DEAD MEANS DEAD!

I think I like Bro. Bob very much, he shoots straight and I can read his responses without glazing over.

Mind you I may not agree with it but I sure like his style.

 

I posted this for your sake Claudia. It is not as ridiculous as you think.

DHK

 

I posted this for your sake Claudia. It is not as ridiculous as you think.

DHK </font>[/QUOTE]AMEN!!!!! Soul sleep IS NOT AND WILL NEVER BE a legitimate part of Christian theology!

 

Thank you, Briony-Gloriana;

Now, the Bible teaches that those God brings back are those that are "asleep" in Jesus. JFox; I know Abraham is awake but that don't tell me nothing about lazarus for he was at rest. As far as awaking the souls, the ones under the altar of God because of the word of God were disturbed or awakened and when God gave them the their white robes He told them to rest on for a little while. He didn't say go on through and about Heaven until then He said "rest on" a little while. I know there are those that are awake in Heaven but I think there are some complete people over there both soul and body but it was those that arose when Jesus did as the Bible teaches. I go by what the word says not something that makes me feel good.

Well, it is what the Scripture says and I can't change it for you. Even Apostle Paul called it a rest which seems to suggest "sleep" for when I rest here at home I hit the bed and close my eyes and forget about all the troubles for a short time. Now I believe that sleep in Heaven will only seem like one night but that is not Scripture but what I feel for if we sleep a restful sleep here it seems like a moment.

 

You don't have to change the Scripture. If Abraham, who died, is awake in Heaven, why wouldn't Lazarus and the others? Soul sleep is a heresy!

As I said before, Christ didn't redeem us just so we can be trophies lying around in Heaven. There is plenty of activity in Heaven, and it will not be tiring and burdensome like the work we do here. Read the Book of Revelation 7:15 and others.

 

1 Thessolonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This establishes that they are with God already. Otherwise they could not be brought with Him

1 Thessolonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Prevent here is more correctly rendered preceed or go before them... Hard to do if we who are alive are starting on earth to meet with those who are already with God ...

1 Thessolonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rise First. Literally means to stand up... Think of it this way... They have been bowing and worshipping in Heaven since they fell 'asleep'... The command goes forth to return and take dominion over the earth again... So, they Stand Up First...

It could also mean to stand up and be counted...

1 Thessolonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the heavenly mobilization gets into the Physical realm of the air and clouds... Then we who are alive will be 'Caught Up'...


I note something here that I had never considered before...

When do we get our Glorified Bodies?

Is there any Scripture that says (outright) that for the believer death doesn't involved the putting off of mortality and the putting on of immortality?

That is, as stated previously, this body is but a seed that dies, is buried, and rots into dust...

It is not the same body we wear in heaven...

Who'd want to?

So, what says (outright) that we don't have an immortal body while we await the second coming?

SMM

 

SpiritualMadMan,

Some people say we do get some sort of body while in heaven awaiting the resurrection. Here is a link to a web site about the afterlife and it mentions the possibility of getting a new body while awaiting the resurrection: http://www.epm.org/articles/heavenqa.html

 

Thank you Br. Bob and JFox1 you proved my point with claudia T I am sure glad you all came along, I believe Claudia is trying to convience herself of her interpertation when we all see the Bible in our own interpertations. Each and every person who is Christ filled has the right to question the Bible, it is not only our right but our duty as Strong Christians to Believe in the Word and as Soulders for Christ question and discuss the Word. He will show us the way and our understanding comes through Him. Weather we think alike or not.

 

JFox1; You need to be careful calling Scripture heresy;


1 Corinthians, chapter 15
"18": Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
We know the body perishes regardless so the above Scripture does not speak of the body.


1 Corinthians, chapter 15
35": But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

"36": Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

"37": And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

"38": But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

The body

1 Thessalonians, chapter 4
13": But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

"14": For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Seems to me for God to "bring" them with Him they must be with Him." That is not heresy, you need to be careful JFox1 you are entitled to your belief and that is up to you but you could be wrong and if you are then you are calling God's word heresy!

 

I stand by what I said. Soul sleep is a false teaching and a heresy! Most denominations do teach there is a conscious afterlife in either heaven or hell. Are you saying all of these churches are wrong and you're right? Only certain groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrong, and Seventh-Day Adventists teach soul sleep. That should set off alarms right then and there that there is something wrong with that teaching. I do not call Scripture heresy but certain interpretations most certainly are!

 

Problem is Claudia...

We've done that...

Shown you that...

Lazarus was a real person...

