DEAD MEANS DEAD!

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Heavenly Pilgrim:
Claudia: It DOES matter what you believe about this subject because if you believe that the dead are in heaven and aware of what is going on around them then you are putting yourself into the position where you can be deceived by demonic spirits posing as dead relatives, giving counsel and advice.

HP: Please Claudia. Your logical deduction escapes the confines of good sense. When you over state your case by extrapolating the connection that exists in your imagination between a truth clearly exemplified clearly in Scripture and patent demonic activity, you have left the confines of reason and have entered into the realm of meaningless rhetoric.

Rest assured, those men with Jesus on the Mount of transfiguration were not mirages, nor were they sleep walkers. They were alive, conversing cognizant individuals living and reigning with Christ. To join the ranks of the living departed at rest but alive in Christ should be the real hope of every believer.

I dont care what kind of high-sounding language you try to use... My Bible says the Dead "know not anything" and I am not the kind of person who has to try to "intellectualize" everything until you end up saying "the dead DO know something" ok?

Use use your "common sense" and I prefer to go by the Scriptures. Moses and Elijah WERE in Heaven but only as types of those who fell asleep in Christ as were resurected (Moses) and those who will be alive when Jesus comes and never taste of death (Elijah). MY BIBLE says David DID NOT ascend into the heavens but is dead and buried unto this day.

Acts:2:34: For David is not ascended into the heavens

So I could just as easily accuse you of "leaving the confines of reason" GOT THAT?


GOOD SENSE tells me that if Jesus comes again at the second coming and receives us unto Himself so that "where I am, there ye may be also" then HELLO?? we werent in heaven to begin with!

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:3.

When and how will all the righteous, both living and dead, be with Christ?
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:16, 17.


Its just ridiculous this baloney you all have come up with that man is both in he grave asleep and in heaven awake. its like no matter what the Bible says, you're going to make it say what you WANT it to say, no matter what.

What must take place before Job could expect to awake?
"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will wait, till my change come." Job 14:14.

Where does he wait?
"If I wait, the grave is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness." Job 17:13.


You have reasoned and intellectualized yourself right out of keeping one of God's 10 Commandments, namely the Sabbath and decided you are going to put yourself in the place of God and decide it has been changed with no Biblical proof whatsoever, and so do I want YOUR "intellectual" reasoning?

NO THANKS! you can keep it!


Read this and read it well, because you are reasoning your way right out of our hope, namely the resurrection.

"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised; and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." 1 Cor. 15:16-18.

[ May 25, 2006, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Melanie]

I think I like Bro. Bob very much, he shoots straight and I can read his responses without glazing over.

Mind you I may not agree with it but I sure like his style.

 

[Claudia_T]

This idea that we die and go up to heaven to roam around up there and then maybe a few thousand years later --as a side note- we go to our graves and then get our immortal bodies is absolutely ABSURD.

and it is belittling the Resurrection Morning which is our hope.

Its like people will do absolutely anything to hold onto their preconceived notions.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
This idea that we die and go up to heaven to roam around up there and then maybe a few thousand years later --as a side note- we go to our graves and then get our immortal bodies is absolutely ABSURD.

and it is belittling the Resurrection Morning which is our hope.

Its like people will do absolutely anything to hold onto their preconceived notions.

I posted this for your sake Claudia. It is not as ridiculous as you think.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

quote:Must put on. The word here used (endunw) properly means, to go in, to envelope, to put on as a garment; and then to put on anything; as the soul is, as it were, clothed with, or invested with a body; and here it means, must be endued with, or furnished with. It is equivalent to saying that this corruptible must become incorruptible, and this mortal must become immortal. We must cease to be corruptible and mortal, and must become incorruptible and immortal. The righteous who remain till the coming of Christ, shall be at once changed, and invested, as Enoch and Elijah were, with incorruption and immortality. {Barnes)

