Cultural Engagement: Every Christian's Obligation

[JonC]

Would he have had the Christians not being involved in abolishing Slavery movement, as that would be "worldly?"

Were atheists involved in movements advocating the abolition of slavery serving as witnesses of Christ, witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ? No, of course not.

I am saying that the Christian who sought political means to end slavery was being unfaithful and this unfaithfulness ultimately contributed to the failure of the churches in the civil right's movements.

Churches should have stood out against slavery. Churches should have stood out against racism. Churches should have stood out against social oppression. Unfortunately, Christians chose to abandon the Church and flee to politics to effect a desired end. And this has been one of American Christianity's largest failures as it replaced the gospel of Jesus Christ in many churches with political social justice.

 

[Yeshua1]

Were atheists involved in movements advocating the abolition of slavery serving as witnesses of Christ, witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ? No, of course not.

I am saying that the Christian who sought political means to end slavery was being unfaithful and this unfaithfulness ultimately contributed to the failure of the churches in the civil right's movements.

Churches should have stood out against slavery. Churches should have stood out against racism. Churches should have stood out against social oppression. Unfortunately, Christians chose to abandon the Church and flee to politics to effect a desired end. And this has been one of American Christianity's largest failures as it replaced the gospel of Jesus Christ in many churches with political social justice.

its NOT either/or in this case!

 

[JonC]

its NOT either/or in this case!

Jesus said it was.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus said it was.

Where?

 

[JonC]

Jesus said it in Luke 9. If you believe in Christ but then you turn back to the affairs of this world then you are not fit for the kingdom of God. You are, in fact, committing adultery (spiritually speaking).

James said it in James 4:4.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus said it in Luke 9. If you believe in Christ but then you turn back to the affairs of this world then you are not fit for the kingdom of God. You are, in fact, committing adultery (spiritually speaking).

James said it in James 4:4.

he did NOT command us to not be involved in our society and culture, as we were given as lights and salt!

 

[Iconoclast]

Paul said that we should pray for rulers, kings, those in authority.
1 Timothy 2
King James Version

2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;


Romans 13
King James Version

13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Being involved in the governing of this world is being brought under the rule of God.

Jesus is KING OF KINGS.....that implies a KIngdom here on earth, the has a KING.

This is not sinful, but biblical.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

We are used to bring this to pass. Gospel proclamation and obedient churches are to focus here. This spills over into the public domain...they take notice and God converts them one sinner at a time.

The person in LK 9:62 falls "away" from putting his hand to the plough, which is sharing in the Kingdom growth by new birth.

 

[Iconoclast]

1689 cof.
Chapter 24: Of the Civil Magistrate
1._____ God, the supreme Lord and King of all the world, hath ordained civil magistrates to be under him, over the people, for his own glory and the public good; and to this end hath armed them with the power of the sword, for defence and encouragement of them that do good, and for the punishment of evil doers.
( Romans 13:1-4 )
2._____ It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of a magistrate when called there unto; in the management whereof, as they ought especially to maintain justice and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each kingdom and commonwealth, so for that end they may lawfully now, under the New Testament wage war upon just and necessary occasions.
( 2 Samuel 23:3; Psalms 82:3, 4; Luke 3:14 )

3._____ Civil magistrates being set up by God for the ends aforesaid; subjection, in all lawful things commanded by them, ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but for conscience sake; and we ought to make supplications and prayers for kings and all that are in authority, that under them we may live a quiet and peaceable life, in all godliness and honesty.
( Romans 13:5-7; 1 Peter 2:17; 1 Timothy 2:1, 2 )

 

[poor-in-spirit]

According to our Lord, this sin cursed world controlled by satan was never to be His Kingdom. His Kingdom Comes when this world ends. In the interim, His Kingdom lives Spiritually in the hearts of His saints whom serve not only Him directly but also the whole world indirectly as its Salt.
Don't let your faith be in vain dear friends, truly repent obeying His Gospel, stop kicking against the pricks and let go our your lives here.

 

[Dave G]

Did you have a biblical thought or thoughts on this?

It's not our world, Tony.

His kingdom is not of this world;
It's of the world to come.

Our energies are better spent, not in engaging the culture around us, but in building up in the faith those that the Lord has called out of darkness and into the light, my friend.

The Lord has already given us all that we need to do...
Obey the magistrates, work quietly with our hands and so that we may give to those in need, and to look for His coming.
He has provided teachers and preachers and so forth ( Ephesians 4 ) for instruction in righteousness and in doctrine.

We should come out from among them and be separate as the Lord commands us to.
Past that, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that we are to be involved in the least, with this world and its ways.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Dave G,

It's not our world, Tony.

