Corporate Election

[RipponRedeaux]

You have never shown scripture that actually says Gentiles are elect. It's always your assumption You think because they all mention the word elect it applies to you it doesn;t it applies to the Jews

You have denied Scripture passage after Scripture passage for multiple years here on the BB. I have offered verses that you have dismissed with a wave of your hand.
I have on this very thread and countless times before presented you with 2 Peter 1:10. So apparently you think that believers should not examine themselves make sure their calling and election are sure (as the KJV renders it). You think that verse only applies to Jews. That is a big shame, for you to scissor that out of the Word of God. You are of the belief that most of the Bible doesn't apply to you. That is a disgrace.

It's highly likely that Luke was a Gentile. He was of Greek background. Doctor Luke wrote both this Gospel account and the book of Acts.

Romans was written to Jews and Gentiles. Paul said in Romans 11:13 :
I am talking to you Gentiles, Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why don't you answer questions instead of making assumptions.
MB

Are we saved by choosing Jesus ourselves, or does the Holy Spirit have to enable us to do that act?

 

[Revmitchell]

Disagreeing with one believes a passage says is not denying scripture it is only disagreeing with you

 

[Yeshua1]

You have denied Scripture passage after Scripture passage for multiple years here on the BB. I have offered verses that you have dismissed with a wave of your hand.
I have on this very thread and countless times before presented you with 2 Peter 1:10. So apparently you think that believers should not examine themselves make sure their calling and election are sure (as the KJV renders it). You think that verse only applies to Jews. That is a big shame, for you to scissor that out of the Word of God. You are of the belief that most of the Bible doesn't apply to you. That is a disgrace.

It's highly likely that Luke was a Gentile. He was of Greek background. Doctor Luke wrote both this Gospel account and the book of Acts.

Romans was written to Jews and Gentiles. Paul said in Romans 11:13 :
I am talking to you Gentiles, Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry.

MB almost seems to be seeing 2 different salvation plans in the NT, one for Jews and one for Gentiles? Romans written just to the Jews then, James also?

 

[Reformed1689]

No I'm saying that we already believe when we are chosen for Salvation.

So we believe before the foundation of the world? You aren't making any sense.

 

[Reformed1689]

Why don't you answer questions instead of making assumptions.
MB

I do.

 

[agedman]

There is no corporate election to be found in the Scriptures.

There are those who seem to must have an excuse for the entrenched error of their scheme(s). Rather then conforming their views to the Scripture, they seek to pick a verse and depart from the truth of it.

Christ stated, “I will build my church…”. That is an individual doing the selection of the materials, design, and purpose. No corporate involvement and no shared glory.

The Scriptures state that we believers will stand before God to present an account. Not as a corporate, but as individuals.

The assembly is made up of many individual members each with individual abilities purposed by God to fill specific responsibilities. The purpose and gifts is to specific individuals and the corporate benefits. No corporate election involved.

 

[JonC]

There is no corporate election to be found in the Scriptures.

There are those who seem to must have an excuse for the entrenched error of their scheme(s). Rather then conforming their views to the Scripture, they seek to pick a verse and depart from the truth of it.

Christ stated, “I will build my church…”. That is an individual doing the selection of the materials, design, and purpose. No corporate involvement and no shared glory.

The Scriptures state that we believers will stand before God to present an account. Not as a corporate, but as individuals.

The assembly is made up of many individual members each with individual abilities purposed by God to fill specific responsibilities. The purpose and gifts is to specific individuals and the corporate benefits. No corporate election involved.

There is actually no individual election to salvation in Scripture either. It's always from the standpoint of belonging to "the elect" or dealing with "the elect" (even the "whom" in Romans 8 is not speaking of an individual but of the elect).

 

[agedman]

There is actually no individual election to salvation in Scripture either. It's always from the standpoint of belonging to "the elect" or dealing with "the elect" (even the "whom" in Romans 8 is not speaking of an individual but of the elect).

However, one does see the action of both the OT and NT in specific individual selection particularly to redeemed service.

One does not see a list made of OT redeemed groups, but outstanding OT saints.

One does not see the NT selection of groups, but individuals carry the message to individuals who comprise the group.

Even in the Revelation were perhaps the closest to a corporate elected group may be found, is still individuals individually selected and the number specified.