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The Bible teaches that now we are clothed with an earthly body in which we groan--it is subject to disease, pain (ask my wife), infirmities of all kinds, and eventually death itself.
At death the body is buried and goes into the grave where if it lies there long enough decays into dust. However the soul goes to Heaven (or Hell), as the case may be.
At the resurrection (there are two of them) the body will put on immortality. The Scriptures I have posted you plainly show that soul puts on immortality. It puts on an immortal and glorified body. It does not put on a body in a vegetative state, neither is it a body in a vegetative state that is raised. The body that is raised has life. The life comes from the soul, the soul already been in heaven, in the presence of Christ, as is taught by Paul.
To be absent from the body is to present with Lord.
We groan in this body. The body is temporary. As soon as we lose this body we go and be with the Lord, and there await our resurrected bodies to be like Jesus. We are spirit beings. Someday we will receive our celestian bodies, but not until the resurrection takes place.

DHK

 

[JFox1]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Claudia_T:
This idea that we die and go up to heaven to roam around up there and then maybe a few thousand years later --as a side note- we go to our graves and then get our immortal bodies is absolutely ABSURD.

and it is belittling the Resurrection Morning which is our hope.

Its like people will do absolutely anything to hold onto their preconceived notions.

I posted this for your sake Claudia. It is not as ridiculous as you think.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

quote:Must put on. The word here used (endunw) properly means, to go in, to envelope, to put on as a garment; and then to put on anything; as the soul is, as it were, clothed with, or invested with a body; and here it means, must be endued with, or furnished with. It is equivalent to saying that this corruptible must become incorruptible, and this mortal must become immortal. We must cease to be corruptible and mortal, and must become incorruptible and immortal. The righteous who remain till the coming of Christ, shall be at once changed, and invested, as Enoch and Elijah were, with incorruption and immortality. {Barnes)

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The Bible teaches that now we are clothed with an earthly body in which we groan--it is subject to disease, pain (ask my wife), infirmities of all kinds, and eventually death itself.
At death the body is buried and goes into the grave where if it lies there long enough decays into dust. However the soul goes to Heaven (or Hell), as the case may be.
At the resurrection (there are two of them) the body will put on immortality. The Scriptures I have posted you plainly show that soul puts on immortality. It puts on an immortal and glorified body. It does not put on a body in a vegetative state, neither is it a body in a vegetative state that is raised. The body that is raised has life. The life comes from the soul, the soul already been in heaven, in the presence of Christ, as is taught by Paul.
To be absent from the body is to present with Lord.
We groan in this body. The body is temporary. As soon as we lose this body we go and be with the Lord, and there await our resurrected bodies to be like Jesus. We are spirit beings. Someday we will receive our celestian bodies, but not until the resurrection takes place.

DHK </font>[/QUOTE]AMEN!!!!! Soul sleep IS NOT AND WILL NEVER BE a legitimate part of Christian theology!

 

[Brother Bob]

Thank you, Briony-Gloriana;

Now, the Bible teaches that those God brings back are those that are "asleep" in Jesus. JFox; I know Abraham is awake but that don't tell me nothing about lazarus for he was at rest. As far as awaking the souls, the ones under the altar of God because of the word of God were disturbed or awakened and when God gave them the their white robes He told them to rest on for a little while. He didn't say go on through and about Heaven until then He said "rest on" a little while. I know there are those that are awake in Heaven but I think there are some complete people over there both soul and body but it was those that arose when Jesus did as the Bible teaches. I go by what the word says not something that makes me feel good.

JFox1;
AMEN!!!!! Soul sleep IS NOT AND WILL NEVER BE a legitimate part of Christian theology

Well, it is what the Scripture says and I can't change it for you. Even Apostle Paul called it a rest which seems to suggest "sleep" for when I rest here at home I hit the bed and close my eyes and forget about all the troubles for a short time. Now I believe that sleep in Heaven will only seem like one night but that is not Scripture but what I feel for if we sleep a restful sleep here it seems like a moment.

 

[JFox1]

You don't have to change the Scripture. If Abraham, who died, is awake in Heaven, why wouldn't Lazarus and the others? Soul sleep is a heresy!

