Cultural Engagement: Every Christian's Obligation

[JonC]

Let me clarify a bit.

We can agree scripturally that there is in scripture teaching about a wicked world system that is in direct opposition to God and His people.
We should not compromise in order to fit into that system. We tell people we are in the world, but not of it.
Amish people in extreme fashion in trying to separate from the world and "worldly" things, behave in odd ways and are guilty of world flight
No cars, no electricity, dress odd, avoid interaction with outsiders.etc. In short they live in a bubble.

Some in fundamentalist circles are doing the same
thing Because sin is present many Christians absent themselves from contact with sinners.
Jesus sought them out, eat with them, and interacted.

If we never venture outside of our Christian bubble..[what bubble?] Christian Church, Christian Home,Christian School, Christian bible study with other christians, Christian hospitality, Christian base groups, Christian friends, Christian softball league,Christian fishing and camping trips,etc when do we engage the lost in the world?

I heard a tragic thing.A person was attending
church. They had an unsaved spouse, but were hoping that by reaching out to other couples they might get their children around young people who were in the church.and also perhaps help with the unsaved spouse to be drawn into interaction with the believers.
They were told by one of the first couples that the husband in the Christian family did not want his children to play with their children because there was an unsaved spouse.....
That is one example of "world flight"

While we agree on some aspects such as gospel and Kingdom representation, I do not think we are to be absent here, and by default be subject to the ungodly at every turn.

Joseph in Gods providence was raised up to political office in Egypt, by Gods design.He did not decline.

I am not advocating compromise of principle, but taking a stand and occupying for God, until He comes.

Thank you. I was not familiar with the term "world flight".

I think that we are to interact with the World (engagement) but that we are at the same time to be separated from the World (called out).

For me this engagement means standing for Godly principles, sharing the gospel of Christ, and working with my fellow believers. To share the gospel we interact with people. We have to interact to love them.

For me, being "called out", "separated from" the World means fidelity to the Kingdom of God, towards which the World is hostile. It means not participating in the systems (powers and principles) of the World as best I can.

I am often tempted to jump in (especially with politics) but have to ask myself "to what end?". It is tempting to preach to the World their sins, to try to make the World right, but I have to remember we are not to judge the World as it has already been judged. We can do nothing to make the World right (that is what the World tries to do) as it is condemned already.

So I try to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God to those who will listen. Rather than trying to save the World, to make the World right, I have to remember my purpose is to increase His Kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Strannik,

i'm sorry, but Christians in politics, this is a deceptive, heretical utopia imposed by Satan. He also suggested that Christ go into politics:

Everyone reads psalm 22 about Jesus being Crucified.
but afterward, we read this;

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

1) When he openly suggested that Christ would worship Satan and "receive ""power" over the earthly kingdoms and states.

Satan as the opposer tried to prevent Jesus from going to the cross. Jesus corrected Him and now has been given ALL POWER...MT.28

2) When, through simple, carnal people, he wanted to make Christ an ordinary politician, a king in Israel. Jesus is all of that said flatly and directly:
"My kingdom is not of this world."

Jesus Kingdom authority was from Heaven, it did not have an earthly origin. But in Mt.28 He declares;
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

³⁶ Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. ³⁷ Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.John 18:36-37

Now after the cross it is;
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,
[QUOTE]I think that we are to interact with the World (engagement) but that we are at the same time to be separated from the World (called out). [/QUOTE]

I agree in principle, but think to refine this as much as possible

For me this engagement means standing for Godly principles, sharing the gospel of Christ, and working with my fellow believers. To share the gospel we interact with people. We have to interact to love them.

Agreed, I do not think this can really be questioned.

For me, being "called out", "separated from" the World means fidelity to the Kingdom of God, towards which the World is hostile.

Agreed, we are called out, but I have been examining what we are called to! The world is indeed hostile we can never forget this.

It means not participating in the systems (powers and principles) of the World as best I can.

I am often tempted to jump in (especially with politics) but have to ask myself "to what end?". It is tempting to preach to the World their sins, to try to make the World right, but I have to remember we are not to judge the World as it has already been judged. We can do nothing to make the World right (that is what the World tries to do) as it is condemned already.

Here we differ. We do not just judge or inform the world of their sins, in an effort to get them to clean up a little bit, sort of self-help and a little cleansing the outward conduct.No...outward reformation does not get it done.
Years back I tried to get a few threads going on a small book called Greening of the Church, by Findley Edge; he said this;
greening of the church pt5

So..... then he says the church has been looking to the wrong people{clergy} in the wrong place{church} to accomplish His Mission in the world.
God's mission in the world is redemptive in nature...so he makes the point that we are not {only} called to salvation as wonderful as that is.
But we are called to Mission as believer priests to intercede for the world and bring saving truth to them.
I am currently going through Deuteronomy ,and the other parables to look for clear words from God on what it means to count the cost,in this way of bearing fruit, with a view to better use my time to do what God has called for.
Old copies of this book were available on the used book site called Alibris if it interests anyone

Search Books - Alibris
....I might not agree with all of Mr. Edges' theology or ideas, but there was substantial agreement on most of what I have read in there so far.

