basketball with Labron James. I am condemned to lose. The outcome is certain, but he doesn’t win until the time comes.

peace to you

Just because you put " condemned" in front of lose doesnt make it an equal analogy.

 

[Iconoclast]

Van,
The question is this bible study? or an episode from the sci-fi channel?

First let's define “corporate” election as God making a choice

There is no corporate election , so in reality, this is making it up as we go.

to deal with a group of people

To deal with a group of people??? Who are these people? random strangers? No one in particular?
So God in this scenario has no one in mind?

according to His purpose.

God's purpose is concerning His church,the elect sheep.

Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen,

Whoever wanders into the corporate sphere??? what corporate sphere? is it like the Bermuda triangle? Are their other "corporate" spheres? you say the corporate sphere of His Choice?

and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect.

So people wander in, like a hunter setting a trap for a bear, they wander in to the sphere and get caught, then they become chosen?

The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect”

The person causes their own election, God is a spectator???

 

[Van]

No, the “chosen for salvation”, is from the beginning. The “through sanctification....faith...” refers to the method God has ordain to appropriate that salvation, not the “choosing” for salvation.

We can disagree.

peace to you

Yes, you can deny 2 Thessalonians says people are chosen through faith in the truth till the cows come home, does not change scripture or your nullification.

 

[MB]

Van,
The question is this bible study? or an episode from the sci-fi channel?

There is no corporate election , so in reality, this is making it up as we go.



To deal with a group of people??? Who are these people? random strangers? No one in particular?
So God in this scenario has no one in mind?


God's purpose is concerning His church,the elect sheep.


Whoever wanders into the corporate sphere??? what corporate sphere? is it like the Bermuda triangle? Are their other "corporate" spheres? you say the corporate sphere of His Choice?


So people wander in, like a hunter setting a trap for a bear, they wander in to the sphere and get caught, then they become chosen?



The person causes their own election, God is a spectator???

Neither one of you is telling the true story of election. If you're not Jewish you're not elected. End of story
MB

 

[Van]

You specifically stated God did not chose Abraham for unknown reasons, but God had found him to be a “man of faith”.

That is clearly untrue, according to scripture. There is no evidence of the true worship of God in his family prior to God revealing Himself.

God chose Abraham, not because he was a “man of faith”, as you stated, but to further His plan for the redemption of His chosen or elect people.

That does not diminish that Abraham responded to this special revelation with faith, but it certainly demonstrates God did not chose Abraham because there was anything special about him, but by grace, mercy and to further His plan the of redemption.

peace to you

And I fully supported that statement from scripture. Once again, now you deny Nehemiah 9:7-8.

Nehemiah 9:7-8

You are the LORD, the God who chose Abram, who brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham 8. You found his heart faithful before You, and made a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites and Hittites, of the Amorites and Perizzites, of the Jebusites and Girgashites—to give it to his descendants. You have kept Your promise, because You are righteous.…​

 

[Van]

It is false to claim election for Gentiles in either circumstance of individual or corporate. Gentiles are never announced by God to be elect to anything. This would be the only way you could claim such a thing. You will never replace God's chosen people.
MB

I have addressed this utterly false claim over and over MB. Please do not attempt to derail this thread with unbiblical claims.

 

[Van]

I’m not sure I’m understanding your distinction. We are individually elected for salvation. Jesus said He calls His sheep by name. A specific call.

We are called upon by God to be a corporate people, binding ourselves to one another, by the Spirit, in service to God and the cause of Christ in the world as a Holy Priesthood.

I do not believe scripture teaches “election” is a general call and all who respond with faith become the elect of God.

peace to you

All you need to do is read the OP, it is crystal.
Did I say "election is a general call?" Nope, you are trying it seems to muddy the water with stuff not at issue.
Certainly all who respond to the call of the gospel are not individually elected, as taught by Matthew 13. Again, an item not at issue.

You have not said how individuals could be chosen to be God's people, before creation when we lived as not a people of God.

Ephesians 1:4 must refer to our corporate election according to 1 Peter 2:9-10. It is a lock.

 

[MB]

I have addressed this utterly false claim over and over MB. Please do not attempt to derail this thread with unbiblical claims.

It is not unBiblical. What is not biblical is what you present.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Van,
The question is this bible study? or an episode from the sci-fi channel?

First let's define “corporate” election as God making a choice

There is no corporate election , so in reality, this is making it up as we go.

to deal with a group of people

To deal with a group of people??? Who are these people? random strangers? No one in particular?
So God in this scenario has no one in mind?

according to His purpose.

God's purpose is concerning His church,the elect sheep.

Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen,

Whoever wanders into the corporate sphere???what corporate sphere? is it like the Bermuda triangle?

and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. [/QUOTE]

so once again the false teaching that man elects himself.God sits as a spectator until man enters a mystical sphere

 

[Tsalagi]

In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 being our individually set apart in Christ is our individual election to salvation.

Is Israel elect or not? See Deuteronomy 7:6-8, 14:2, 26:17-19. Where does Scripture say that Old Testament believers are "in Christ"? Clearly New Testament saints are in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) but your summary does not seem to account for God's choosing of pre-Christian believers such as those found in Hebrews 11.

 

[Iconoclast]

Neither one of you is telling the true story of election. If you're not Jewish you're not elected. End of story
MB

You have no idea what you are talking about. Many have answered you but you insist on posting error. I will not really answer you until you want answers.
You deny most of the heart of biblical soteriology.

 

[canadyjd]

Just because you put " condemned" in front of lose doesnt make it an equal analogy.

All analogies fall short, ultimately.

The point is that God can elect a person to salvation before the foundation of the world, that election to salvation is certain, and that person is still under condemnation until their salvation is appropriated in time.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

It is false to claim election for Gentiles in either circumstance of individual or corporate. Gentiles are never announced by God to be elect to anything. This would be the only way you could claim such a thing. You will never replace God's chosen people.
MB

And so we disagree.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, you can deny 2 Thessalonians says people are chosen through faith in the truth till the cows come home, does not change scripture or your nullification.

A plain reading of the text seems clear to me. The “choosing” stands with “from the beginning”. The “through the sanctification of Holy Spirit....faith” does not refer to the choosing but rather the appropriation of salvation.

And so we disagree.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

......
You have not said how individuals could be chosen to be God's people, before creation when we lived as not a people of God......

I understand the question, I think. You are asking how can God chose us individually to be an elect people of God, prior to creation, when scripture says there was a time when we were not a people of God? Is that your question?

The answer is this: The “choosing” is from God’s perspective, not ours. God exists outside of what we understand as chronological time. He sees everything at once, the end, the beginning and everything that happens between.

So, when God elects someone to salvation and puts that person among His people to worship Him forever in heaven, it is certain to happen (from our perspective) in time because it has already happened from Gods perspective; He has ordained it and made it a certain reality and has seen it happen.

It can happen in no other manner than what God has ordained.

peace to you