Corporate Election

[Van]

The choice to save believers is a corporate election before any individual believer had been chosen. The claim a corporate election "entails the choice of individuals" is false. Say I am driving to the store and I choose to buy grapes. Have I chosen individual grapes? No, of course not. Only when I subsequently pick a package of grapes, were the individual grapes chosen. Same thing with salvation. God chose to redeem believers, but did not pick any individuals. Why, because we existed as not a people chosen by God, before we were chosen as a people for God's possession. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

 

[agedman]

The choice to save believers is a corporate election before any individual believer had been chosen. The claim a corporate election "entails the choice of individuals" is false. Say I am driving to the store and I choose to buy grapes. Have I chosen individual grapes? No, of course not. Only when I subsequently pick a package of grapes, were the individual grapes chosen. Same thing with salvation. God chose to redeem believers, but did not pick any individuals. Why, because we existed as not a people chosen by God, before we were chosen as a people for God's possession. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

corporate election illustration failure alert!


What if the store has no grapes, or they have decayed into that which is worthless?

“…and such were some of you, but God…”

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvinists simply false charges, followed by false claims.

Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election not an individual election. Why? Because 1 Peter 2:9-10 says those saved existed as not a people. Therefore they could not have been chosen individually before creation, because if they had been, then they would have never existed as not a people.

That literally makes no sense.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

I'd like very much to see your proof you are in fact elect.. It seems you make this claim in ignorance. By the way it is you who are in error because you can't prove you are elect You have no such proof and never will. Want to know why? Because you have no scripture that says any Gentile is elect.
MB

MB, over the years that I have dealt with you I have made repeated statements from the Bible which underscore the doctrine of election. Within the last week was the most recent time that I offered biblical passages that affirm that very doctrine. But you have, with contempt swept aside the Word of God and have chosen to keep your philosophy instead.

To be elect is to be a believer. If one is a child of God --a Christian, one is elect of God. Do you deny the truthfulness of the following verse in 2 Peter 1:10?

Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.

In 1 Peter 1:1,2 Peter Says of his intended readers To God's elect who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

His readership consisted of both Jews and Gentiles. The elect are, as I had quoted many times for you scattered throughout the world -- from among every tribe, language, people and nation. All of the elect of God are his church. Christ gave himself up for the church.

 

[AustinC]

The choice to save believers is a corporate election before any individual believer had been chosen. The claim a corporate election "entails the choice of individuals" is false. Say I am driving to the store and I choose to buy grapes. Have I chosen individual grapes? No, of course not. Only when I subsequently pick a package of grapes, were the individual grapes chosen. Same thing with salvation. God chose to redeem believers, but did not pick any individuals. Why, because we existed as not a people chosen by God, before we were chosen as a people for God's possession. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

You wrote:
God chose to redeem believers, but did not pick any individuals. Why, because we existed as not a people chosen by God, before we were chosen as a people for God's possession. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Here is 1 Peter 2:9-10. It does not say what you say.

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This passage doesn't say that we once were not chosen. It says were once not a people. This means we were once not under the covenant in the Kingdom.
We have been individually been chosen from before the foundation of the world. We came under the covenant as a corporate people later.
Van, you have added to these verses what is not stated in these verses.

 

[MB]

Considering it says we were chosen before the foundation of the world, are you saying we are in him before we are even born? Therefore also being in him before we are even saved?

No I'm saying that we already believe when we are chosen for Salvation.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse clearly explains the method of our being chosen We believe that we might be saved. Calvinist claim that we we save our selves not true this tells the truth of it. It Shows that it's up to God to save the man.
MB

 

[MB]

MB, over the years that I have dealt with you I have made repeated statements from the Bible which underscore the doctrine of election. Within the last week was the most recent time that I offered biblical passages that affirm that very doctrine. But you have, with contempt swept aside the Word of God and have chosen to keep your philosophy instead.

To be elect is to be a believer. If one is a child of God --a Christian, one is elect of God. Do you deny the truthfulness of the following verse in 2 Peter 1:10?

Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.