So I try to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God to those who will listen.

Agreed

Rather than trying to save the World, to make the World right, I have to remember my purpose is to increas His Kingdom.

AS we preach the gospel and it results in changed lives by new birth, inevitably it will change the world as Gods law flows out from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem;
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

 

[Iconoclast]

Kuyper wrote on pg405;

[Our 19th century is dying away under the hypnosis of the dogma of evolution. To be sure, in our country and elsewhere Christian action has develop greater resiliency than has seemed possible since the time of the Reformation, but while rapidly gaining ground, this action until now has been almost exclusively practical mystical in character.
At the center of the life of human consciousness, IE, in science, and literature, and in the Press, leadership has remained largely in the hands of intellectuals with a Christless perspective. Although there are some indications of a change in this respect, and our University too is trying to hasten change, it cannot be denied that the sphere of higher thinking Christian presuppositions serve only sporadically as the lodestar.

What is more, the influence of the time-honored Christian mind has diminished rapidly in the thinking of this century, and for that the hynosis of the evolution dogma is especially to blame.]

Kuyper was very intelligent. It is looking as if he as one person was trying to be a force for good, but he was trying to influence so many issues by himself, with little support. Not sure yet, but he seems more on target then off target.

 

[JonC]

Here we differ. We do not just judge or inform the world of their sins, in an effort to get them to clean up a little bit, sort of self-help and a little cleansing the outward conduct.

I think where we disagree (probably the only area of disagreement) is how we interact with the World. But we are each accountable to God, so I say we follow our convictions the best we can.

I hope my absence from political involvement will be a witness of Christ just as much as other Christians involvement. I don't mean "to each his own", but I do believe we have to be faithful even if we disagree.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think where we disagree (probably the only area of disagreement) is how we interact with the World. But we are each accountable to God, so I say we follow our convictions the best we can.

I hope my absence from political involvement will be a witness of Christ just as much as other Christians involvement. I don't mean "to each his own", but I do believe we have to be faithful even if we disagree.

The big problem is that oin all of the areas that we as Christians refuse to participate in, just darkness will remain and will continue to fester and grow!

 

[JonC]

The big problem is that oin all of the areas that we as Christians refuse to participate in, just darkness will remain and will continue to fester and grow!

Do you believe Christians should be in the porn industry (to be salt and light")? Maybe they could move the industry to a less oppressive.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe Christians should be in the porn industry (to be salt and light")? Maybe they could move the industry to a less oppressive.

No, believe should be in music, movies, and publishing though!

 

[JonC]

No, believe should be in music, movies, and publishing though!

Why?

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you believe Christians should be in the porn industry (to be salt and light")? Maybe they could move the industry to a less oppressive.

How about Christians being in the legislature and writing laws against porn.

 

[JonC]

How about Christians being in the legislature and writing laws against porn.

Same difference, I suppose.

Porn is illegal in Islamic governed nations. But passing laws will not make a nation godly. The best of the World will never usurp God's Kingdom.

Personally, I think the Church does better when the enmity between the World and Christ is obvious.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Porn is illegal in Islamic governed nations. But passing laws will not make a nation godly. The best of the World will never usurp God's Kingdom.

No..we cannot legislate or force morality like Islam.
Nut this universe belongs to God.
Men are responsible to worship, serve, and obey God even if they do not at this present time.

While we cannot "force it by law", we can put forth God's law as the standard for everyone.

Personally, I think the Church does better when the enmity between the World and Christ is obvious.

The anthesis the exists removes many obstacles and makes the gospel easier to present.
I think we can do both.
I see nothing wrong with Christians taking a stand for God in the public forum.
Christian police, judges, councilman, nurses, senators.
If we do not

 

[JonC]

JonC,



N
Titus 1
King James Version

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

o..we cannot legislate or force morality like Islam.
Nut this universe belongs to God.
Men are responsible to worship, serve, and obey God even if they do not at this present time.

While we cannot "force it by law", we can put forth God's law as the standard for everyone.



The anthesis the exists removes many obstacles

Titus deals with the Church (guarding the Church against worldly influences).

I have to echo Paul here. What is the sins of the World to me? Am I to judge the World? No. I am to judge those inside, not outside.