Correct. It belongs to God . He is the owner and rightful King
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

His kingdom is not of this world;
It's of the world to come.

When jesus says this to Pilate, He was saying my Kingdom Authority does not derive from an earthly source, but rather from heaven. Mt 28 has clarified that for us;
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore,

Our energies are better spent, not in engaging the culture around us, but in building up in the faith those that the Lord has called out of darkness and into the light, my friend.

The Lord has already given us all that we need to do...
Obey the magistrates, work quietly with our hands and so that we may give to those in need, and to look for His coming.
He has provided teachers and preachers and so forth ( Ephesians 4 ) for instruction in righteousness and in doctrine.

We should come out from among them and be separate as the Lord commands us to.
Past that, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that we are to be involved in the least, with this world and its ways

I do agree with that which i have left in black..I do not agree that we just observe the decaying culture and lament how bad things are getting.

 

[JonC]

he did NOT command us to not be involved in our society and culture, as we were given as lights and salt!

Our involvement is our involvement in the Kingdom of God, not in joining with the World. When we join the World there is no difference between us and non-Christians who share our values. No salt. No Light. No difference.

 

[timtofly]

Obedience to God is what drives the world. So government is not to be a means of promoting the church. The church should be the means of promoting the government. Obedience to God will put Christians in position of civil leadership.

And using the culture to get it done is also the wrong approach. Obedience to God may open doors culturally, but we live in a cookie cutter world where civil life and culture itself cannot last unless they have a cookie cutter mass following. That is why education is important but not the goal.

The key is discipleship instead of mere education. People have to have an instilled attitude of Obedience. The difference between discipleship and education. Some have turned discipleship into just being educated into one set of beliefs.

Discipleship is not human beliefs, folks. It is obedience to God. Human beliefs are what created thousands of denominations we call cults. Even major religions are just cults with billions of followers. Cult should not mean just a few really weird ideological points. Cult is any group not obedient to God, but human whims dressed up as spiritual truths.

If the church was obedient to God, the world would be entirely different. The fact is we are stuck in this Bible truth: "Everyone did that which is right in their own eyes." Yes, we think we are being obedient to God. If the Holy Spirit was the administrator of every Christian University, there would only be one set of beliefs, not even two sets, much less hundreds.

We the people can govern ourselves. Add religion to government and that is no longer the case. Because church is viewed as a command structure. But that is the wrong view. The church is all believers obedient to God, and God takes care of the outcome.

 

[Iconoclast]

According to our Lord, this sin cursed world controlled by satan was never to be His Kingdom. His Kingdom Comes when this world ends. In the interim, His Kingdom lives Spiritually in the hearts of His saints whom serve not only Him directly but also the whole world indirectly as its Salt.
Don't let your faith be in vain dear friends, truly repent obeying His Gospel, stop kicking against the pricks and let go our your lives here.

I think the Kingdom has already been inaugurated. It spreads as the kingdom goes worldwide.

 

[JonC]

Obedience to God is what drives the world.

Scripture describes the World as being driven by disobedience, not obedience, to God. Christians are called out from the World, separated, set apart as a holy people, a "chosen race".

Obedience to God is what drives people of the kingdom of God, not the World. The World is hostile to God.

@Iconoclast makes a very good point about the Kingdom of God which is inaugurated. That kingdom is here. It grows and lives with the people of God because God dwells with His people.

That said, we should not confuse the kingdom with the World. The World is condemned. The World is fading. The World has been judged already. People are redeemed from the powers of this World.

My observation is many Christians have joined the World in order to try to redeem the World by making it appear godly. For many their hero's of the faith are men like Ben Shapiro, who is a non-Chtistian man of principles and conservative values. What matters ends up having nothing to do with Christ.

@Iconoclast also mentioned a "Christian" party. Were this to happen, a party that could represent the Christian voice (not in social issues but a party that could stand unwavering for the gospel of Jesus Christ) we may see a difference. It probably would not have a great political impact in terms of this World - BUT it would be salt and light.

I suspect many (most) Christian Republicans would oppose such a party in favor of the GOP because their goal is not growing the kingdom of God but in moralizing the World (clothing the wolves in sheep skins).

 

[JonC]

We are used to bring this to pass. Gospel proclamation and obedient churches are to focus here. This spills over into the public domain...they take notice and God converts them one sinner at a time.

The person in LK 9:62 falls "away" from putting his hand to the plough, which is sharing in the Kingdom growth by new birth.

^^^^^ This.

We are not to join World politics (we are not join the GOP or DNC, or Libertarian party, or whatever else power of this world we would be tempted to join.

The Church is our voice. Christ is our voice. The change that we are to cause in the world is proclaiming the gospel and being obedient to the commands of Christ. The World takes notice because we are so different....we are not a part of the World system but are of the Kingdom of God...we are Salt....Light. And God converts them one sinner at a time.