He died and was raised just as in the Story Jesus told.

Given this context, of a real Lazarus who died and was raised, it is reasonable to assume that there was also a Rich Man and that Jesus was in fact giving a glimpse beyond the veil as to how things were before He ascended...

Is your faith built on such a foundation that if any one part fails the whole building falls?

Paul wrote:
1 Corinthians 2:2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Why?

Because the more stuff we add to the basic message as "essentials" the more likely one of those "essentials" are to be found 'less than perfect', shipwrecking someones faith...

But, by keeping the message simple, and limited to the absolute essentials, based solely on absolutes...

A faith built on that can not fail...

And, as some of us have learned on this Board there is a nother reason...

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Now if this is true of Jew and Gentile Believers...

How much more so should it be true of Modern Day Christians?

So, if your hypothesis of when, where and how we get our Glorified Bodies fails...

Will you faith fail with it?

Because you sure argue for it as if your life depends on convincing us of it...

SMM

 

Yea, just like you said Lazarus was awake and you have no knowledge of that whatsoever. I will stick with the Scriptures thank you. If you so sure JFox1, tell me about the souls under the alter of God. Tell me about the ones asleep in Jesus that God Himself will be bringing. Tell me about a rest that Paul was going to enter at the point of death. Most of all, tell me what the soul is doing in Heaven with Scripture and that they are just the souls. Please

Someone please show me a Scripture where Abraham could send Lazarus to Hell to take some water. Show me a Sripture where Abraham had the power to even look into Hell. I certainly am not saying that people in Hell can talk to people in Heaven but I don't consider God to be just people. We are not talking about that here.

 

JFox1; If Lazarus was awake in the bossom of Abraham, then he would of known what Abraham and the rich man were talking about. He would of heard the rich man say "I am tormented in these flames". What kind of rest would that be. On the other hand if he knew nothing then he would be at rest.

I have Scripture to back what I say, do you?

The reward comes to the soul at "being born again when we put on Christ". The best is yet to come when the body also will get a reward and the soul will get a perfect body in the resurrection.

 

BroBob,

I take it you are a Post Tribulation Second Coming Proponent?

I ask that because what you've said doesn't make sense in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Scenario because the people under the altar in Rev 6 are those slain for their testimony during the Tribulation...

IMHO, based on the exegesis of my own and my denom these are not the same group as Christians who die before the Tribulation starts.

And, even these beneath the altar appear to be awake and communicative...

I agree with Jfox1 when he says:

Who said he could? I know I didn't. Especially when scripture is quite clear that a great gulf existed to keep such a potentiality from happening.

Good! I think we agree on that part.

Probably not for the same reasons though.

I believe that Jesus lead captives captive in His train when He ascended. And that, that emptied Abraham's Bosom, allowing hell to enlarge her bounds and the gulf no longer exists because Abaraham's Bosom is now a part of the 3rd Heaven...

Making communication between the two realms not possible.

Huh? Your definition of Abraham's Bosom is "lazy Rest"? The absence of knowledge is "rest"?

I think that, to the contrary, knowing I am in Abraham's Bosom and protected from that torment would be Rest to my Soul. Thanking God it was settled for me...

And, there is no reason to believe that this was other than a one time occurance...

Besides, maybe Lazarus was out of earshot. Afterall a place big enough for all the righteous dead from Genesis to Jesus would have to be pretty big...

Personally, I think you're clutching at straws to use this argument to support soul sleep...

SMM

 

In the first place there is a lot of difference between the Tribulations and the Wrath of God. I tend to believe some get the two mixed up. I believe the The Trib will begin but those days were shortened for the "elects" sake or no flesh would be saved. That sir is Scripture.

I am not surprised you agree with Fox but because he and you know some denominations believe the souls will be running around Heaven don't make it so. Where is your Scripture? Just because you and Fox believe it is not enough.

These were questions to Claudia and not Fox or you. And I don't care if you agree or not!

Now remarks like that is what makes these discussion so harsh but we will continue.

In the first place it was not Abraham but Abraham being a type and figure of God. So to empty Abraham bossom is beyond me. What reason would Lazarus have going to Abraham's bossom, he was dead too.

Also, it didn't say Lazarus was "out and about" as you seem to dreamed up but it said he was in Abraham's bossom which is pretty plain. And if Lazarus was awake and could see and hear the torment you say that would be a comfort to him, Hogwash, would you get comfort watching someone being punished. If so, you need help.

 

SMM; In the previous post you even posted they were asleep and with God and now you say something different, which is it?