Therefore, by example, there is shown individual election to a group, and each individual signed a specific purpose for the group, but there is not shown corporate election for redemption.

 

[JonC]

However, one does see the action of both the OT and NT in specific individual selection particularly to redeemed service.

One does not see a list made of OT redeemed groups, but outstanding OT saints.

One does not see the NT selection of groups, but individuals carry the message to individuals who comprise the group.

Even in the Revelation were perhaps the closest to a corporate elected group may be found, is still individuals individually selected and the number specified.

Therefore, by example, there is shown individual election to a group, and each individual signed a specific purpose for the group, but there is not shown corporate election for redemption.

I'm not claiming it proves corporate election. I'm saying individual election to salvation is no more supported in the Scriptures.

And we have to remember corporate election includes individual election (and vice versa).

With corporate election men are individually elect based on their position "in Christ".

With individual election men are a part of the corporate elect based on being chosen for that group.

 

[Van]

Actually, according to Dan Wallace both corporate and individual elections by God are found in scripture. Some post neither are found in scripture, and to waste effort on their idiocy is not very wise stewardship.

A promise to the seed of Abraham is a corporate election. Choosing through faith in the truth is an individual election.

Existing as not a people chosen for God's own possession requires being chosen as God's own possession during the physical lifetime of individuals. Again, some claim that is not so. No need to engage with that level of denial...

 

[Revmitchell]

We need to be careful. Election is not always to salvation sometimes it’s to service.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, according to Dan Wallace both corporate and individual elections by God are found in scripture. Some post neither are found in scripture, and to waste effort on their idiocy is not very wise stewardship.

A promise to the seed of Abraham is a corporate election. Choosing through faith in the truth is an individual election.

Existing as not a people chosen for God's own possession requires being chosen as God's own possession during the physical lifetime of individuals. Again, some claim that is not so. No need to engage with that level of denial...

Corporate election for israel , while Individual for us saved now under the new!

 

[RipponRedeaux]

We need to be careful. Election is not always to salvation sometimes it’s to service.

Please provide scriptural support for your assertion.

 

[AustinC]

Corporate election for israel , while Individual for us saved now under the new!

I think we need to step back.
Election, regarding redemption, has always been individual. Those within the ancestral heritage of Israel were only elect for redemption individually. However, as a Covenant people by which the Promised One would come they fell under the covenant requirements.
For the church, there is something similar. Our children may not be elect to salvation, but in our house they are set apart by the New Covenant relationship their parents have in the corporate church. This is why Paul tells us this truth in 1 Corinthians 7:14.

For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

There is a corporate covenant that covers those in our family who are not yet redeemed, as long as they remain in our fellowship. This is different from salvation. We need to separate that thought. Being a part of a covenant people does not mean each individual is a part of those who are elected by God unto salvation.

 

[agedman]

I think we need to step back.
Election, regarding redemption, has always been individual. Those within the ancestral heritage of Israel were only elect for redemption individually. However, as a Covenant people by which the Promised One would come they fell under the covenant requirements.
For the church, there is something similar. Our children may not be elect to salvation, but in our house they are set apart by the New Covenant relationship their parents have in the corporate church. This is why Paul tells us this truth in 1 Corinthians 7:14.

For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

There is a corporate covenant that covers those in our family who are not yet redeemed, as long as they remain in our fellowship. This is different from salvation. We need to separate that thought. Being a part of a covenant people does not mean each individual is a part of those who are elected by God unto salvation.

Do you view the covenants as election or as fulfillment of a promise?

I am not yet convinced keeping a promise to one elected makes those of the progeny also elected. For example, while feeling sorry for himself in a cave, did not God say He had reserved 7000 to Himself? A sub group of the whole was elected (without it stating it as such) as He has demonstrated even in the modern church were there are both wheat and weeds.

About the verse you posted:
No doubt a Godly husband or wife has influence in the home that the ungodly do not. How much of that is salvation related or as Paul said a couple statements later it is for peace, I’m not certain.

What is your thinking on the effects expected from the verse? Is the sanctification (holy) home considered elect, or a place of peace where Godly love can be demonstrated?

 

[AustinC]

Do you view the covenants as election or as fulfillment of a promise?