As I said before, Christ didn't redeem us just so we can be trophies lying around in Heaven. There is plenty of activity in Heaven, and it will not be tiring and burdensome like the work we do here. Read the Book of Revelation 7:15 and others.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

1 Thessolonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This establishes that they are with God already. Otherwise they could not be brought with Him

1 Thessolonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Prevent here is more correctly rendered preceed or go before them... Hard to do if we who are alive are starting on earth to meet with those who are already with God ...

1 Thessolonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rise First. Literally means to stand up... Think of it this way... They have been bowing and worshipping in Heaven since they fell 'asleep'... The command goes forth to return and take dominion over the earth again... So, they Stand Up First...

It could also mean to stand up and be counted...

1 Thessolonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the heavenly mobilization gets into the Physical realm of the air and clouds... Then we who are alive will be 'Caught Up'...


I note something here that I had never considered before...

When do we get our Glorified Bodies?

Is there any Scripture that says (outright) that for the believer death doesn't involved the putting off of mortality and the putting on of immortality?

That is, as stated previously, this body is but a seed that dies, is buried, and rots into dust...

It is not the same body we wear in heaven...

Who'd want to?

So, what says (outright) that we don't have an immortal body while we await the second coming?

SMM

 

[JFox1]

SpiritualMadMan,

Some people say we do get some sort of body while in heaven awaiting the resurrection. Here is a link to a web site about the afterlife and it mentions the possibility of getting a new body while awaiting the resurrection: http://www.epm.org/articles/heavenqa.html

 

[Mary Diana Lynn Harper]

Thank you Br. Bob and JFox1 you proved my point with claudia T I am sure glad you all came along, I believe Claudia is trying to convience herself of her interpertation when we all see the Bible in our own interpertations. Each and every person who is Christ filled has the right to question the Bible, it is not only our right but our duty as Strong Christians to Believe in the Word and as Soulders for Christ question and discuss the Word. He will show us the way and our understanding comes through Him. Weather we think alike or not.

 

[Brother Bob]

JFox1; You need to be careful calling Scripture heresy;


1 Corinthians, chapter 15
"18": Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
We know the body perishes regardless so the above Scripture does not speak of the body.


1 Corinthians, chapter 15
35": But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

"36": Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

"37": And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

"38": But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

The body

1 Thessalonians, chapter 4
13": But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

"14": For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Seems to me for God to "bring" them with Him they must be with Him." That is not heresy, you need to be careful JFox1 you are entitled to your belief and that is up to you but you could be wrong and if you are then you are calling God's word heresy!

 

[Claudia_T]

Lazarus and the Rich Man is simply a parable that Jesus used to make a point.

Let's look at some of the facts:

---Abraham's bosom is not in heaven
Hebrews 11:8-10,16

8: By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9: By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
16: But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


---People in Hell cannot talk to those who are in Heaven
Isaiah 65:17

17: For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


---People are rewarded at Christ's Second Coming, not at death
Revelation 22:11,12

11: He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

---The lost are punished at the end of the world, not when they die
Matthew 13:40-42

40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[ May 25, 2006, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Claudia_T]

Lazarus and the Rich Man

God speaks in ways sometimes that are not supposed to be taken LITERALLY.. to make a point.


Judges 9:8-15
8: The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
9: But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
10: And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
11: But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?
12: Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us.
13: And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
14: Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
15: And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.


One needs to gather together and study all of the various Bible texts about a subject and then if a parable such as this doesnt match up with anything, you shouldnt just toss out all the rest of the scriptures and use the symbolic parable as your foundation for your doctrine on a subject.

 

[JFox1]

I stand by what I said. Soul sleep is a false teaching and a heresy! Most denominations do teach there is a conscious afterlife in either heaven or hell. Are you saying all of these churches are wrong and you're right? Only certain groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrong, and Seventh-Day Adventists teach soul sleep. That should set off alarms right then and there that there is something wrong with that teaching. I do not call Scripture heresy but certain interpretations most certainly are!