When they are converted they (if their conversion is true) are added to the kingdom of God and become one more voice of Light in a dark world.

Anyone who puts their hand to the plow and looks back are not fit for the kingdom of God. But it seems that this is the trend with Christianity in our society and culture. They put the hand to the plow (or at least appear to have some type of desire to plow) and then turn back to the World.

Sometimes the seed falls amongst the thorns. The plant springs to life but is quickly choked out by the thorns....by the affairs of this World.

 

[AustinC]

Scripture describes the World as being driven by disobedience, not obedience, to God. Christians are called out from the World, separated, set apart as a holy people, a "chosen race".

Obedience to God is what drives people of the kingdom of God, not the World. The World is hostile to God.

@Iconoclast makes a very good point about the Kingdom of God which is inaugurated. That kingdom is here. It grows and lives with the people of God because God dwells with His people.

That said, we should not confuse the kingdom with the World. The World is condemned. The World is fading. The World has been judged already. People are redeemed from the powers of this World.

My observation is many Christians have joined the World in order to try to redeem the World by making it appear godly. For many their hero's of the faith are men like Ben Shapiro, who is a non-Chtistian man of principles and conservative values. What matters ends up having nothing to do with Christ.

@Iconoclast also mentioned a "Christian" party. Were this to happen, a party that could represent the Christian voice (not in social issues but a party that could stand unwavering for the gospel of Jesus Christ) we may see a difference. It probably would not have a great political impact in terms of this World - BUT it would be salt and light.

I suspect many (most) Christian Republicans would oppose such a party in favor of the GOP because their goal is not growing the kingdom of God but in moralizing the World (clothing the wolves in sheep skins).

The US system only allows for two elite political parties because it functions under a winner-takes-all format. Unlike Parliamentary governments who go by proportional voting, which leads to multiple parties and coalition building, the US forces its coalitions to be created within a given party. Thus Christians have to choose between the Democratic Party (a coalition of ideologies that compete internally) and the Republican Party (a coalition of ideologies that compete internally). If they break from a coalition within the two elite Parties, they will become as insignificant as the Green Party.
The problem is that Christians have exchanged their King, Jesus, as their hope for joyful living and have exchanged their chosen political party as their hope for prosperity now. It is wicked idolatry. It is akin to Israel begging for a human king rather than have God be their King. It is worship of a different god. Such are those who desperately cling to Donald Trump as their king who will give them their best life now, here on earth. How sad it must make God to watch his children chose a lesser being as their savior. (Thus I will publicly call Donald Trump an antichrist. And I publicly call Joe Biden an antichrist. Both are person's that Christians have raised up as their king, while turning their back to God.)

 

[Yeshua1]

^^^^^ This.

We are not to join World politics (we are not join the GOP or DNC, or Libertarian party, or whatever else power of this world we would be tempted to join.

The Church is our voice. Christ is our voice. The change that we are to cause in the world is proclaiming the gospel and being obedient to the commands of Christ. The World takes notice because we are so different....we are not a part of the World system but are of the Kingdom of God...we are Salt....Light. And God converts them one sinner at a time.

When they are converted they (if their conversion is true) are added to the kingdom of God and become one more voice of Light in a dark world.

Anyone who puts their hand to the plow and looks back are not fit for the kingdom of God. But it seems that this is the trend with Christianity in our society and culture. They put the hand to the plow (or at least appear to have some type of desire to plow) and then turn back to the World.

Sometimes the seed falls amongst the thorns. The plant springs to life but is quickly choked out by the thorns....by the affairs of this World.

We can be involved in the affairs of the world as Ambassadors of Lord Jesus, command is not to be on the world, just do not be of it!

 

[JonC]

The problem is that Christians have exchanged their King, Jesus, as their hope for joyful living and have exchanged their chosen political party as their hope for prosperity now. It is wicked idolatry. It is akin to Israel begging for a human king rather than have God be their King. It is worship of a different god.

I absolutely agree.

 

[JonC]

We can be involved in the affairs of the world as Ambassadors of Lord Jesus, command is not to be on the world, just do not be of it!

No, we can't. We can engage the World (with the gospel of Jesus Christ, in both word and deed) but we cannot be involved in the World and still be Ambassadors of Christ. When you decide to become involved in secular politics you instantly damage your witness. If you choose to be an ambassador of the Democrat party then you tell the Democrats that they are OK while alienating Republicans. If you choose to be an ambassador of the Republican party then you tell Republicans they are OK and alienate Democrats.

We cannot live on the fence. We have to choose if we are going to be of this world or of Christ. We can't have it both ways.