Cured

[GordonSlocum]

I am not sure how that is not evident. The fact that Christ’s death is sufficient for all sins for all time is not the same as saying that Christ paid for all sins for all time. For the most part, the verses you picked addressed the first issue, not the second one. Detailed explanations could be given, but I don’t feel it judicious to take the time.

So far as I know, no one has yet to point out a verse that I ignore. It’s not about being slick in the least. There are direct conflicts between what Helen says and Scripture. When Scripture declares unbelief to be a sin, that means it is. (And if Jesus paid for all sin, then unbelief is also paid for.) When Scripture declares that man goes to hell for sin, that means he does. No system or precommitment of belief gets to change that. We must adjust our theology around Scripture.

I have to laugh at that - for to me that is slick. I hope you don’t take it personal I don’t mean it that way. I do see your argument as deviant and slick.

At best it is a charged statement.

I Timothy 4:10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Hebrews 2:9. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

II Peter 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

I John 2: 2. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world

We both know that it is a word game.

The Propitiation for our sins and for the whole world includes the whole of it “all of it”. His propitiation is sufficient for our sin nature, and our sins. It is sufficient for unbelief. It paid for the sin of unbelief. Because it is paid for in no way equals universal salvation. Again it is a word game and we both know that.

I accept the universal and complete payment for sin - which includes the sin of unbelief.

Romans 10:9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Here a person moves from the sin of unbelief to salvation. The propitiation will always be effective to anyone that ceases to be an unbeliever and believes. All of mankind’s sin debt is paid for. All man has to do is believe. If one denies that propitiation is for all men of all time “the whole world” then I would conclude that theology incorrect.

:saint: Gordon to all the Saints Called according to Foreknowledge who have left unbelief and trusted in the Grace of God (work of God) for their salvation, which Chirst is the propitiation for the sins of the world - all mankind. :applause: :godisgood:

Come let us reason together - now that is what I like. Thank you Lord

Time for a Good Old Baptist Fee Willer Heart Warming Hymn
http://www.friendshipbaptistchurch.com/hymn/bphym160.mid

 

[GordonSlocum]

But look at the nature that is doing the willing! It seems from scripture that our will can only take us farther from God. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Corinthians 2:14

That is why God changes our hearts, to enable us want the things of God, which by nature we would never choose. I am not sure I agree with everything in this passage (pretty sure I don't in fact), but it illustrates the point well.

So you see sinner man having to be quickened or regenerated or born again and then infused with a special gift of faith so that they will receive the Gospel and use the special infused gift of faith to believe unto salvation.

Is that what you believe?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Who is it who drinks from the water of life? Him who overcomes; the one who is thirsty.

Who is it who goes into the fiery lake? The others, the unbelievers, and these are the things they are involved in. They would not be involved in them if they were believers.

Yes. But the verse says that their sins send them to hell. That is the part you ignore.

That is why they do the things listed in your Revelation verse. Because they chose to suppress what they knew was true and chose the lie. Romans 1 is extraordinarily clear about this. Their lifestyles were the result of what they had chosen, and those lifestyles were filled with sin. But it was not because of those actual sins they were in hell, but because of the choice that led to them -- refusing God.

But again, the text says they are there for their sins.

The judgment verses of Revelation 20:11-15 indicate that all of us will be judged according to what we have done. Believers too? Yes, and Paul makes this clear a number of times, one time being in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15:

Rev 20:11-15 is the Great White Throne Judgment for unbelievers, not believers. And it says that they are judged according to their works and sent to hell for them. 1 Cor 3:12-15 is about building a church, not about individual rewards.

However, works aside, your Revelation passage makes it very clear that if a person's name is NOT in the Book of Life, the person is condemned, regardless of works.

No it doesn’t. The passage makes clear that the works—the things written in the books—are the basis for condemnation.

And John 3:16-19, again, makes it extremely clear that condemnation is determined because of belief.

This too. Unbelief is a sin. Belief is the only way that sins can be forgiven. But the sins are the ground of condemnation.

So the actual debt of death, the wages if you will, have been paid for, as Hebrews says "everyone." That means that sin cannot send you to hell. Unbelief does. This being said, the mark of the unbeliever, especially as he or she gets older, becomes more and more a lifestyle of sin, which is what is addressed by your verses in Revelation.

Do you really not understand this? Unbelief is a sin. When you say that “sin cannot send you to hell. Unbelief does” you are making no sense. Think about it, Helen. Don’t just keep putting the same stuff up here. When a person fails to believe in Christ for salvation, they are guilty of sin. And if no other sin sends them to hell, the sin of unbelief does.

Thus, dying in one's sins is the result of a matter of belief in Christ.

Yes, and their sins are the ground of their punishment in hell.