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
One needs to gather together and study all of the various Bible texts about a subject and then if a parable such as this doesnt match up with anything, you shouldnt just toss out all the rest of the scriptures and use the symbolic parable as your foundation for your doctrine on a subject.

Problem is Claudia...

We've done that...

Shown you that...

Lazarus was a real person...

He died and was raised just as in the Story Jesus told.

Given this context, of a real Lazarus who died and was raised, it is reasonable to assume that there was also a Rich Man and that Jesus was in fact giving a glimpse beyond the veil as to how things were before He ascended...

Is your faith built on such a foundation that if any one part fails the whole building falls?

Paul wrote:
1 Corinthians 2:2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Why?

Because the more stuff we add to the basic message as "essentials" the more likely one of those "essentials" are to be found 'less than perfect', shipwrecking someones faith...

But, by keeping the message simple, and limited to the absolute essentials, based solely on absolutes...

A faith built on that can not fail...

And, as some of us have learned on this Board there is a nother reason...

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Now if this is true of Jew and Gentile Believers...

How much more so should it be true of Modern Day Christians?

So, if your hypothesis of when, where and how we get our Glorified Bodies fails...

Will you faith fail with it?

Because you sure argue for it as if your life depends on convincing us of it...

SMM

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, just like you said Lazarus was awake and you have no knowledge of that whatsoever. I will stick with the Scriptures thank you. If you so sure JFox1, tell me about the souls under the alter of God. Tell me about the ones asleep in Jesus that God Himself will be bringing. Tell me about a rest that Paul was going to enter at the point of death. Most of all, tell me what the soul is doing in Heaven with Scripture and that they are just the souls. Please

Someone please show me a Scripture where Abraham could send Lazarus to Hell to take some water. Show me a Sripture where Abraham had the power to even look into Hell. I certainly am not saying that people in Hell can talk to people in Heaven but I don't consider God to be just people. We are not talking about that here.

 

[Brother Bob]

JFox1; If Lazarus was awake in the bossom of Abraham, then he would of known what Abraham and the rich man were talking about. He would of heard the rich man say "I am tormented in these flames". What kind of rest would that be. On the other hand if he knew nothing then he would be at rest.

I have Scripture to back what I say, do you?

The reward comes to the soul at "being born again when we put on Christ". The best is yet to come when the body also will get a reward and the soul will get a perfect body in the resurrection.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

BroBob,

I take it you are a Post Tribulation Second Coming Proponent?

I ask that because what you've said doesn't make sense in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Scenario because the people under the altar in Rev 6 are those slain for their testimony during the Tribulation...

IMHO, based on the exegesis of my own and my denom these are not the same group as Christians who die before the Tribulation starts.

And, even these beneath the altar appear to be awake and communicative...

I agree with Jfox1 when he says:

JFox1
posted May 25, 2006 12:59 PM

I stand by what I said. Soul sleep is a false teaching and a heresy! Most denominations do teach there is a conscious afterlife in either heaven or hell. Are you saying all of these churches are wrong and you're right? Only certain groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrong, and Seventh-Day Adventists teach soul sleep. That should set off alarms right then and there that there is something wrong with that teaching. I do not call Scripture heresy but certain interpretations most certainly are!

Brother Bob posted May 25, 2006 01:41 PM

Someone please show me a Scripture where Abraham could send Lazarus to Hell to take some water. Show me a Sripture where Abraham had the power to even look into Hell.

Who said he could? I know I didn't. Especially when scripture is quite clear that a great gulf existed to keep such a potentiality from happening.

BroBob cont'd:
I certainly am not saying that people in Hell can talk to people in Heaven but I don't consider God to be just people. We are not talking about that here.

Good! I think we agree on that part.

Probably not for the same reasons though.

I believe that Jesus lead captives captive in His train when He ascended. And that, that emptied Abraham's Bosom, allowing hell to enlarge her bounds and the gulf no longer exists because Abaraham's Bosom is now a part of the 3rd Heaven...

Making communication between the two realms not possible.

