Covenant Theology

[TCGreek]

Or to put it in laymen's terms, since the Bible makes mention of a few covenants, covenant theology (as taught by those who consider the WCF to be authoritative) is the correct method of scripture interpretation.

I've never read the WCF. My covenant theology is from the Bible itself. That's my authority.

 

[TCGreek]

Do you see that between new Covenant theology and progressive Dispy, that both camps seem to be trying to mediate a middle position here though?

What is that middle position?

 

[Yeshua1]

What is that middle position?

They both see both jews/gentiles saved same way, by the Grace of the new Covenant, and they still do disagree on the truth of national isreal still having a aprt in the plan of God coming future, but many in both seem to also be heading to hisoptical pre mil position! the rapture seeming to be under attack in progressive Dispy...

 

[Yeshua1]

Does anyone disagree that God before creation had chosen a Redeemer, and therefore both anticipated the Fall necessitating the Redeemer, and those the Redeemer would redeem? Could these revelations be considered the theological covenant of redemption?

Would instead say that Election from /by God the concept involved here, and that God had ordianed that there would be a redeemer to come for His people...

Debate would be IF God either ordained the fall, or ordained the Cross as knowing the fall would happen!

 

[Van]

Thanks Thomas15, for discussing the topic. How refreshing!!

Jesus is spoken of as the "Chosen One." So when do you say He was chosen? See for example Luke 9:35, 23:35, and 1 Peter 2:6. Jesus was chosen before He was born, at least in that several prophecies written before the Word became flesh, said He was choice and precious in the eyes of God.

I do not think to say that the Second Person of the Trinity was chosen to become the Lamb of God calls into question His divinity? Note that many translations put those words in "Caps" to make clear the Chosen One is the Second Person of the Trinity.

But I do not disagree with questioning what we should call God's plan of Redemption. In Acts 2:23 we see that Christ was delivered up by a "predetermined plan." I think it is logical to think since Jesus was known as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:19-20), He was chosen for that task before the foundation of the world. Where did I go wrong?

 

[Van]

"Covenant Theology uses the covenant concept as an organizing principle for Christian theology and views the history of redemption under the framework of three overarching theological covenants: the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace. These three are called "theological covenants" because although not explicitly presented as covenants, they are, according to covenant theologians, implicit in the Bible."

Covenant Theology teaches that God has established one theological covenant within the Godhead and then has used two theological covenants with mankind to implement the overarching purpose and plan of the first covenant.

The first covenant, usually called the Covenant of Redemption, is the agreement within the Godhead that the Father would appoint his Son Jesus to give up his life for mankind and that Jesus would do so (cf. Titus 1:1-3).​

The above statement from the internet has been edited and paraphrased to improve clarity.

An interesting question arises from Paul's use of "before times eternal" in Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9. If Paul did not intend to refer to the times before the ages, i.e. eternity before creation, why did he not say "from the beginning?" At best one could claim Paul was referring to the time before both the New Covenant and the Old Mosaic Covenant, i.e. back to the promises to Abraham, but is that valid?

Still waiting for someone to address the question.

 

[TCGreek]

They both see both jews/gentiles saved same way, by the Grace of the new Covenant, and they still do disagree on the truth of national isreal still having a aprt in the plan of God coming future, but many in both seem to also be heading to hisoptical pre mil position! the rapture seeming to be under attack in progressive Dispy...

Yes, but a difference regarding Israel, the Millennium, and the Rapture.

 

[Van]

Hi Yeshua1, yes we can agree when the Father chose the Son, making Him the Chosen One, that was His "election." Thanks for sharing.

Next we can agree God predestined that the Chosen One would become flesh and die on the Christ, having been delivered up by predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God. Thanks for sharing

Mr. Pink says God did not predestine the Fall, but God arranged it, i.e. put the tree in the garden, allowed Satan to interact with Eve, and so forth. You cannot, with integrity claim Christ was chosen before creation to be the Lamb, without accepting God's plan anticipated the Fall.

And yes, God predestined the cross, according to His predetermined plan.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks Thomas15, for discussing the topic. How refreshing!!

Jesus is spoken of as the "Chosen One." So when do you say He was chosen? See for example Luke 9:35, 23:35, and 1 Peter 2:6. Jesus was chosen before He was born, at least in that several prophecies written before the Word became flesh, said He was choice and precious in the eyes of God.