I am not yet convinced keeping a promise to one elected makes those of the progeny also elected. For example, while feeling sorry for himself in a cave, did not God say He had reserved 7000 to Himself? A sub group of the whole was elected (without it stating it as such) as He has demonstrated even in the modern church were there are both wheat and weeds.

About the verse you posted:
No doubt a Godly husband or wife has influence in the home that the ungodly do not. How much of that is salvation related or as Paul said a couple statements later it is for peace, I’m not certain.

What is your thinking on the effects expected from the verse? Is the sanctification (holy) home considered elect, or a place of peace where Godly love can be demonstrated?

I am working through this.
Clearly everyone born into the nation of Israel was born into the Mosaic Covenant God made with them. It was not a Covenant of salvation, but it was a Covenant of corporate union in working to obey God.

It seems that Paul and the writer to the Hebrews makes a similar connection of corporate union in the Church. The writer to the Hebrews warns his readers not to drift away, back into a lesser covenant. It implies that non-believers can live within the Covenant of believers and receive benefits from fellowship in this covenant.

I must admit that my background in dispensationalism caused me to be late to the party regarding the full understanding of covenant relationship. I do not have covenants etched in stone by any means. I am working through scripture and connecting dots. I fully admit that I may not be connecting all the dots in sequential order. I will not stand dogmatically on that which I am still working out.

 

[agedman]

I am working through this.
Clearly everyone born into the nation of Israel was born into the Mosaic Covenant God made with them. It was not a Covenant of salvation, but it was a Covenant of corporate union in working to obey God.

It seems that Paul and the writer to the Hebrews makes a similar connection of corporate union in the Church. The writer to the Hebrews warns his readers not to drift away, back into a lesser covenant. It implies that non-believers can live within the Covenant of believers and receive benefits from fellowship in this covenant.

I must admit that my background in dispensationalism caused me to be late to the party regarding the full understanding of covenant relationship. I do not have covenants etched in stone by any means. I am working through scripture and connecting dots. I fully admit that I may not be connecting all the dots in sequential order. I will not stand dogmatically on that which I am still working out.

There is nothing prohibitive in blending the two systems of organizing the Scriptures.

Being familiar with both and using both is a productive an exercise in which you may be able to use to good use.

For example, in my readings of Edwards (again relying of failing memory) he used both, though not in direct terms.

I compliment you on your pursuit, for it is merit worthy.

Some writers use three, others five, others have more.

Not all the reformed agree on the covenants, and intend to rest with those promises explicitly laid out by God. That given to a The Serpent, Adam and Eve, the one to Noah, the one to Abraham, the one to David, the one Given by the Christ.

Coincidentally, the dispensations whether one discerns by economy, history, or conditions of living, follow a similar division.

But you know all this, and much I write is to reinforce my own memory and not meant to educate the educated.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think we need to step back.
Election, regarding redemption, has always been individual. Those within the ancestral heritage of Israel were only elect for redemption individually. However, as a Covenant people by which the Promised One would come they fell under the covenant requirements.
For the church, there is something similar. Our children may not be elect to salvation, but in our house they are set apart by the New Covenant relationship their parents have in the corporate church. This is why Paul tells us this truth in 1 Corinthians 7:14.

For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

There is a corporate covenant that covers those in our family who are not yet redeemed, as long as they remain in our fellowship. This is different from salvation. We need to separate that thought. Being a part of a covenant people does not mean each individual is a part of those who are elected by God unto salvation.

That reads more akin to Presbatarian then Baptist Calvinism Covenant theology though brother!

 

[JonC]

This is interesting (supportive of corporate election in Scripture):

God chose the people of Israel in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel (Deut 4:37; 7:6-8).9 That is, by choosing Jacob/Israel, the corporate/covenant representative, God also chose his descendants as his covenant people. It is a matter of Old Testament covenant theology. The covenant representative on the one hand and the people/nation of Israel on the other hand are the focus of the divine covenantal election, and individuals are elect only as members of the elect people. Moreover, in principle, foreign individuals who were not originally members of the elect people could join the chosen people and become part of the elect, demonstrating again that the locus of election was the covenant community and that individuals found their election through membership in the elect people.

(From the op article)