BroBob cont'd:
If Lazarus was awake in the bossom of Abraham, then he would of known what Abraham and the rich man were talking about. He would of heard the rich man say "I am tormented in these flames". What kind of rest would that be. On the other hand if he knew nothing then he would be at rest

Huh? Your definition of Abraham's Bosom is "lazy Rest"? The absence of knowledge is "rest"?

I think that, to the contrary, knowing I am in Abraham's Bosom and protected from that torment would be Rest to my Soul. Thanking God it was settled for me...

And, there is no reason to believe that this was other than a one time occurance...

Besides, maybe Lazarus was out of earshot. Afterall a place big enough for all the righteous dead from Genesis to Jesus would have to be pretty big...

Personally, I think you're clutching at straws to use this argument to support soul sleep...

SMM

 

[Brother Bob]

BroBob,

I take it you are a Post Tribulation Second Coming Proponent?

In the first place there is a lot of difference between the Tribulations and the Wrath of God. I tend to believe some get the two mixed up. I believe the The Trib will begin but those days were shortened for the "elects" sake or no flesh would be saved. That sir is Scripture.

I agree with Jfox1 when he says:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JFox1
posted May 25, 2006 12:59 PM

I stand by what I said. Soul sleep is a false teaching and a heresy! Most denominations do teach there is a conscious afterlife in either heaven or hell. Are you saying all of these churches are wrong and you're right? Only certain groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrong, and Seventh-Day Adventists teach soul sleep. That should set off alarms right then and there that there is something wrong with that teaching. I do not call Scripture heresy but certain interpretations most certainly are

I am not surprised you agree with Fox but because he and you know some denominations believe the souls will be running around Heaven don't make it so. Where is your Scripture? Just because you and Fox believe it is not enough.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brother Bob posted May 25, 2006 01:41 PM

Someone please show me a Scripture where Abraham could send Lazarus to Hell to take some water. Show me a Sripture where Abraham had the power to even look into Hell.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who said he could? I know I didn't. Especially when scripture is quite clear that a great gulf existed to keep such a potentiality from happening.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BroBob cont'd:
I certainly am not saying that people in Hell can talk to people in Heaven but I don't consider God to be just people. We are not talking about that here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good! I think we agree on that part.

Probably not for the same reasons though.

These were questions to Claudia and not Fox or you. And I don't care if you agree or not!

I believe that Jesus lead captives captive in His train when He ascended. And that, that emptied Abraham's Bosom, allowing hell to enlarge her bounds and the gulf no longer exists because Abaraham's Bosom is now a part of the 3rd Heaven...

Making communication between the two realms not possible.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BroBob cont'd:
If Lazarus was awake in the bossom of Abraham, then he would of known what Abraham and the rich man were talking about. He would of heard the rich man say "I am tormented in these flames". What kind of rest would that be. On the other hand if he knew nothing then he would be at rest

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Huh? Your definition of Abraham's Bosom is "lazy Rest"? The absence of knowledge is "rest"?

I think that, to the contrary, knowing I am in Abraham's Bosom and protected from that torment would be Rest to my Soul. Thanking God it was settled for me...

And, there is no reason to believe that this was other than a one time occurance...

Besides, maybe Lazarus was out of earshot. Afterall a place big enough for all the righteous dead from Genesis to Jesus would have to be pretty big...

Personally, I think you're clutching at straws to use this argument to support soul sleep...

Now remarks like that is what makes these discussion so harsh but we will continue.

In the first place it was not Abraham but Abraham being a type and figure of God. So to empty Abraham bossom is beyond me. What reason would Lazarus have going to Abraham's bossom, he was dead too.

Also, it didn't say Lazarus was "out and about" as you seem to dreamed up but it said he was in Abraham's bossom which is pretty plain. And if Lazarus was awake and could see and hear the torment you say that would be a comfort to him, Hogwash, would you get comfort watching someone being punished. If so, you need help.

 

[Brother Bob]

SMM;
1 Thessolonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This establishes that they are with God already. Otherwise they could not be brought with Him

SMM; In the previous post you even posted they were asleep and with God and now you say something different, which is it?