I do not think to say that the Second Person of the Trinity was chosen to become the Lamb of God calls into question His divinity? Note that many translations put those words in "Caps" to make clear the Chosen One is the Second Person of the Trinity.

But I do not disagree with questioning what we should call God's plan of Redemption. In Acts 2:23 we see that Christ was delivered up by a "predetermined plan." I think it is logical to think since Jesus was known as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:19-20), He was chosen for that task before the foundation of the world. Where did I go wrong?

The plan to redeem man via the Cross of christ was eternal plan of the father, so Jesus was NOT chosen in the sense that God picked him for that role, as he always had that Role...

it was NOT jesus picked as messiah, nor the plan that was chosen, but individual sinners were chosen and delecte dout beforehand by the father to receive jesus thru the Holy Sprit and possess eternal life in Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, but a difference regarding Israel, the Millennium, and the Rapture.

Aren't there some pre mils in new covenat theology? I am referring to Historical view....

 

[TCGreek]

Aren't there some pre mils in new covenat theology? I am referring to Historical view....

Ah, yes. I believe Spurgeon was such.

 

[thomas15]

.. I think it is logical to think since Jesus was known as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:19-20), He was chosen for that task before the foundation of the world. Where did I go wrong?

There is a difference between what seems logical and what is actually taught in The Bible. The Bible does not speak of a Covenant of Redemption between the Father and the Son. Therefore, as much as we might like it to be so, we have no authority to make the claim.

 

[thomas15]

I've never read the WCF. My covenant theology is from the Bible itself. That's my authority.

You get the covenants of grace, works and redemption from your Bible?

 

[Van]

There is a difference between what seems logical and what is actually taught in The Bible. The Bible does not speak of a Covenant of Redemption between the Father and the Son. Therefore, as much as we might like it to be so, we have no authority to make the claim.

I am not making a claim about a "covenant" - I am making a claim that the Word was chosen as the Redeemer before creation, and therefore God's plan of Redemption was formulated before creation.

 

[Van]

The plan to redeem man via the Cross of christ was eternal plan of the father, so Jesus was NOT chosen in the sense that God picked him for that role, as he always had that Role...

it was NOT jesus picked as messiah, nor the plan that was chosen, but individual sinners were chosen and delecte dout beforehand by the father to receive jesus thru the Holy Sprit and possess eternal life in Christ!

Yeshua1 denies Christ is the Chosen One. Go figure. Calvinism denies every verse that demonstrates Calvinism is bogus. Lets add them to the list.

 

[Van]

"Covenant Theology uses the covenant concept as an organizing principle for Christian theology and views the history of redemption under the framework of three overarching theological covenants: the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace. These three are called "theological covenants" because although not explicitly presented as covenants, they are, according to covenant theologians, implicit in the Bible."

Covenant Theology teaches that God has established one theological covenant within the Godhead and then has used two theological covenants with mankind to implement the overarching purpose and plan of the first covenant.

The first covenant, usually called the Covenant of Redemption, is the agreement within the Godhead that the Father would appoint his Son Jesus to give up his life for mankind and that Jesus would do so (cf. Titus 1:1-3).​

The above statement from the internet has been edited and paraphrased to improve clarity.

An interesting question arises from Paul's use of "before times eternal" in Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9. If Paul did not intend to refer to the times before the ages, i.e. eternity before creation, why did he not say "from the beginning?" At best one could claim Paul was referring to the time before both the New Covenant and the Old Mosaic Covenant, i.e. back to the promises to Abraham, but is that valid?

Still waiting for an answer rather than an evasion.

 

[TCGreek]

You get the covenants of grace, works and redemption from your Bible?

Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, did you get it from your Bible?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1 denies Christ is the Chosen One. Go figure. Calvinism denies every verse that demonstrates Calvinism is bogus. Lets add them to the list.

Jesus is the Christ, Annoited One of God, Son of God....

the father had determined before the fall even happened that he would come to die as an atonement for Sin, but there was no "Covenant" between father and Son, for the Cross was always to be the way to save sinners!

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, did you get it from your Bible?

yes, for it is implicitly taught in it!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1 denies Christ is the Chosen One. Go figure. Calvinism denies every verse that demonstrates Calvinism is bogus. Lets add them to the list.

No, accept that Jesus was chosen by the father to be the messiah, but he also agreed to do it... Just saying that it was jesus and the Cross ordained, not the plan that was elected, and sinners are chosen on an individual basis for salvation too!