In 1 Peter 1:1,2 Peter Says of his intended readers To God's elect who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit.


His readership consisted of both Jews and Gentiles. The elect are, as I had quoted many times for you scattered throughout the world -- from among every tribe, language, people and nation. All of the elect of God are his church. Christ gave himself up for the church.

That doesn't mean what he said was meant for the Gentiles'

All of your statements are partial scripture mixed with your Gnostic beliefs, You should read your own nonsense. Peter is speaking to the Jews He was an apostle to the Jews. The whole Bible was writen to the Jews. Very little of it addresses Gentiles.
MB

 

[RipponRedeaux]

That doesn't mean what he said was meant for the Gentiles'

All of your statements are partial scripture mixed with your Gnostic beliefs, You should read your own nonsense. Peter is speaking to the Jews He was an apostle to the Jews. The whole Bible was written to the Jews. Very little of it addresses Gentiles.

If you, MB, are not Jewish, you are a Gentile. The Bible was written for Jews and everyone else. Otherwise why do you read and profess to believe it if it does not apply to you?

You need to do some homework MB. Look at Bible study aids such as Bible commentaries. In many translations there are introductions to the books of the Bible. They spell out that First and Second Peter was addressing both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[MB]

If you, MB, are not Jewish, you are a Gentile. The Bible was written for Jews and everyone else. Otherwise why do you read and profess to believe it if it does not apply to you?

You misunderstand what I said. We are not elect scripture never says Gentiles are elect. God never chose us as elect we are chosen for Salvation after we believe.This is completely different. When you claim to be elect you are claiming to be a Jew. There is a reason the Jews are elect and election does not mean you will be saved. There are millions of Jews who are elect and it does not mean they will be saved

I

You need to do some homework MB. Look at Bible study aids such as Bible commentaries. In many translations there are introductions to the books of the Bible. They spell out that First and Second Peter was addressing both Jews and Gentiles.

I use the Bible I do not rely on the writings of men to understand scripture. The Bible is my guide not some preacher.. The only thing that is needed to understand the Bible is the Bible . What Bible studies do is tell you what to believe and most of the time they do not support scripture. . I have heard the Bible preached for the last 60 years. I've heard the preached sermons which are not always absolute truth. Preachers are only men I feel when people go to out side of scripture to books, it because they do not understand the Bible.When God Him Self will give man all that he needs to understand it. The Holy Spirit is my teacher. Being saved means you understand. So why do you need someone to explain it to you.
MB

 

[AustinC]

No I'm saying that we already believe when we are chosen for Salvation.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse clearly explains the method of our being chosen We believe that we might be saved. Calvinist claim that we we save our selves not true this tells the truth of it. It Shows that it's up to God to save the man.
MB

I highlighted in red your false assertion. What you claim is simply not true. It may be your thinking, but it is not objectively true.
Second, the verse you quote does not speak about being chosen at all. I wonder, when there are dozens of verses that actually us the word "chosen," why you picked this verse, which is on justification by faith. It would fit better in connecting this verse to Paul's argument of justification by faith alone in Romans 1-11.

Galatians 2:15-18 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

 

[MB]

I highlighted in red your false assertion. What you claim is simply not true. It may be your thinking, but it is not objectively true.
Second, the verse you quote does not speak about being chosen at all. I wonder, when there are dozens of verses that actually us the word "chosen," why you picked this verse, which is on justification by faith. It would fit better in connecting this verse to Paul's argument of justification by faith alone in Romans 1-11.

Galatians 2:15-18 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

Read it again. Calvinist accuse freewillers of saving them selves and you accusations are as false as any JW is.
MB

 

[MB]

Why can't you just give the explanation instead of rambling on and on?

Why don't you answer questions instead of making assumptions.
MB

 

[AustinC]

You misunderstand what I said. We are not elect scripture never says Gentiles are elect. God never chose us as elect we are chosen for Salvation after we believe.This is completely different. When you claim to be elect you are claiming to be a Jew. There is a reason the Jews are elect and election does not mean you will be saved.
MB

MB, is election only into the Mosaic Covenant? You seem to imagine so.
Is no one elect to the New Covenant?