Helen, you are relying way too much on philosophy and man's mind to sort through these things when Scripture is sufficient for them.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I have to laugh at that - for to me that is slick. I hope you don’t take it personal I don’t mean it that way. I do see your argument as deviant and slick.

Then perhaps you should look again. There is nothing deviant or slick about it. The distinction between sufficient and efficient is not a word game at all.

I Timothy 4:10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Do you know what the word malista means? Do you know which word is translated for malista?

Hebrews 2:9. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

For everyone who? And what does it mean to “taste death”?

II Peter 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

What does it mean to be bought? What OT passage is being referred to here?

I John 2: 2. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world

What does it mean to “propitiate? Who is “the whole world?”

We both know that it is a word game.

Yes, I think a lot of it has to do with words. I think you simply have not studied enough on these verses to understand what the controversies are. I am fine if you disagree with my interpretation on these verses. But it is incorrect to pretend like these are nails in the coffin that Calvinists have never dealt with. They have.

For instance, 1 Tim 4:10 has four options for interpretation. But it clearly sets God’s work for believers apart from what he did for others. Malista is a key word here. It means that all men enjoy to some degree what believers enjoy to a full degree. It is probably talking about a temporal-eternal distinction. Unbelievers are preserved and delivered from some of the evils and trials of this life that come because of sin. They have many blessings from God. But their salvation ends in this life. Believers are saved from evil and trial of sin not only in this but in the next also. That is the context of 1 Tim 4.

Hebrews 2:9 in context is about bringing many sons to glory, and those who he sanctifies, and it teaches that Jesus tasted death for “everyone” of those people. It may not say anything at all about those whom he does not bring to glory.

2 Peter 2:1 is probably an allusion to an OT prophecy in Deut 32.6 where God bought Israel. It does not refer to redemption from sin there but deliverance from Egypt. It is not clear who the despotes is there, whether Christ or the Father. But the word “bought” (agorazo) is never used in a soteriological context, as I recall.

1 John 2:2 tells us that whatever Christ did for us, he also did for the whole world. So that has to be considered.

Now again, feel free to differ with me on these verses. I am not bothered by that. But understand that these verses are not the lynchpin. Calvinists have long given explanations of these verses.

It is sufficient for unbelief. It paid for the sin of unbelief.

The first is true; the second is not in some cases.

I accept the universal and complete payment for sin - which includes the sin of unbelief.

Then on what basis does God send people to hell? How can God send someone to hell for sin that was paid for? Is the wages of sin death plus something else?

Having said that, I do believe Christ died for the world. There is no conflict there with Calvinism.

 

[amity]

So you see sinner man having to be quickened or regenerated or born again and then infused with a special gift of faith so that they will receive the Gospel and use the special infused gift of faith to believe unto salvation.

Is that what you believe?

That is too small of a nutshell, but nonetheless a pretty decent summation.

I like Hegel! It is a "dialectical" process. IOW, there is no clear-cut answer to the "which came first" question because there is no chicken or egg. The whole question is wrong.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Then perhaps you should look again. There is nothing deviant or slick about it. The distinction between sufficient and efficient is not a word game at all.

I do know that my next van will be sufficent but not efficient.

Do you know what the word malista means? Do you know which word is translated for malista?

I hope my adverbs and adjectives do their stuff. What a strong case for eternal security. Just think I am an adjective being modified by an adverb that was saved by the ultimate noun. This is ESPECIALLY good news if you know what I mean.

For everyone who? And what does it mean to “taste death”?

If you had been with me the other day at about 30 minutes past light you would have testified that you had taste death. There we are smack dab in the middle of our lane and a white vehicle all of a sudden is coming at me head on. There my friend is a taste of death. But I doubt that is what you are looking for. I ask a gent on the street what it meant and he told me, "Taste death is clamping my chops into a juicy 10 oz. half cooked prime rib. To taste death in this manner is bless". I had to agree. But, there again this I don't think is what you are looking for. I did read somewhere in the Bible that Jesus died for me, you too, and don't forget all those living in never never land. Check it out in the Gospels. Here is a good old free willer Baptist hymn to help in understanding this great truth.

http://www.friendshipbaptistchurch.com/hymn/bphym166.mid

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Y'all are making salvation too complicated.

Jesus did not say that whosoever has already been called, shall call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.

Jesus said that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. PERIOD...

God gave us a free will and He will never violate that. He could have forced us to love Him, but He didn't. He gave us a free will so we would choose to love Him.

Why would He create man in His own image and then deny half of them the chance to love Him?

Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

[Helen]

Y'all are making salvation too complicated.

Jesus did not say that whosoever has already been called, shall call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.

Jesus said that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. PERIOD...

God gave us a free will and He will never violate that. He could have forced us to love Him, but He didn't. He gave us a free will so we would choose to love Him.

Why would He create man in His own image and then deny half of them the chance to love Him?

Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

That cuts to the chase about as well as any argument I have read on this board. Thanks!

 

[amity]

Y'all are making salvation too complicated.

Jesus did not say that whosoever has already been called, shall call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.

Jesus said that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. PERIOD...

God gave us a free will and He will never violate that. He could have forced us to love Him, but He didn't. He gave us a free will so we would choose to love Him.

Why would He create man in His own image and then deny half of them the chance to love Him?

Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

No, not PERIOD. There are too many other things said on this subject to focus on just one scripture to the exclusion of all else and say "God said it, I believe it, that settles it."

Plus, you are really missing the forest for the trees! If not for Christ's sacrifice, we would all go to hell. Christ's finished work means that some, and in fact "many", will go to heaven. He did NOT deny half of them the chance to love Him! Where did that come from?

Personally I believe the vast majority of people who ever lived will spend eternity with Christ. If not for election, the overwhelming majority would be going to hell, since so very few ever have even the remotest chance to hear the tiniest sliver of the gospel and believe! God can save them without relying on us to do X, Y, or Z to make it "possible."

 

[Rippon]

God doesn't deal out chances . Again , He is not an equal-opportunity God . He deliberately has withheld saving truths from many . Some of those have heard and will hear those truths but He hides the "impact" from them . Many others He has willed that they never hear those truths at all .

The Lord calls only those He has chosen from eternity past . Those who were ordained ( predestined , appointed ) to belive will call on Him because He gives them the desire to call on Him . The call is not forced on them . He melts their hard hearts and they willingly embrace Him .

 

[GordonSlocum]

Y'all are making salvation too complicated.

Jesus did not say that whosoever has already been called, shall call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.

Jesus said that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. PERIOD...

God gave us a free will and He will never violate that. He could have forced us to love Him, but He didn't. He gave us a free will so we would choose to love Him.

Why would He create man in His own image and then deny half of them the chance to love Him?

Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I agree with you "I Am Blessed 16"

 

[J.D.]

Y'all are making salvation too complicated.

Jesus did not say that whosoever has already been called, shall call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.

Jesus said that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. PERIOD...

God gave us a free will and He will never violate that. He could have forced us to love Him, but He didn't. He gave us a free will so we would choose to love Him.

Why would He create man in His own image and then deny half of them the chance to love Him?

Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Salvation is not complicated. Here it is: "God saves sinners". People make it complicated by adding to that.

"Now say this prayer"
"Now go to the altar"
"Now get baptized"
"Now surrender your life"

All this is based on the idea that something must be added by man to the work of God. When we take a scripture "whosoever shall call..." and warp into a Baptist sacrament "repeat this prayer after me..." we are complicating the Gospel. We are too impatient, too eager for results, too unwilling to let God have the power. We don't think God can do the saving. It's gotta be "God has already done his part, now we must do ours". Now THAT'S COMPLICATED.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

No, not PERIOD. There are too many other things said on this subject to focus on just one scripture to the exclusion of all else and say "God said it, I believe it, that settles it."

Actually, it is "God said it, that settles it." It matters not if you believe it...

Plus, you are really missing the forest for the trees!

Really? Hmmmm. I've been noted for getting to the bottom line by cutting down the forest and finding the tree with the problem. It's usually the one camouflaged with 'extra conditions'.

No one will ever convince me that God has a chosen few that will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven and refuse entrance to others whom He has chosen already. That goes against every Scripture I have read.

What part of "whosoever" don't you understand?

 

[GordonSlocum]

Salvation is not complicated. Here it is: "God saves sinners". People make it complicated by adding to that.

"Now say this prayer"
"Now go to the altar"
"Now get baptized"
"Now surrender your life"

All this is based on the idea that something must be added by man to the work of God. When we take a scripture "whosoever shall call..." and warp into a Baptist sacrament "repeat this prayer after me..." we are complicating the Gospel. We are too impatient, too eager for results, too unwilling to let God have the power. We don't think God can do the saving. It's gotta be "God has already done his part, now we must do ours". Now THAT'S COMPLICATED.

My response: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/n/onlybelv.htm

 

[npetreley]

God gave us a free will and He will never violate that.

So what you're saying is that if people are going to hell of their own free will, God would never violate that, step in, and do anything to change their minds. After all, man's free will is by far more sacred to God than man's eternal destiny.

 

[GordonSlocum]

More Curing Grace for all who want to be CURED

Verse 1: In (the) beginning was The Word and The Word was with The God and God was The Word.
Verse 2: This (One) was in (the) beginning with The God.

Verse 3: All things through or by Him became and without Him became not one thing which has become

Verse 4: In Him life was and The Life was the light of the of men.
Verse 5: and the light in the darkness shines, and the darkness it not overtook.