 

[Iconoclast]

Titus deals with the Church (guarding the Church against worldly influences).

I have to echo Paul here. What is the sins of the World to me? Am I to judge the World? No. I am to judge those inside, not outside.

The Church should guard itself.
However God has the church still on earth.
The church is in the world but we do not want the world in the church.

I do not believe we surrender to the ungodly world system. To rescue the perishing the church must remain vital and spill over into the decadent cultures preaching the Kingdom of God as present and growing like the parable of the mustard seed

 

[Yeshua1]

Why?

We are to preserve the culture, and are sent by Lord Jesus out to be lights and the salt!

 

[Yeshua1]

Same difference, I suppose.

Porn is illegal in Islamic governed nations. But passing laws will not make a nation godly. The best of the World will never usurp God's Kingdom.

Personally, I think the Church does better when the enmity between the World and Christ is obvious.

So you would not have had Christians be involved in anti slavery movement, or woman or black rights?

 

[Yeshua1]

JonC,





No..we cannot legislate or force morality like Islam.
Nut this universe belongs to God.
Men are responsible to worship, serve, and obey God even if they do not at this present time.

While we cannot "force it by law", we can put forth God's law as the standard for everyone.



The anthesis the exists removes many obstacles and makes the gospel easier to present.
I think we can do both.
I see nothing wrong with Christians taking a stand for God in the public forum.
Christian police, judges, councilman, nurses, senators.
If we do not

If we decide to just stay in our churches and not be part of the culture, darkness dominates!

 

[Yeshua1]

Titus deals with the Church (guarding the Church against worldly influences).

I have to echo Paul here. What is the sins of the World to me? Am I to judge the World? No. I am to judge those inside, not outside.

We are to be involved in our society, is it not better to have leaders and say Judges and law makers who know and follow the scriptures?

 

[Yeshua1]

The Church should guard itself.
However God has the church still on earth.
The church is in the world but we do not want the world in the church.

I do not believe we surrender to the ungodly world system. To rescue the perishing the church must remain vital and spill over into the decadent cultures preaching the Kingdom of God as present and growing like the parable of the mustard seed

Would he have had the Christians not being involved in abolishing Slavery movement, as that would be "worldly?"

 

[JonC]

The Church should guard itself.
However God has the church still on earth.
The church is in the world but we do not want the world in the church.

I do not believe we surrender to the ungodly world system. To rescue the perishing the church must remain vital and spill over into the decadent cultures preaching the Kingdom of God as present and growing like the parable of the mustard seed

I believe that the Church should be the Church (I think that we both agree on that part, but am trying ineptly to make a point ).

What I mean is I believe that the Church is concerned not with secular government (those "outside") but with the governance of the congregation (those "inside"). The way the Church (and Christians, by extension) influence the world is not by becoming involved in politics but the exact opposite - by being the Church, by being Light, and by being Salt.

Historically this was the position until Christianity was made a State religion. The early Christians refused to vote. They refused military service. They refused to hold public office. AND they still influenced the world around them - not by entering into the systems of the world but by being witness of Christ to this World towards which they refused to join.

I wonder how much of an obstacle political parties have become (perhaps just a side note.....you know, @Iconoclast , how my mind wanders ). I wonder if the Christian who is also a dedicated Democrat finds the DNC a barrier when dealing with Republicans. I wonder if the GOP is a barrier to Republican Christians dealing with lost Democrats. I also wonder if people can see the difference between the works and views of people like Ben Shapiro (not a slight towards the man, I really appreciate him...but my son thinks he talks too fast) Republicans who are Christians.

My point is how are the actions of a Christian and a non-Christian different if their voice is the GOP (or any political party)? There are many atheists who promote good social values (values align with "Christian" values). The goal of politics is to influence the World through political means. Politics is worldly by definition (it comes from the Greek πολιτικά [politiká], referring to the concerns of cities). Politics involves running secular governments, making secular laws, and governing secular society.

Is that where Christians should lend their voice? Is the goal of Christianity to influence the world into making good laws, creating a fair secular government, and governing a secular society? Or is the goal of Christianity to point to Christ and God's Kingdom, which is not of this world; to be a witness of Christ by standing apart from the powers and principles of this world?

Those are, of course, questions each of us have to ask ourselves. For me, the answer is that politics is a power of this World and one which is by definition at odds with the Church. So my answer is that I will try not to be involved in politics, to include voting (interestingly, I can say my last vote cast was for Trump).

I have to follow my conscious. Others do not. They should follow their own. We are accountable in these matters, and they really are serious issues with serious implications. I believe we are going to be held accountable for how we use our voices in this life. So each of use have to consider this issue and be faithful as best we can to God.