My bigger concern, however, is this assertion that you make:

God never chose us as elect we are chosen for Salvation after we believe.

I wonder if you see the incongruity in your statement. Do you see the significant problem in your assertion?
If not, let me point it out.
You state that humans must first believe and exhibit faith...before God can choose them. Do you really think the Bible teaches that? Moreso, do you not see that you place humans as the Cause agents and God as the one who is effected by the cause so that He then chooses after being effected by the Cause agent?

I am afraid you simply have a huge blind spot that no one but God himself can remove. Your rejection of God's elective work in establishing the New Covenant with people of all nations, tribes and tongues by His ordination is one that only God can change in your mind. I look forward to God graciously showing you His elective work in everyone whom God wills to redeem.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

You misunderstand what I said. We are not elect scripture never says Gentiles are elect. God never chose us as elect we are chosen for Salvation after we believe. This is completely different. When you claim to be elect you are claiming to be a Jew. There is a reason the Jews are elect and election does not mean you will be saved. There are millions of Jews who are elect and it does not mean they will be saved

No matter how many times and in painstaking detail you are presented with Scripture, you refuse to believe it.
The elect are both Jewish and Gentile. You, most likely are Gentile. If you are a believer in Christ you are an elect child of God. No Jew or Gentile who has not become born again is elect.

 

[MB]

No matter how many times and in painstaking detail you are presented with Scripture, you refuse to believe it.
The elect are both Jewish and Gentile. You, most likely are Gentile. If you are a believer in Christ you are an elect child of God. No Jew or Gentile who has not become born again is elect.

You have never shown scripture that actually says Gentiles are elect. It's always your assumption You think because they all mention the word elect it applies to you it doesn;t it applies to the Jews
MB

 

[RipponRedeaux]

I use the Bible I do not rely on the writings of men to understand scripture. The Bible is my guide not some preacher.. The only thing that is needed to understand the Bible is the Bible . What Bible studies do is tell you what to believe and most of the time they do not support scripture. . I have heard the Bible preached for the last 60 years. I've heard the preached sermons which are not always absolute truth. Preachers are only men I feel when people go to out side of scripture to books, it because they do not understand the Bible. When God Him Self will give man all that he needs to understand it. The Holy Spirit is my teacher. Being saved means you understand. So why do you need someone to explain it to you.

You are in dire need of spiritual mentors. You cannot go it alone MB. To refuse help from men of God that the Lord has raised up to edify the Church is foolhardy and quite arrogant. Of course the Bible itself is our God-breathed source. However do not despise the wisdom of godly men of the past and present. Their purpose is to help you grow in the faith. Otherwise you'd be a 70-some year old who is in the baby stage of your Christian development.

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinists simply false charges, followed by false claims.

Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election not an individual election. Why? Because 1 Peter 2:9-10 says those saved existed as not a people. Therefore they could not have been chosen individually before creation, because if they had been, then they would have never existed as not a people.

Did God know who he would save from eternity past or not?

 

[Yeshua1]

You have never shown scripture that actually says Gentiles are elect. It's always your assumption You think because they all mention the word elect it applies to you it doesn;t it applies to the Jews
MB

Applies to all redeemed in Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinists simply false charges, followed by false claims.

Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election not an individual election. Why? Because 1 Peter 2:9-10 says those saved existed as not a people. Therefore they could not have been chosen individually before creation, because if they had been, then they would have never existed as not a people.

Did Jesus die in the place/stead of his own, or for the plan?

 

[Yeshua1]

The choice to save believers is a corporate election before any individual believer had been chosen. The claim a corporate election "entails the choice of individuals" is false. Say I am driving to the store and I choose to buy grapes. Have I chosen individual grapes? No, of course not. Only when I subsequently pick a package of grapes, were the individual grapes chosen. Same thing with salvation. God chose to redeem believers, but did not pick any individuals. Why, because we existed as not a people chosen by God, before we were chosen as a people for God's possession. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Did Jesus choose his Apostles out first, or did they choose to become part of the Apostles themselves?