Verse 6: There was a man having been sent from God name to him John
Verse 7: this (man) came for witness that he might witness concerning The Light that all men might believe through Him.
Verse 8: He was not that The Light but that he might witness concerning The Light.
Verse 9: It was The Light The True (one) which enlightens every man coming into the world.

I. The Word and God are seperate but one.

II. The Word is Him and Created all things.

III. In Him life
-----1. Light - the light of men

-----2. lignt shines in darkness

-----3. darkness did not over take the light

IV. A man called John
-----1. Came as a withess
---------a. A witness about the Light
---------b. That all men MIGHT believe through Him (The Light)
-----2. John was not The Light
---------a. John was the witness of The Light
---------b. The Light was The True Light
---------c. This Light Enlightens every man coming into the world

Conclusion:

Word / God / The Light / The Life are one. The Word and God are separate but one. John was not the light but was a witness concerning the light. There is darkness but the darkness did not overtake the Light. This light that was not over taken by the darkness is the light of all men coming into the world.

You will notice I have not mentioned any outside source, opinion, and other material. I have just acknowledged what it says in outline form and in a summery. You will not find one word or view of my personal interpretation in it.

 

[J.D.]

No one will ever convince me that God has a chosen few that will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven and refuse entrance to others whom He has chosen already. That goes against every Scripture I have read.

Did you read this one:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And what about this one?

Mark 13:20 (KJV) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

John 15 ..If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

There's some more but I don't have time to look them up right now. Rippon is better than me at posting "snippets", right Rip?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

So what you're saying is that if people are going to hell of their own free will, God would never violate that, step in, and do anything to change their minds. After all, man's free will is by far more sacred to God than man's eternal destiny.

I did not say He would not do anything to change their minds. Those are your words, not mine.

I believe the Holy Spirit will woo men. I believe that God will put someone in a man's path to try and lead him to the Lord.

Will he violate that man's free will and force him to accept the sacrifice Jesus made for him? No! He will not!

Did you read this one:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And what about this one?

Mark 13:20 (KJV) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

John 15 ..If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

I don't believe I negate anything those Scriptures say by my belief that God has chosen all to inherit the Kingdom of God.

God created Hell for the devil and his angels - not for human beings made in His image. He never meant for us to go there, but He will not force us to accept His Son.

I have 'chosen' everyone to love my children, but I will not force them to do so. My prayer is that they will 'choose' to love them of their own free will...

It is up to man to choose now. God has done His part.

 

[Allan]

Did you read this one:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And did you see the rest of the verse:

...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

['through' = by or with. 'and' = in addition to] Gods choosing to salvation 'was by' or was based upon His work and (in addition to) mans reception.
Notice I didn't put a particualar flavor there because it must always be a work of God first to the believing of the truth from the one who will be saved. And God knows them all, even by name. And it is for this cause they are chosen as the scripture just stated almost word for word.

Mark 13:20 (KJV) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Yep, the elects sake. Those who (as shown above) have not YET believed His truth.

John 15 ..If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Still no problem.

There's some more but I don't have time to look them up right now. Rippon is better than me at posting "snippets",

Actually your both about the same.

 

[Jarthur001]

Verse 1: In (the) beginning was The Word and The Word was with The God and God was The Word.
Verse 2: This (One) was in (the) beginning with The God.

Verse 3: All things through or by Him became and without Him became not one thing which has become

Verse 4: In Him life was and The Life was the light of the of men.
Verse 5: and the light in the darkness shines, and the darkness it not overtook.

Verse 6: There was a man having been sent from God name to him John
Verse 7: this (man) came for witness that he might witness concerning The Light that all men might believe through Him.
Verse 8: He was not that The Light but that he might witness concerning The Light.
Verse 9: It was The Light The True (one) which enlightens every man coming into the world.

I. The Word and God are seperate but one.

II. The Word is Him and Created all things.

III. In Him life
-----1. Light - the light of men

-----2. lignt shines in darkness

-----3. darkness did not over take the light

IV. A man called John
-----1. Came as a withess
---------a. A witness about the Light
---------b. That all men MIGHT believe through Him (The Light)
-----2. John was not The Light
---------a. John was the witness of The Light
---------b. The Light was The True Light
---------c. This Light Enlightens every man coming into the world

Conclusion:

Word / God / The Light / The Life are one. The Word and God are separate but one. John was not the light but was a witness concerning the light. There is darkness but the darkness did not overtake the Light. This light that was not over taken by the darkness is the light of all men coming into the world.

You will notice I have not mentioned any outside source, opinion, and other material. I have just acknowledged what it says in outline form and in a summery. You will not find one word or view of my personal interpretation in it.

You will also notice, you always stop at verse 9. Wonder why? Not sure you know this or not, but John has a few more verses and even chapters past verse 9. Care to read them without outside opinion?